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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Changes to SOV , Power Projection & Nullsec Stagnation

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Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#541 - 2014-07-09 15:53:45 UTC
Wentworth III wrote:
Wentworth III wrote:
Why not just limit the amount of times a capital can make cross-regional jumps to like 2 or 1 per every 2 days ? That way they can be used in combat still, but couldn't, say, move from delve to tribute in 15 minutes.


I think this probably got overlooked but I seriously can't see any downside to this.

It's yet another variation of "artificially limit jumps" that can be completely ignored by simply owning multiple hulls or pilots. Any and all ideas in this vein are terrible and should be discarded out of hand.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#542 - 2014-07-09 15:58:24 UTC
I don't mean to sound like a broken record here, but the "JUST MAKE IT SO THEY CAN'T JUMP AS MUCH" idea just keeps coming up. Frankly, I blame the rest of you for either failing to engage in critical thinking or for failing to read the thread.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#543 - 2014-07-09 16:13:14 UTC
If you are going to take away the jump drives (and cynos FFS), then you will have to let capitals into high sec.

I am fine with that, but let them go suspect immediately when gating to and through highsec. Chribba would be upset, but some eggs must be broken.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#544 - 2014-07-09 16:20:02 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Why are you worried about death cloning.
This is so simple to solve.

For all lowsec/nullsec systems:
You can only change your main cloning bay to the station you are actually docked, no remote changes.

For safe reasons , don't change this mechanic for higsec stations.

So there will be no issue about people death cloning for some timer , and then going instantly back.

This is a good idea.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#545 - 2014-07-09 16:24:15 UTC
Querns wrote:
Wentworth III wrote:
Wentworth III wrote:
Why not just limit the amount of times a capital can make cross-regional jumps to like 2 or 1 per every 2 days ? That way they can be used in combat still, but couldn't, say, move from delve to tribute in 15 minutes.


I think this probably got overlooked but I seriously can't see any downside to this.

It's yet another variation of "artificially limit jumps" that can be completely ignored by simply owning multiple hulls or pilots. Any and all ideas in this vein are terrible and should be discarded out of hand.

I'm pretty sure every line member can't afford a few hundred carriers and a few hundred dreads to accomplish what they can do today with just one of each.

Such a change Wentworth III suggest would have a real impact. So please, stop the fear mongering.
El Zylcho
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#546 - 2014-07-09 16:27:37 UTC
Just get rid of sov. Sov has become a form of welfare for the space rich. It discourages PVP and 0.0 warfare is tedious. Competitors actually agree not to compete now and access to 0.0 is basically controlled by an oligarchy.

Get rid of the "alliance" too. This would cure stagnation, promote warfare and increase the risk with exposing game assets. Let every corp hold as much 0.0 as it can without help from CCP.

This would do more to meet the spirit of hyper capitalism and conflict espoused by Eve than adding taxes and destabilizing high sec.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#547 - 2014-07-09 16:29:04 UTC
Querns wrote:
Wentworth III wrote:
Wentworth III wrote:
Why not just limit the amount of times a capital can make cross-regional jumps to like 2 or 1 per every 2 days ? That way they can be used in combat still, but couldn't, say, move from delve to tribute in 15 minutes.


I think this probably got overlooked but I seriously can't see any downside to this.

It's yet another variation of "artificially limit jumps" that can be completely ignored by simply owning multiple hulls or pilots. Any and all ideas in this vein are terrible and should be discarded out of hand.



The exact same can be used to circunvent ANYTHING you can think regarding power projection.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Andy Koraka
State War Academy
Caldari State
#548 - 2014-07-09 16:29:39 UTC
If this change goes live I propose we adopt Nidhoggurs as our predominant small-gang fleet concept (move aside Vultures).

http://i.imgur.com/KDXE4dD.png

Highlights:

  • With about 500m in implants our Nidhoggur warps 4.3 AU/sec with an align of 9.9 seconds (compare to the 14s align of the ever popular "foxcat" batleship)


  • Incredible rep potential, when refit full armor each Nidhoggur (2x reps) repairs the target for almost 6500 EHP/second, for our 15 Niddy gang that's 97,500 dps of rep power!


  • With 2 scripted Tracking Links and a Navigational computer, your Einherji will chew apart subcaps with a combined fleet DPS up to 25,000! If frigates get you down watch as your Warrior IIs rip those interceptors to shreds.


The ideal composition for this fleet in my estimation would be 10-15 Nidhoggurs with 3-5 heavy tackle (webbing lokis/tackle proteus), off grid Armor/Skirmish/info boosts and scout interceptors for a rough fleet size of 25.

