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[Ishtar] We Know It's Overpowered...Now What?
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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2014-07-09 10:49:08 UTC
Kaerakh wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
I log into the Ishtar Online public forums and I'm greeted by "ishtar isn't OP" good start to the day! Roll


Meanwhile, I log in and see an ishtar is OP thread that doesn't actually have any hard numbers or even anecdotal evidence in the original post that just expects me to believe the ishtar is OP without a single word of substantiated argument. Next the big kicker for me is that I check the corps of the people arguing the original post's point and they're all NPC alts(one even went so far as to try and hide itRoll) that I can't get even the slightest idea of their play experience relating to ishtars and whether or not they're just nullbears whining about the current FOTM ship.

*Kaerakh is not impressed.*



Want a simple evidence? Ishtar can do 50% more dps than a zealot.. at TWICE the range, aligns faster, almost everythign else on same league. 2 options, or the ishtar is OP or the zealot is crap (I think leans more towards the second)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2014-07-09 10:49:58 UTC
No, we need less cruisers with battleship DPS, not more.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2014-07-09 10:55:59 UTC
afkalt wrote:
No, we need less cruisers with battleship DPS, not more.



I would rather say we need more battleships with battleship dps.. and EHP ... that means a lot of battleships need a boost (tempest cough cough.... 2 damage bonuses and less dps than a hac.. )

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#44 - 2014-07-09 13:55:43 UTC
No need for long discussions in the "I got spanked by an ishtar" thread.
Alyssa Haginen
Doomheim
#45 - 2014-07-09 15:55:00 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
afkalt wrote:
No, we need less cruisers with battleship DPS, not more.



I would rather say we need more battleships with battleship dps.. and EHP ... that means a lot of battleships need a boost (tempest cough cough.... 2 damage bonuses and less dps than a hac.. )



One reason why a new set of PvP based tech 2 attack battleships could be introduced. Since most carries have the ability to push out 1500-1600+ DPS, a tech 2 battleship focused on damage rather then tank. They could deliver say 800 dps at 150km and up to 1600 at close range. Fix black ops too, it's not a stealth bomber, it's a battleship....give it t2 resists and help.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#46 - 2014-07-09 16:26:49 UTC
Not entirely sure if the OP realizes this detail:

*The AT is flown in an arena of barely over 100km radius*

So if you drop sentries once, opponents can't kite away from them. You can really throw bouncers out close to the center and project your damage inside the whole arena. While you can just move 200 off or warp up to your ceptor in normal play, forcing the Ishtars to boat back and scoop sentries again, the design of the AT arena just prevents that from happening.

Thus, Sentryboats are stronger in that tournament format then they actually are on TQ.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#47 - 2014-07-09 17:09:25 UTC
Seolfor wrote:
Disillusioned baddies abound, what to say, we're on the Eve-O forums. If you can't see why the Ishtar is op, from above posts, especially Xeq, then very little to add.

Not that CCP need to be told this, they recognize it and are rebalancing it (as officially confirmed by Rise that next in line is a HAC and BS re-balance).

From a non-null perspective, the Ishtar is out of control because it delivers an unmatched combination and flexibility that no other single ship bar T3s can even remotely match.

The omnipresent shield Ishtar across lowsec, in full PvP fit:

- One of the fastest cruisers, allowing it to kite anything slower than 2500 m/s especially with MG snakes and links, which most low sec pilots run with. Is it the fastest? No. Can other Cruisers catch it? Yes. Ishtar is balanced.

- with Sentries, it has a cap-free, damage selectable, by far the best tracking point range weapon system, immune to TDs (you can carry a set of 2 dmg type sentries along with a full flight of light AND a brawling-set of Gecko+Med+Small). Oh I forgot to mention, damage between 500-600 at 30km+ Is there any other HAC/cruiser, hell any subcap, that can deliver the same? Yes, ofcourse other Sentry users, and maybe some gank fit BS, but with supremely inferior tracking or major application/sig issues. Ishtar is balanced.

- With Full Ogres or an optimized 2Gecko-2Med-1small, you deliver near 800 dps. Again, cap free, by far the best tracking, TD immune (Ogres will track an ABing ScyFi even without web). Can other sub-caps deliver 800+ scram range dps? Yes, ofcourse, mostly drone + blaster boats. Ishtar is balanced.

