These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Changes to SOV , Power Projection & Nullsec Stagnation

First post First post First post
Author
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#661 - 2014-07-10 15:00:48 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Zetaomega333 wrote:
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Zetaomega333 wrote:
Manny have you ever moved 10+ JF loads in one sitting of ships gear minerals and just general **** around? Doing this would kill your logistics core and i dont mean logi pilots i mean the real backbones of pvpers and thats the ones that bring and build the ships and move the **** for them. I dont think a single pilot who has ever flown a jf want to go back to pre capital ship days of nullsec, taking a JF gate to gate all the way to highsec? I would sooner stab my eyeballs out. It would be insanely easy for people to just permacamp the inbound and outbound systems to and from nullsec as there arnt that many.

[snip to save space/characters]



M8 I once moved 11 freighter loads of war stocks from lowsec khanid to the bottom of stain where it borders Esoteria. O I did that with 1 single freighter ( my own) on my character Thronde which I sold to some guy back in 2006. Alliance mates and I did it and it took a whole weekend with one freighter. It was for a planned invasion against Prime Orbital System by my alliance Firmus Ixion. We were too be the vanguard into Eso for Band of Brothers. The invasion fell apart and too this day I still have a bunch of assets from that move in the bottom of Stain. Also when Firmus Ixion use to have mining ops in FAT-GP ( there were no other stations in catch other than V2-VC2 and 5-N) I would move freighter loads of minerals from FAT to H74.

Furthermore when I was in 0utbreak I handled logistics for a time when we were very nomadic. Carriers stuffed with Itty 5s full of small tractor beams. We moved them into null refined them and then built BS hulls. So yes I have done quite a bit of logistics in my day. I just did it before most of the current player base knew what Eve even was.


Funny story I once had to evade a hostile gang in 4-07 while moving minerals from the FAT station to H74 to refine them. I warped my freighter to a deep safe that was 1200au out. It took me a hour to warp to the safe lol.


So you want to wish this on the current logistic backbone? A run to jita in a ship that holds 340k m3 and back would not only take hours and hours it would require handholding on alot of pvpers, Its bad enough how the majority of pvpers **** on those who do this grunt work allready but for these logistics pilots to rely on more people? ALso the game was much smaller back then no? There are a great deal more people now, who i know would take great pleasure locking down the entrances and exists to and from nullsec. As it is ccp has made nullsec completely reliant on empire to the point to where you can mine almost all you need but 3 of the needed minerals for ships and have to ship most of that down. Racial ice would have to be a thing of the past, Racial salvage as well. Jump freighters would need to massivly change while either getting bigger hulls or becomine dust collecting peices of ****. There is so much work here ccp would need to do and they allready balk at rewriting pos code why do you think for a minute they would put the effort into this?


Do you think they want to go out of business?



I think part of what Manny is getting at, and he can comment if I'm wrong, is that part of his goal is to make current logistics alot less important. That is instead of making a Jita run to buy 500 cruiser hulls and move them out to null, you'd source those cruiser hulls out in null itself. Now logistics would entail moving the hulls from your production yards to where you need them, which in theory could be shorter distance. Maybe.

Note in Manny's initial set of posts he talks about mining ops in null. This has two benefits:

1. Logistics in its current form could change and be reduced dramatically.
2. These guys out running around in mining ships, freighters, industrials and so forth make for juicy targets.

The latter will hopefully draw in hostile gangs, which in turn would provide an opportunity for a defense fleet. In other words, more opportunity for small to medium sized engagements.

Right now the current state of war is that you often have to out bore the other side. Why? Because it is nearly impossible to disrupt current logistics/supply processes. With neutral alts, jumping station-to-staion, this is the only option. You could try hitting their money moons and renters, but that is often just slightly less boring.

However, if null sec alliances have to actually use their space much more than they currently do, then you could cause lots of problems for an alliance/coalition simply by roaming through their space. If they don't form up and try to defend their space, the people who use the space to produce hulls, keep the JB systems running, keep the various POSes running, and even other money making ventures will be shut down. Keep that up long enough and things could go really badly for that alliance/coalition.

Currently though, if a hostile gang comes into your space turtling up and waiting for them to leave (of boredom) is a pretty decent strategy. Yeah, you can't rat all that much, but if they hang around long enough jump clone to empire and run missions (yeah it sucks, but hey at least the isk still flows to some extent). Sure they could hit a POS or three, but with the current mechanics you have time to call on allies and schedule an OP to defend/repair the POS. There is very little downside to turtling up. This makes for very boring game play.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#662 - 2014-07-10 15:03:01 UTC
DNSBLACK wrote:
http://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/07/01/communities-vs-networks-to-which-do-you-belong/

Please take the time to read this article. This is what is wrong with force projection. Networks are shrinking the sand box for communities to grow in. We use to be a game all based on communities now we are a game dominated by networks.