And for the true Ballers out there, your Hel can come too!
http://i.imgur.com/XzkokUO.png


All joke-crafting aside, people would just put i-stabs/hyperspatial accelerators in their Carrier lowslots and convoy ships 1,000,000m3 at a time. In terms of fending off roaming gangs, no gatecamp ever is going to try and attack a 20 man carrier fleet, and with some basic scouting your convoy could dock long before a comparable hostile fleet can even get close. Personal logistics would take a hit, but for an alliance or even a large corp moving would be as safe as ever.

As far as how long it would actually take to travel in normal rigged caps: http://i.imgur.com/6XAloka.png
2.6 AU/s warp speed (with a 20m implant)
13.3s align, which if you can be assed to do the MWD trick really drops to 10s. That's faster than moving battleships gate to gate.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#549 - 2014-07-09 16:30:22 UTC
Querns wrote:
I don't mean to sound like a broken record here, but the "JUST MAKE IT SO THEY CAN'T JUMP AS MUCH" idea just keeps coming up. Frankly, I blame the rest of you for either failing to engage in critical thinking or for failing to read the thread.



And all the other alternatives simply break completely the game. I blame people sttuborn pushign the no jumps anymore in failing to engage critical analysis of the game outside your little bubble of reality.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#550 - 2014-07-09 16:31:55 UTC
Mixed idea.. Allow capitals to jump with a long reload time in low sec. And deny them the jumping in 0.0. That coudl also be added as lore reason why 0.0 was not colonized.. because that regions have some geographycal issues...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#551 - 2014-07-09 16:33:58 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Querns wrote:
Wentworth III wrote:
Wentworth III wrote:
Why not just limit the amount of times a capital can make cross-regional jumps to like 2 or 1 per every 2 days ? That way they can be used in combat still, but couldn't, say, move from delve to tribute in 15 minutes.


I think this probably got overlooked but I seriously can't see any downside to this.

It's yet another variation of "artificially limit jumps" that can be completely ignored by simply owning multiple hulls or pilots. Any and all ideas in this vein are terrible and should be discarded out of hand.

I'm pretty sure every line member can't afford a few hundred carriers and a few hundred dreads to accomplish what they can do today with just one of each.

Such a change Wentworth III suggest would have a real impact. So please, stop the fear mongering.

It would indeed have a real impact on the people who can't afford multiple hulls. "One hundred" is hyperbole; as little as 3-6 hulls would afford you a significant advantage. All these sorts of changes do is gate out the "little guy" even harder than the status quo.

Don't be mistaken; as a moderately rich player, and as part of the most successful coalition in the game, I am absolutely for such a change. Bring it on. It's clearly terrible for the health of the game as a whole, however.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#552 - 2014-07-09 16:36:38 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Querns wrote:
I don't mean to sound like a broken record here, but the "JUST MAKE IT SO THEY CAN'T JUMP AS MUCH" idea just keeps coming up. Frankly, I blame the rest of you for either failing to engage in critical thinking or for failing to read the thread.



And all the other alternatives simply break completely the game. I blame people sttuborn pushign the no jumps anymore in failing to engage critical analysis of the game outside your little bubble of reality.

What part of "owning multiple hulls and pilots allows you to ignore jump cooldown restrictions" is indicative of any sort of gossamer vignette? It's just facts. If, after jumping, my hull has a 15 minute cooldown before it can jump again, I just jump into another hull and continue. Carriers are inexpensive enough to make this feasible.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#553 - 2014-07-09 16:47:55 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:

I'm pretty sure every line member can't afford a few hundred carriers and a few hundred dreads to accomplish what they can do today with just one of each.

Such a change Wentworth III suggest would have a real impact. So please, stop the fear mongering.

Once again, you really just haven't thought this through. Pony-express style deployments require only additional isk, and any restriction that can be lifted with only isk is yet another barrier to entry to nullsec and should be trashed immediately.

You need to start thinking things through: your post starts off obviously factually wrong (pony-express setups don't require a few hundred per character), then on the basis of that obviously wrong comment you try to dismiss one of the people who has repeatedly contributed intelligent responses to this thread as "fear mongering" which is just a dumb insult.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#554 - 2014-07-09 16:48:40 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

The exact same can be used to circunvent ANYTHING you can think regarding power projection.

Nope.
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#555 - 2014-07-09 16:52:46 UTC
I'd like to see it take several minutes to 'spool' a jump drive up (and yes, you can pre-spool it before its needed provide you have the cap to do so).

Make the spooltime be impacted by any Tidi within maximum jump range (jcal5).
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#556 - 2014-07-09 17:11:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Querns wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Querns wrote:
I don't mean to sound like a broken record here, but the "JUST MAKE IT SO THEY CAN'T JUMP AS MUCH" idea just keeps coming up. Frankly, I blame the rest of you for either failing to engage in critical thinking or for failing to read the thread.



And all the other alternatives simply break completely the game. I blame people sttuborn pushign the no jumps anymore in failing to engage critical analysis of the game outside your little bubble of reality.