- T2 resists and a near 50k EHP while sporting a point AND web (Fed navy will allow defensive webbing to 23ish km). We all know many other ships can have much more 50k ehp, even when kiting. Ishtar is balanced.

- Even after all the above AND adding a DLA II too the high, with so much fitting to spare you will have 2-3 MED Neuts which will annihilate the cap of anything that catches you or you choose to brawl. Surely a legion, Ashimmu, Curse can neut harder. Ishtar is balanced.

ALL THE ABOVE IN THE ONE SHIP - ONE PvP FIT. Which other ship can deliver this package?

No wonder with the one ship, you can run combat sites, PvP, gank, FW etc. Apart from a pimped Tengu, kindly present alternatives. I suspect the closest competitors will be other drone boats like Stratios, Gila, VNI. Even they won't deliver the above.

Ishtar is balanced?



This is 100 percent accurate. Utter and complete truth. Ive spent the majority of my Eve career in FW space. The ishtar is untouchable.

Frankly, if you disagree you are ignorant and naive. You probably, also, have not flown any other HAC. If you have, you are living in denial.
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#48 - 2014-07-09 17:26:28 UTC
Geddon fleets should be the answer but I don't know if anyone embraced a new drone boat doctrine for the lowly Geddon. Plus a Geddon counter fleet to Ishtar fleets is candy for a hot drop.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#49 - 2014-07-09 17:26:40 UTC
@ Kagura

i'd rather see one HAC toned down than increases across both HACs and battleships.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2014-07-09 18:45:48 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
@ Kagura

i'd rather see one HAC toned down than increases across both HACs and battleships.


I think HACs are in a good spot, mostly - minus the ishtar. Get that dialled back a bit and things like Eagles might see more use.

The cerb is just knackered until they sort out heavy missiles. Sacrelige is hard to make work too. Again, #missileuserproblems.
Lord Fudo
Doomheim
#51 - 2014-07-09 19:00:58 UTC
They could tweak the ability of being connected to sentries be a set distance of no more than 10km or you lose connection with your sentries.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#52 - 2014-07-09 19:52:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Phaade
afkalt wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
@ Kagura

i'd rather see one HAC toned down than increases across both HACs and battleships.


I think HACs are in a good spot, mostly - minus the ishtar. Get that dialled back a bit and things like Eagles might see more use.

The cerb is just knackered until they sort out heavy missiles. Sacrelige is hard to make work too. Again, #missileuserproblems.



Totally agreed. Eagles.countering ishtars is hilarious, 300 dps at 80km vs. Selectable 600 dps at 80km....

Hmmmm I wonder...
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#53 - 2014-07-10 01:41:54 UTC
As said many times, what makes the Ishtar OP is the range + dps, not either one taken individually. The Gila is basically the same ship, but it lacks the ability to use sentries effectively. It is well balanced with the other cruisers and HACs because of this. The reality of it is sentry drones really are a BS class weapon. Imagine the **** storm if the Zealot could effectively fit 8x t2 tachyons and have 75% of its grid/CPU left over afterwards. That's the situation the Ishtar is in.

The Geddon fleet mentioned earlier is not a solution to this. Geddons can't neut at 50km+ and they certainly aren't going to catch an Ishtar going 2-3km/s. I've seen someone try this, it was failtastic.

If you think the Isthar's current weapon setup is fine, then so be it. Knock it's MWD speed (shield fit, using nano's or overdrives) down to less than 800m/s and it would be relatively well balanced. I don't think anyone wants that. So the natural solution is to do something about the damage output or range. Attacking at 80km is no big deal, if it did a much more typical 250-300 dps at that range. 600 dps also isn't an issue, if it can only apply it at short range against well tackled targets (thinking medium drones, like the Gila).

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#54 - 2014-07-10 01:50:10 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
@ Kagura

i'd rather see one HAC toned down than increases across both HACs and battleships.


I think HACs are in a good spot, mostly - minus the ishtar. Get that dialled back a bit and things like Eagles might see more use.

The cerb is just knackered until they sort out heavy missiles. Sacrelige is hard to make work too. Again, #missileuserproblems.


The Cerberus was great, until CCP realized that it being good was making people use Caldari again. Then they "fixed" rapid light launchers, because Caldari being used is unacceptable.

The Sacrilege on the other hand is a pwnmobile. That thing can sustain a 800 dps active tank for like five minutes, while putting out 450 itself at close range, or 375 out to 40 km, while carrying a medium neut. There is not a damn thing wrong with that ship aside from it's hilariously high skill requirements.

