Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Prevent bookmarks within 120km of a gate. Fixed.

Another note on logistics. In both the world wars the germans tried desperately to cut off england's supply line from america - the north atlantic shipping lanes. The frigate class ship was(re)invented as a long range escort to defend against u-boat attacks. Ships were lost on both sides but the supply line was kept open and England prevailed. Without those supplies, they would have lost to the invaders.

That's the kind of EvE I want to be playing. Content for small fleets raiding supply lines to cut off a foe and force a retreat, or a fight.

At the moment, logistics is almost untouchable and it perpetuates the fights to the point only boredom causes a win or a loss.

This is a total driveby comment on my part, but... I call it amazon.com

Sure, it's not your neighbor Timmy the Truck Driver, (although it might be!) but there isn't much difference between these two setups:
1) Order stuff on web site; pay
2) Amazon Fulfillment Services puts together a package at a distribution center
3) UPS moves the package from the distribution center to the local post office
4) UPS has the USPS do final-mile deliveries because it's cheaper for them
5) Package arrives on your doorstep

1) Buy stuff on purchasing alt in Jita
2) Contract stuff to Red Frog Freight
3) Red Frog Freight transports package to alliance hisec JF endpoint
4) Alliance JF service jumps stuff from hisec to your home in nullsec
5) Remote-contract stuff from purchasing alt to your nullsec character

Sometimes alliance freight even goes all the way to a hub, which would be equivalent (in this example) to Amazon just handing things straight to the postal service.

Sure, it's not just Timmy the Truck Driver, but that's just because people like to go home at the end of the day. If the fulfillment center were close, he absolutely could go get the packages for you and all your neighbors and deliver them... assuming he was the one Amazon contracted with, of course.

So, rather than criticize further I'm going to propose an alternative set of changes that I believe will better resolve the issues raised by the OP. These suggestions will be based on three core concepts:

1) Logistics to deep null via JF should be possible. However, that does not mean it should be cost effective.
2) Supers, Titans, Carriers, and Dreads are currently the most mobile combat ships in the game. This does not make sense.
3) Null sec industry needs buffs to low-end production beyond what is proposed in Crius.

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The proposed changes are:

(A) Cap all pilots and cap ships to 11 LY of Travel or per day.

Example: If Alice jumps an archon 5 LY, both Alice and the Archon are now limited to an additional 6 LY on that day. If Alice leaves the Archon, and Bob hops into that Archon, Bob inherits the Archon's limitation of 6 LY for that day. If Alice were to hop into a Nyx, that Nyx would inherit Alice's limitation of 6 LY for the day as well.

So If someone moved a Hel 11 LY and then either switched to another ship or put another pilot in the Hel, neither the new pilot or the new ship would be able to jump anywhere.

(B) Titan Bridging uses the same cap. If you make a bridge that spans 6 LY, you loose 6 of your LY for that day.

(C) JF fuel consumption and fuel bay are both increased by 100% over Crius values.

(D) Titans and Supers loose 50% of their raw HP. They also loose EWAR immunity (standard points,webs, Tracking disruptors, ECM, damps all work against supers and titans).

(E) Titan tracking is buffed. Due to loss of Ewar immunity, Titans can also receive remote tracking links. Titans and Supers would be able to receive remote sebos as well.

(F) Increase the yield of low end minerals (e.g. Trit) mined and refined in nullsec such that mining low ends in nullsec is significantly more viable. Say, increase low-end yield by a factor of five.

(G) Station destruction, because it needs to happen.

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These changes would result in a few immediate consequences. First, it would Take no less than 5 days for an entity to deploy supers or titans from say Etherium Reach to Delve or Aridia. Once Deployed, said said supers, titans, and caps would be limited to a maximum range of one 5.5 LY hotdrop + 5.5 LY return trip per day unless POS's had been sorted in the target system negating the need for a return trip. Obviously, multiple smaller jumps could also occur instead. Likewise, your ally's supers wouldn't be able to cross the galaxy in an instant to save you if you **** up.

Second, If a smaller entity knows that the bulk of the N3PL and CFC supers are deployed 20 LY away, smaller entities will be more inclined to use their shiny toys for stupid things. Effectively, you reduce the "And Then PL Dropped Supers" effect and give the little guy a chance to do something stupid.

Third, Titans especially will be something to be feared. While the new tracking Titan is more powerful than before, it is also VERY limited in effective range. And it needs lots of subcap support to deal with Ewar that WILL be present. Insufficient support = overwhelmed by ewar.

Fourth, Subcaps will be the kings of mobility again. If you can't take on their supers and Caps directly, attack a target +11 LY away. If hostile supers move across the galaxy (50+ LY) to invade your space, it will take take them a minimum of 5 day to return to their home regions. Send a couple squads of subcaps to reinforce their home regions while the enemies' super fleet is away. A nerf to sov structure EHP may also be in order.