Great article.. Explains exactly what I mean when I said no one is a member of a 10 K community of friends. Because such thing cannot exist.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#663 - 2014-07-10 15:07:38 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
No one here wants to kill CFC, NCPL and any of their pet alliances.


I just want to say that i am in favor of killing CFC, NCPL and all of their pet alliances.
I just don't think that game mechanics should be the ones to do it.

However i also believe that CFC, NCPL and all the pets are not using the space they own in a way that is conducive to an expanding EVE.
I think that these entities own sov in places they do not occupy, rent or otherwise use.
Any sort of usage based sov would kill large swaths of sov from many sov owners in null, and thats something that i think is needed.
I haven't seen any arguments as to why CFC and the other alliances should continue in their current forms, the two coalition Null being the main issue of the thread no? Wouldnt 10k players in an alliance be able to support themselves and nominally the space they actually want to use? or am i missing something about how many people in that 10k actually want to play in nullsec?

Im not sure how to counter the force projection issues that are in evidence. Reducing jump ranges doesn't fix anything that i can see, it only hurts smaller entities trying to gain a foot hold. while larger groups will simply take strategic locations for the burden of additional jumps.

Even if the smaller alliances that i would liek to see in null become coalitions or are simply extensions of the existing coalitions, adding usages and distance from centers would make owning sov a thing that had to be worked at and induce more raiding and fleets in null. having to be marginaly active within your own space would go a long way to getting people to log in and find pvp activity. If i know that a system has to have activity to remain sov, there's a much greater chance that im going to find a fight there.

On the other side of this issue is the complete lack of ability to secure space in any way, cloaked Cyno ships are the bane of null miners, I dont think there has been a month without a nerf cloaks thread since the introduction of cloaks into the game. This too i am not sure how to fix. I suggest that cov ops cloaks and regular cynos be mutually exclusive, this does not stop covert cynos from cov ops ships, nor does this stop someone from using a mobile depot to swap a covert travel cloak to a standard cloak and cyno once in the target system, this just changes the mechanics of hot dropping someone. This does not make a system secure, nor does it keep drops from happening.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#664 - 2014-07-10 15:19:44 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#665 - 2014-07-10 15:56:48 UTC
It is adorable, seeing all the attempts to artificially limit the size of an organization.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#666 - 2014-07-10 16:01:22 UTC
Querns wrote:
It is adorable, seeing all the attempts to artificially limit the size of an organization.



I can say its adorable seeing the attempts to justify a situation that benefits only some in disregard for the problem we are trying to solve.

As I said, I understand that fear is part of human nature and people want to band together to compensate for their sense of lack of security. But this game must be fun, and super large blocks are NOT fun.

If they cannot be constrained, or gently pushed towards splitting, then there is nothign to do here. And in here I mean in whole eve online 0.0 future. Be happy to sit in your tomb of boredom. But other people are more capable of putting the welfare of the game they like ahead of their own fear of having to face difficulties in game

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#667 - 2014-07-10 16:07:33 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Querns wrote:
It is adorable, seeing all the attempts to artificially limit the size of an organization.



I can say its adorable seeing the attempts to justify a situation that benefits only some in disregard for the problem we are trying to solve.

As I said, I understand that fear is part of human nature and people want to band together to compensate for their sense of lack of security. But this game must be fun, and super large blocks are NOT fun.

If they cannot be constrained, or gently pushed towards splitting, then there is nothign to do here. And in here I mean in whole eve online 0.0 future. Be happy to sit in your tomb of boredom. But other people are more capable of putting the welfare of the game they like ahead of their own fear of having to face difficulties in game

I dunno -- I have quite a bit of fun being in a large organization. I have opportunities that are unmatched in smaller-scale play. For instance, I probably would not have been a part of this if I had not been part of the organizations to which I belong.

Also, have you considered that it isn't CCP's job to split up large organizations? It may very well be that it is the obligation of the players who play the game to do that job. Certainly, organized subversion from within is going to be a lot more effective than any hamfisted external attempt to limit player organization size.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#668 - 2014-07-10 16:19:44 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

I think part of what Manny is getting at, and he can comment if I'm wrong, is that part of his goal is to make current logistics alot less important. That is instead of making a Jita run to buy 500 cruiser hulls and move them out to null, you'd source those cruiser hulls out in null itself. Now logistics would entail moving the hulls from your production yards to where you need them, which in theory could be shorter distance. Maybe.

Note in Manny's initial set of posts he talks about mining ops in null. This has two benefits:

1. Logistics in its current form could change and be reduced dramatically.
2. These guys out running around in mining ships, freighters, industrials and so forth make for juicy targets.