Now granted it's pretty much the ONLY ship I can recommend HAMs for that isn't a T3 (which to me, means that the entire Medium class of missiles needs reworked. But then look what they did to capital missiles, ugh) but that's besides the point. The Sacrilege is a fine ship.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#55 - 2014-07-10 07:56:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Seolfor
King Rothgar wrote:
.. So the natural solution is to do something about the damage output or range. Attacking at 80km is no big deal, if it did a much more typical 250-300 dps at that range. 600 dps also isn't an issue, if it can only apply it at short range against well tackled targets (thinking medium drones, like the Gila).


Oh thats adorable. He thinks (or is pretending) that the Gila cant kite - snicker.

Either ways, let me elaborate it for you - No, the problem isnt just damage projection. Any Cruiser that can use Sentries can do that.

Problem with the Ishtar is everything else it can do, WHILE being the master of Sentry usage. See my post above.

Gila is frankly not balanced - as is evidenced from its near 3x price rise since the change and the fact its nearly 2x more expensive than the Ashimmu (and most other Pirate Cruisers). Market forces telling you what is obvious.

Without the Sentries however, Gila can no longer do Combat Sites, as Rats go psycho on med drones. Another 'win' for the Ishtar.

But make no mistake, Gila stronk. However thats another topic.

Imo, Ishtar needs balancing via removal of a high and nerf to PG and CPU so the ungodly mix of speed, gank in point range AND scram range, heavy neuting for a cruiser etc. cant all be achieved via a single fit.

Its either that or a Sentry rework.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2014-07-10 11:10:39 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
@ Kagura

i'd rather see one HAC toned down than increases across both HACs and battleships.


I think HACs are in a good spot, mostly - minus the ishtar. Get that dialled back a bit and things like Eagles might see more use.

The cerb is just knackered until they sort out heavy missiles. Sacrelige is hard to make work too. Again, #missileuserproblems.


The Cerberus was great, until CCP realized that it being good was making people use Caldari again. Then they "fixed" rapid light launchers, because Caldari being used is unacceptable.

The Sacrilege on the other hand is a pwnmobile. That thing can sustain a 800 dps active tank for like five minutes, while putting out 450 itself at close range, or 375 out to 40 km, while carrying a medium neut. There is not a damn thing wrong with that ship aside from it's hilariously high skill requirements.

Now granted it's pretty much the ONLY ship I can recommend HAMs for that isn't a T3 (which to me, means that the entire Medium class of missiles needs reworked. But then look what they did to capital missiles, ugh) but that's besides the point. The Sacrilege is a fine ship.



I must revisit the sac, the cerb seemed better for my needs at the time. food for though, thanks Smile

It may have been my own needs though, that limited it due to the type of engagement I was after.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2014-07-10 12:06:50 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
@ Kagura

i'd rather see one HAC toned down than increases across both HACs and battleships.


I think HACs are in a good spot, mostly - minus the ishtar. Get that dialled back a bit and things like Eagles might see more use.

The cerb is just knackered until they sort out heavy missiles. Sacrelige is hard to make work too. Again, #missileuserproblems.


The Cerberus was great, until CCP realized that it being good was making people use Caldari again. Then they "fixed" rapid light launchers, because Caldari being used is unacceptable.


The old RLM Cerb was almost as bad as the Ishtar, to be honest. Before the RLM fitting nerf you could run it with dual XLASBs, now that was broken.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2014-07-10 12:56:31 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
@ Kagura

i'd rather see one HAC toned down than increases across both HACs and battleships.


I think HACs are in a good spot, mostly - minus the ishtar. Get that dialled back a bit and things like Eagles might see more use.

The cerb is just knackered until they sort out heavy missiles. Sacrelige is hard to make work too. Again, #missileuserproblems.


The Cerberus was great, until CCP realized that it being good was making people use Caldari again. Then they "fixed" rapid light launchers, because Caldari being used is unacceptable.


The old RLM Cerb was almost as bad as the Ishtar, to be honest. Before the RLM fitting nerf you could run it with dual XLASBs, now that was broken.


Yeah but now it does THIS, which whilst cool to watch (much like the missile effects) is pretty inneffective at causing actual harm to much in a meaningful timeframe.

But like I say, missile hull problems sit in the system, not the hulls and it's a bit off topic - but I'd still trade the range and application of sentries to HML any day of the week.
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