Fifth, JF Logistics would be possible, but expensive. If an alliance was inclined to move to Stain (for example) they could make the move from Amarr lowsec to Stain in a single trip. But that trip would cost them 300 Mil per round trip from the edge of Amarr Lowsec to the edge of Stain. Costs would increase the deeper they went. In this way, you could initially take some combat and industrial ships, but once you unpack you'll want to setup mining for all of the ores that you need (including mining the new improved low ends) and production for all of your ships.

T2 Mats and non-regional fuel would have to be imported, but a JF can actually hold quite a bit of those, so it wouldn't be *that* expensive to setup. The vast majority of towers would probably shift to regional ice, which isn't necessarily a bad thing as it adds a certain amount of flavor imo.

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I'm aware some of the changes can be gamed by having multiple different pilots sitting in different caps/jf's per account, however I believe this problem will be largely self limiting. JFs will be an expensive asset to use frequently, and the improved low ends should make nullsec mining and production far more localized and attractive. Carrot and stick, if you will. No matter how many combat caps you have, the total area you cover per day with each cap+cap pilot group will be limited.

Anyway, I'm sure the idea is terrible and the post is far too long, but that's what the Eve-O forums are for, so why not?

There should be more to eve than just caps. If there isn't maybe it is time to play another game? Maybe there's a better way to deal with capital power projection, but so far I haven't seen it.

Perhaps, but if you know they're coming and can't defeat their supers, why not be somewhere else? Say hitting your opponents money moons or their home regions with subcaps? Lots of options appear on the table when "and then X dropped supers" isn't the norm anymore.

Also, the people living in omist would be way more screwed with your changes than my changes, I think.

So get a few friends to damp his ass down to zero lock range. No Ewar immunity.

You are of course correct. My proposed changes are far from perfect. However, I think the little guy would be far better off with a jump freighter that can actually do the whole jump freighting thing it does now, even if it is more expensive. As opposed to the "you can only hit neighboring systems" which would limit all the little guys in eve to low sec, syndicate, or renting.

Edit: With regards to supers and titans, you have a fair point. But they ARE a huge part of the problem with the current situation in eve. That needs to be recognized, and I don't think having super blobs take gates is the answer.

Mynnna to the rescue.

Im curious to hear what roleplayers have to say about these changes. Any CVA or etc in the thread?

The topic of this thread is power projection, not alliance/coalition size. The latter has no real boundary based on game mechanics so I just can't help but think you are trying to bring in your own personal bias on this.

I agree with most of what you are saying, a number of pages back I made this point myself. Create incentives to utilize null space, even the low true sec systems. Trying to take away current means of doing something hoping players will then start to utilize their space strikes me as particularly risky, in that some people might decide not to do that and go play another game.

Sheesh, 3 days ago this was 7 pages long, now its at 34! I love that we are talking about Sov changes and making that part of the game new again!

Quick few ideas here:

For power projection: Add a random decay/destabilization factor to Cyno's. You never know how many ships will make it through before it collapses. On top of this, if there was a minimal distance that the next cyno could be lit at, like maybe 5 AU or something, then it would slow things down abit. Also, perhaps a max # of cyno fields able to be lit in a system would make things spread out as well. What this seems to cause, from my perspective, is that the group has to be more spread out, and in that way, more vulnerable. Also, a single cyno field in a system (although it could be easily abused) means that if you want to get the next cyno lit quickly, you'll use a recon for it (ship specialization is good, m'kay!) It also means the possibility of ships arriving in Waves rather than on big drop. Maybe that would be nice for the server.

A far as the single cyno idea go, perhaps one is a little steep, maybe 2 or 3? Something like that. I think for sure, the fact that a cyno could all of a sudden die out once too many ships have passed through (and nobody knows EXACTLY how many ships/how much mass that is) could make moving large fleets difficult. It probably wouldn't affect the small guy that much, or the logistician using a JF. Food for thought.

Also, somewhere in pages 8-10, somebody mentioned, and I strongly agree, that sov should be based on the space holders' activities in the system. I won't shamelessly link my original proposal, suffice to say, I roughly fleshed out a system that does exactly that. If renters or groups that are focuses solely on one aspect of eve (PL and PvP for example) it would be easy enough in a "points for sovereignty" system to let "friendly" (standings based relationships) groups acrue points for your sov, without actually giving them sov. Could be an interesting income method if you think about it... "We promise to get your sov index up by 200% in the next 2 weeks, the cost is a low low 1.5B... )

So, thats it for now

I think people should know that capital proliferation is gonna get pretty sexy soon, as with coming changes it will be faster, cheaper, and easier to start building capitals for new people than ever before in Null-sec with the current changes to Amarr Outposts.

450mil or less Carriers at production cost.

Have a nice Day.