The latter will hopefully draw in hostile gangs, which in turn would provide an opportunity for a defense fleet. In other words, more opportunity for small to medium sized engagements.


The fundamental distinction, I think, between Manny one the one side and Mynnna and myself, among others, on the other is how you get to this point. I think we all agree that we'd like 0.0 to be more self-sufficient and less dependent on the pipeline to empire.

However, Manny tends to approach this by saying "sever the pipeline, then people will be forced to adapt and produce locally". I think we argue that people need to be incentivized to produce locally, and then they simply won't need that logistical backbone anymore and you can start slowly nerfing it. I think that our approach is better because I think there's already too little incentive to try to break into null, so you can't force behaviors by making it harder. Instead you've got to do things like the Crius industry buffs that make people start to reorganize how they make things and create more local 0.0 mining and industry.

The regionality of certain resources poses an unavoidable problem to really killing the logistical links. Manny solves that through essentially writing it out of the game - alchemy, NPC, whatever, the end result is that the interregion trade is effectively killed off. I disagree with that, I think that the interlocking economy is neat and that properly buffed 0.0 industry will make it far more expensive to import finished products than build locally, so you'll only use importing for regional trade.

A much better solution for Manny's "no jumps allowed" thing than alchemy or npcs, incidentally, would be a JF variant that could only hold fuel or only hold moongoo that retained long-jump capability. I don't like that idea, but it's much better than just axing trade entirely.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#669 - 2014-07-10 16:23:49 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Querns wrote:
It is adorable, seeing all the attempts to artificially limit the size of an organization.



I can say its adorable seeing the attempts to justify a situation that benefits only some in disregard for the problem we are trying to solve.

As I said, I understand that fear is part of human nature and people want to band together to compensate for their sense of lack of security. But this game must be fun, and super large blocks are NOT fun.

If they cannot be constrained, or gently pushed towards splitting, then there is nothign to do here. And in here I mean in whole eve online 0.0 future. Be happy to sit in your tomb of boredom. But other people are more capable of putting the welfare of the game they like ahead of their own fear of having to face difficulties in game


I have not seen anyone with well-thought out ideas - even ones I disagree with entirely - need to resort to things like the above. I have, however, seen people with poorly thought out ideas resort to the above when a hole is poked in their idea.

If you want to be able to discuss a subject like this you need to be able to realize when someone else is right and you need to come up with a new idea. You keep arguing that your ideas are the only workable ones besides the status quo. They're not, and they're not very good ideas. They have gigantic problems that people keep pointing out and you simply petulantly say that those people must be bad people. Even if that's true, guess what: we're in this game, and we will continue to be bad people and just evade your change in the exact way we tell you we're going to do so. If we tell you that your idea is trivial to evade and people will see an advantage in doing so, then that means if it was implemented we would trivially evade it and stomp the crap out of anyone silly enough to not evade it. Anytime your idea relies on us playing poorly it will not work.
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#670 - 2014-07-10 16:27:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Karash Amerius
How about getting rid of WTZ as well as blocking any sort of tacticals 30km from a gate?

I mean...if we really do want to make Eve bigger.

(Sorry, could not resist) /bittervet

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#671 - 2014-07-10 16:28:29 UTC
Karash Amerius wrote:
How about getting rid of WTZ as well as blocking any sort of tacticals 30km from a gate?

I mean...if we really do want to make Eve smaller.

(Sorry, could not resist) /bittervet

Smell that? It's the bookmarks table catching fire.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#672 - 2014-07-10 16:50:27 UTC
Just a couple quick thoughts, based on Mynna's link to the nullsec whiteboards.

1. "Bigger ships should move slower."

This gets violated massively by Capital ships of all sizes, which are faster than anything else in moving long distances due to jump drives. Adding cooldowns to the ships is impractical, as it can be sidestepped by having more ships. Tying cooldowns to pilots is harder to dodge, though not impossible. Other ideas I found intriguing were some sort of "jump travel time", wherein your jump takes X amount of time per LY traveled, and another where your jump time is scaled by TiDi in target system / max jump range.

Essentially anything to slow down the movement of capital ships / jump enabled travel is a good thing, as it helps return balance to this part of the equation.

2. "Diseconomies of scale."

Again, there ain't any. EVE has essentially devolved into N+1 for nullsec. How you create those diseconomies of scale I don't know, but I do like the idea of no permanent resources / resources getting depleted. Especially with current permanent sources of income such as moons. Posters here are right that cost alone isn't a barrier in EVE, and there's plenty of ways to get around arbitrary limits to organization size. I do feel that adding a logistical burden to sov beyond pure isk would go a long way to disincentivizing scale - forcing alliances to fuel their iHubs and TCUs, with escalating requirements based on system upgrades, would introduce a logistical burden to the equation that would need to be addressed. Obviously organizational skill would be key here, but man hours would still have to be devoted to the effort... and those are the hardest things to find in EVE.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#673 - 2014-07-10 17:34:28 UTC
Karash Amerius wrote:
How about getting rid of WTZ as well as blocking any sort of tacticals 30km from a gate?