What part of "owning multiple hulls and pilots allows you to ignore jump cooldown restrictions" is indicative of any sort of gossamer vignette? It's just facts. If, after jumping, my hull has a 15 minute cooldown before it can jump again, I just jump into another hull and continue. Carriers are inexpensive enough to make this feasible.



I do not contest that. What I contest is the Illusion that you can achieve completely what you desire without completely breaking the game (for example isolating large zones of low sec from the rest of universe)

I want the same effect as you.. but I am more focused on the side effects taht woudl not be bearable. And if you try to push only somethign that has an inherent side effect taht CCP will never tolerate, then you are scrapign your own idea.


That is why I cannot see a "remove cyno jump" level of change beign ever implemented.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Cronus Maximus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#557 - 2014-07-09 17:20:10 UTC
Ejderdisi wrote:
0.0 Stagnation or : How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb

Industry : Factories may loose slots ever so slow due to overcrowding and empty factories may gain new slots. It will be nerf to some parts of highsec again. but also make it shift too. It will force industry to be liquid. Make ppl carry their BPOs around etc.



I agree overall that having push-pull to resources is a great way to avoid stagnation.

On the one highlighted point I would mention that slot based gating is soon to be a thing of the past, but this is a minor quibble really. There is always different implementations possible and I really like the core idea here.


On some of the other mechanics I think depleting to 0 yield might be too much, being FORCED to make war might be too strong of a motivator and would push some indy based people out. That said if you are down to 50% when your neighbors are at 100% because they are space lazy...that's a reason to invade, but not an imperative.

Again minor quibbles and overall I think this has potential.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#558 - 2014-07-09 17:22:31 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

I do not contest that. What I contest is the Illusion that you can achieve completely what you desire without completely breaking the game (for example isolating large zones of low sec from the rest of universe)

I want the same effect as you.. but I am more focused on the side effects taht woudl not be bearable. And if you try to push only somethign that has an inherent side effect taht CCP will never tolerate, then you are scrapign your own idea.


That is why I cannot see a "remove cyno jump" level of change beign ever implemented.

You're taking too many steps in a direction we're not going here. Truthfully, I don't have any good answers to the power projection or sov problems being discussed in this thread. (Incidentally, no one else here has painted a consistently good one either!) However, being the man that I am, I am exceedingly good at deconstructing terrible ideas, and I post as such. Post-jump timers are simply infeasible. There may yet be ways to curb power projection that aren't immediately exploitable, and I eagerly await their inclusion, so that I can take them apart.

I exist only to destroy. Somehow, I make this a positive thing.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#559 - 2014-07-09 17:29:11 UTC
Querns wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

I do not contest that. What I contest is the Illusion that you can achieve completely what you desire without completely breaking the game (for example isolating large zones of low sec from the rest of universe)

I want the same effect as you.. but I am more focused on the side effects taht woudl not be bearable. And if you try to push only somethign that has an inherent side effect taht CCP will never tolerate, then you are scrapign your own idea.


That is why I cannot see a "remove cyno jump" level of change beign ever implemented.

You're taking too many steps in a direction we're not going here. Truthfully, I don't have any good answers to the power projection or sov problems being discussed in this thread. (Incidentally, no one else here has painted a consistently good one either!) However, being the man that I am, I am exceedingly good at deconstructing terrible ideas, and I post as such. Post-jump timers are simply infeasible. There may yet be ways to curb power projection that aren't immediately exploitable, and I eagerly await their inclusion, so that I can take them apart.

I exist only to destroy. Somehow, I make this a positive thing.



And I am just trying to proposed a dampener on the power projection, not a wall. Because even a dampener is better than nothing as long as it cannot be easily circunvented by larger groups but not by smaller groups.

If we cannot remove jumps becuse of reasons I stated, we cannto delay jumps.. because of what you beleive. Then we are doomed. Maybe we should go opposite direction and any capital ship can jump to any system they want just clicking on the map..

But I still think major problem is the no drawback on having thousands of blues. If you cannto have thousands of blues then it does not matter how much projection you have.


"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#560 - 2014-07-09 17:34:59 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
But I still think major problem is the no drawback on having thousands of blues. If you cannto have thousands of blues then it does not matter how much projection you have.

The problem is that blues cannot be "restricted." Sure, you can put in game mechanics to limit the size of entities, or put in mechanics that restrict the in-game standings in some effective, non-specified way, but the fact of the matter is that blue relationships are increasingly forged out of game -- at barbecues, at Fanfest, in Vegas, in Jabber, on Mumble. Out of game software and organization can compensate for any attempted restriction of in-game blue lists.

Attempting to curtail organization and friendship is a non-starter. How do you propose to keep two disparate groups from working together?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.