I mean...if we really do want to make Eve bigger.

(Sorry, could not resist) /bittervet



Sorry i cannot resist.. People will make a bookmark 100km behind gate and warp to 100 ;)


Only way to have a non warp to zero would be making ALL warps imprecise by around 10 km.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#674 - 2014-07-10 18:06:49 UTC
Querns wrote:
I dunno -- I have quite a bit of fun being in a large organization. I have opportunities that are unmatched in smaller-scale play. For instance, I probably would not have been a part of this if I had not been part of the organizations to which I belong.

Nice troll.

For those unaware. The above was a massive exploit. CCP seized all the assets from it and those involved were punished.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#675 - 2014-07-10 18:17:22 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Querns wrote:
I dunno -- I have quite a bit of fun being in a large organization. I have opportunities that are unmatched in smaller-scale play. For instance, I probably would not have been a part of this if I had not been part of the organizations to which I belong.

Nice troll.

For those unaware. The above was a massive exploit. CCP seized all the assets from it and those involved were punished.

You, too, are adorable.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#676 - 2014-07-10 18:27:16 UTC
Anthar Thebess
#677 - 2014-07-10 22:20:16 UTC
Bump for CCP, just to refresh visibility of this topic.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#678 - 2014-07-10 22:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Querns wrote:
It is adorable, seeing all the attempts to artificially limit the size of an organization.



I can say its adorable seeing the attempts to justify a situation that benefits only some in disregard for the problem we are trying to solve.

As I said, I understand that fear is part of human nature and people want to band together to compensate for their sense of lack of security. But this game must be fun, and super large blocks are NOT fun.

If they cannot be constrained, or gently pushed towards splitting, then there is nothign to do here. And in here I mean in whole eve online 0.0 future. Be happy to sit in your tomb of boredom. But other people are more capable of putting the welfare of the game they like ahead of their own fear of having to face difficulties in game


I have not seen anyone with well-thought out ideas - even ones I disagree with entirely - need to resort to things like the above. I have, however, seen people with poorly thought out ideas resort to the above when a hole is poked in their idea.

If you want to be able to discuss a subject like this you need to be able to realize when someone else is right and you need to come up with a new idea. You keep arguing that your ideas are the only workable ones besides the status quo. They're not, and they're not very good ideas. They have gigantic problems that people keep pointing out and you simply petulantly say that those people must be bad people. Even if that's true, guess what: we're in this game, and we will continue to be bad people and just evade your change in the exact way we tell you we're going to do so. If we tell you that your idea is trivial to evade and people will see an advantage in doing so, then that means if it was implemented we would trivially evade it and stomp the crap out of anyone silly enough to not evade it. Anytime your idea relies on us playing poorly it will not work.


The goon tag under his name basically put a lot of salt on any opinion he states defendign the status quo. And no I ma not wrong, my ideas are well tough, maybe you are unabler to grasp them, but I can understand taht since I am far superior intellectaually (although challanged gramatically due to my dislexia) ina level that is hard to be understood by most.


Again peopel have not pointed a SINGLE hole in my ideas, not a single one that was not easily rebuted. Yet the other ideas keep presentign siatuatiosn that CCP woudl never agree wtih , for example severing low sec pockets fromt he rest of low sec and 0.0.

So re read the posts, because you are either misxign who is posting what, or you are clearly havign issues understandign what a hole in an idea means.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#679 - 2014-07-10 22:46:02 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The goon tag under his name basically put a lot of salt on any opinion he states defendign the status quo.

Deconstructing a single idea due to its poor design is not the same thing as "defendign the status quo." I am not rejecting any changes to the status quo out of hand; merely attempting to cinch off an obviously faulty line of thinking before it gains traction and infects others.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Fraternity.
#680 - 2014-07-10 23:03:05 UTC
Querns wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The goon tag under his name basically put a lot of salt on any opinion he states defendign the status quo.

Deconstructing a single idea due to its poor design is not the same thing as "defendign the status quo." I am not rejecting any changes to the status quo out of hand; merely attempting to cinch off an obviously faulty line of thinking before it gains traction and infects others.


Goons are my Grrr space enemies but they are just people , good people playing a video game together as a community. As much as I would savor every delicious tear in there ruination I will stand with them or anyone like them against something like is being suggested. You cannot put artifical limits on social paradigms its not fair its not right.

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny