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[Ishtar] We Know It's Overpowered...Now What?
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Sigras
Conglomo
#21 - 2014-07-08 22:32:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
Sure, the Ishtar is OP when your opponent is limited to <= 12 people and locked into a 250 km arena which they cannot leave with invulnerable micro jump beacons strategically placed around the arena...

Call me the next time that happens on TQ
MagicToes
Dr Pepper Sales Team
#22 - 2014-07-08 22:51:43 UTC
Xequecal wrote:

The Ishtar brawls better than any ship except T3s, snipes better than any ship, and kites better than almost everything as well.


No.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2014-07-09 00:35:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
MagicToes wrote:
Xequecal wrote:

The Ishtar brawls better than any ship except T3s, snipes better than any ship, and kites better than almost everything as well.


No.


When brawling, it does more raw DPS than a 3-MFS Deimos with neutrons and facftion antimatter, these drones have five times the tracking of the neutrons, and of course they're not limited to a 2km optimal range.

It does 600 DPS at 130km with Wardens, that's more DPS than any battleship (let alone any cruiser) at that range with ten times the tracking.

It has the unique ability to drop sentry drones and burn away from them, anyone chasing you will get massacred by them as soon as the range opens a little bit.

Oh, and it can do all three of these things on the same fitting.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#24 - 2014-07-09 00:50:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
Hmm, really weird, must have a bug cause one cruiser I have has the same and my BS even more. Except maybe the tracking, but at 130km range, tracking isn't really an issue. And don't forget the Eos which can use a MMJD to get into instant range ... yeah, Ishtar is the one and onlyRoll

But I give you some leeway with the Daimos, it could get some boost and I think I heard it will.
Goochan derp
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-07-09 01:04:52 UTC
just say no to power creep
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#26 - 2014-07-09 02:26:55 UTC
If you take away its ability to use sentries all you're left with is a watered down gila.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
MagicToes
Dr Pepper Sales Team
#27 - 2014-07-09 02:48:55 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
MagicToes wrote:
Xequecal wrote:

The Ishtar brawls better than any ship except T3s, snipes better than any ship, and kites better than almost everything as well.


No.


When brawling, it does more raw DPS than a 3-MFS Deimos with neutrons and facftion antimatter, these drones have five times the tracking of the neutrons, and of course they're not limited to a 2km optimal range.

It does 600 DPS at 130km with Wardens, that's more DPS than any battleship (let alone any cruiser) at that range with ten times the tracking.

It has the unique ability to drop sentry drones and burn away from them, anyone chasing you will get massacred by them as soon as the range opens a little bit.

Oh, and it can do all three of these things on the same fitting.


Lol, no.

I'm sorry but pure DPS numbers alone do not make a ship a 'better brawler' it's not even the best HAC at brawling let alone ANY ship. Sacrileges for example are more than capable of murdering Ishtars at close range. And in order to get those 3 damage mods on the Ishtar you have to fill all the tank in the mids, meaning little utility for ewar/counter ewar.

Neither is it true that no battleship cannot out DPS an Ishtar at 130km, straight off the bat I'll name cruise phoon's as an obvious candidate that can.

Ishtar's also can't shoot at targets 130km away either because assuming the standard shield fit you're referring to can't even lock that far. Max booster and max skills is only a 110km targeting range, even assuming max skills and being able to lock that far, the drone control range doesn't even go as far as 130km.

FWIW Even your statement about the 3 DDA Ishtar out DPS'ing a 3MFS Deimos with Neutrons and CN antimatter is wrong.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2014-07-09 02:49:50 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Hmm, really weird, must have a bug cause one cruiser I have has the same and my BS even more. Except maybe the tracking, but at 130km range, tracking isn't really an issue. And don't forget the Eos which can use a MMJD to get into instant range ... yeah, Ishtar is the one and onlyRoll

But I give you some leeway with the Daimos, it could get some boost and I think I heard it will.


Which other cruiser does 600 DPS at 130km? This doesn't exist.

Technically you can get 600 DPS from something like a Tachyon abaddon with 3 heat sinks, but that's not a real fit.
Kynric
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#29 - 2014-07-09 03:11:04 UTC
The hull seems mostly fine, although it is perhaps a tiny bit faster than ideal. I do think ishtar sentry drones are bit more effective at hitting small ships than I would like. Weakening the ship against frigates would bring it nicely into line imo.
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-07-09 05:40:12 UTC
Disillusioned baddies abound, what to say, we're on the Eve-O forums. If you can't see why the Ishtar is op, from above posts, especially Xeq, then very little to add.

Not that CCP need to be told this, they recognize it and are rebalancing it (as officially confirmed by Rise that next in line is a HAC and BS re-balance).

From a non-null perspective, the Ishtar is out of control because it delivers an unmatched combination and flexibility that no other single ship bar T3s can even remotely match.

The omnipresent shield Ishtar across lowsec, in full PvP fit:

- One of the fastest cruisers, allowing it to kite anything slower than 2500 m/s especially with MG snakes and links, which most low sec pilots run with. Is it the fastest? No. Can other Cruisers catch it? Yes. Ishtar is balanced.

- with Sentries, it has a cap-free, damage selectable, by far the best tracking point range weapon system, immune to TDs (you can carry a set of 2 dmg type sentries along with a full flight of light AND a brawling-set of Gecko+Med+Small). Oh I forgot to mention, damage between 500-600 at 30km+ Is there any other HAC/cruiser, hell any subcap, that can deliver the same? Yes, ofcourse other Sentry users, and maybe some gank fit BS, but with supremely inferior tracking or major application/sig issues. Ishtar is balanced.

- With Full Ogres or an optimized 2Gecko-2Med-1small, you deliver near 800 dps. Again, cap free, by far the best tracking, TD immune (Ogres will track an ABing ScyFi even without web). Can other sub-caps deliver 800+ scram range dps? Yes, ofcourse, mostly drone + blaster boats. Ishtar is balanced.

- T2 resists and a near 50k EHP while sporting a point AND web (Fed navy will allow defensive webbing to 23ish km). We all know many other ships can have much more 50k ehp, even when kiting. Ishtar is balanced.

- Even after all the above AND adding a DLA II too the high, with so much fitting to spare you will have 2-3 MED Neuts which will annihilate the cap of anything that catches you or you choose to brawl. Surely a legion, Ashimmu, Curse can neut harder. Ishtar is balanced.

ALL THE ABOVE IN THE ONE SHIP - ONE PvP FIT. Which other ship can deliver this package?

No wonder with the one ship, you can run combat sites, PvP, gank, FW etc. Apart from a pimped Tengu, kindly present alternatives. I suspect the closest competitors will be other drone boats like Stratios, Gila, VNI. Even they won't deliver the above.

Ishtar is balanced?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#31 - 2014-07-09 06:55:28 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Hmm, really weird, must have a bug cause one cruiser I have has the same and my BS even more. Except maybe the tracking, but at 130km range, tracking isn't really an issue. And don't forget the Eos which can use a MMJD to get into instant range ... yeah, Ishtar is the one and onlyRoll

But I give you some leeway with the Daimos, it could get some boost and I think I heard it will.


Which other cruiser does 600 DPS at 130km? This doesn't exist.

Technically you can get 600 DPS from something like a Tachyon abaddon with 3 heat sinks, but that's not a real fit.


The Ishtar does not have 600 DPS at 130 km. It's around 560. And the application is lackluster, because Warden cannot track. And if a target is 130 km away, you have combat probes to warp on top of the Ishtars and murder them.

You can also simply orbit the drone ball and not even the tracking of the Gardes means anything. With a couple of well placed bomb runs, you can also simply wipe off the Ishtar's main damage source. You only have so many sets of Sentries or mobile drones, which can all be shot and destroyed, while the Ishtar is kept in place with a scram and web. The Ishtar EHP with a pure DPS fit (3 DDA, Nano, DCU) is well below 40k, any other HAC reaches at least 60k, and armor Isthars don't even reach 600 DPS with Gardes. You can also simply burn out of the range of the Sentries; they are stationary whereas your turrets and launchers aren't. Isthars need to recollect their drones, which makes them susceptible to bomb runs as well as ships warping onto them and pinning them down. Ishtars cannot simply leave the field without recollecting their drones, otherwise they sacrifice DPS or replacement drones.

So, where again is the Ishtar OP?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2014-07-09 07:07:41 UTC
My Cerberus would KILL for 'only' 560@130 and as for your 'lacklustre' application.....well....no.

It would also like these 60k EHP whilst retaining the ability to get damage onto something other than stationary ships, or BC+ hulls.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2014-07-09 07:13:20 UTC
Quote:

The Ishtar does not have 600 DPS at 130 km. It's around 560. And the application is lackluster, because Warden cannot track. And if a target is 130 km away, you have combat probes to warp on top of the Ishtars and murder them.


You're going to want to make up your mind here. In the last post you say tracking at 130km doesn't matter. Now, apparently, it does matter.

Wardens on the Ishtar have 3x the tracking of medium railguns with Javelin. Gardes have the tracking of neutron blasters. They track just fine.

You need to be at least 150km away to warp, you can't do it from 130.

Quote:
You can also simply orbit the drone ball and not even the tracking of the Gardes means anything. With a couple of well placed bomb runs, you can also simply wipe off the Ishtar's main damage source. You only have so many sets of Sentries or mobile drones, which can all be shot and destroyed, while the Ishtar is kept in place with a scram and web. The Ishtar EHP with a pure DPS fit (3 DDA, Nano, DCU) is well below 40k, any other HAC reaches at least 60k, and armor Isthars don't even reach 600 DPS with Gardes. You can also simply burn out of the range of the Sentries; they are stationary whereas your turrets and launchers aren't. Isthars need to recollect their drones, which makes them susceptible to bomb runs as well as ships warping onto them and pinning them down. Ishtars cannot simply leave the field without recollecting their drones, otherwise they sacrifice DPS or replacement drones.

So, where again is the Ishtar OP?


1. Ishtars can insert more drones from cargo via mobile depot or carrier, they are not limited to 3 flights. Bomb runs are rather useless.

2. There is no way you can get under the tracking of Ogres in a cruiser. Even Gardes require you to be pretty damn close to them for that to work.

3. There's nothing stopping you from abandoning drones and launching more drones.
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#34 - 2014-07-09 07:16:26 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
I log into the Ishtar Online public forums and I'm greeted by "ishtar isn't OP" good start to the day! Roll


Meanwhile, I log in and see an ishtar is OP thread that doesn't actually have any hard numbers or even anecdotal evidence in the original post that just expects me to believe the ishtar is OP without a single word of substantiated argument. Next the big kicker for me is that I check the corps of the people arguing the original post's point and they're all NPC alts(one even went so far as to try and hide itRoll) that I can't get even the slightest idea of their play experience relating to ishtars and whether or not they're just nullbears whining about the current FOTM ship.

*Kaerakh is not impressed.*

Schrodinger's Hot Dropper

The Fate of Forum Alts

Guaranteed Success
Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#35 - 2014-07-09 07:27:16 UTC
Mobile depot and carrier fitting services not usable while on weapons timer. Solves part of that problem ^^
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#36 - 2014-07-09 07:36:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Xequecal wrote:

1. Ishtars can insert more drones from cargo via mobile depot or carrier, they are not limited to 3 flights. Bomb runs are rather useless.

2. There is no way you can get under the tracking of Ogres in a cruiser. Even Gardes require you to be pretty damn close to them for that to work.

3. There's nothing stopping you from abandoning drones and launching more drones.


Mobile Depots are shot into RF in an instant, if launched on grid. Or the Ishtar killed if it stops on the Depot to restock.

You simply web and kill Ogres. You can orbit Garde spheres with ABs and thus severely hurt their tracking.

You can only abandon so many drone sets and you cannot determine which drones you reconnect to. Abandoning and relaunching also removes the Damage from the field for a bit.

Xequecal wrote:
Quote:

The Ishtar does not have 600 DPS at 130 km. It's around 560. And the application is lackluster, because Warden cannot track. And if a target is 130 km away, you have combat probes to warp on top of the Ishtars and murder them.


You're going to want to make up your mind here. In the last post you say tracking at 130km doesn't matter. Now, apparently, it does matter.

Wardens on the Ishtar have 3x the tracking of medium railguns with Javelin. Gardes have the tracking of neutron blasters. They track just fine.

You need to be at least 150km away to warp, you can't do it from 130.


Which last post do you refer to?

They can have all the tracking they want: at the end of the day they are not capable of tracking a fast ship or an AB'ing ship.

You can warp to the prober behind/further away from the Ishtar ball.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2014-07-09 09:32:28 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Xequecal wrote:

1. Ishtars can insert more drones from cargo via mobile depot or carrier, they are not limited to 3 flights. Bomb runs are rather useless.

2. There is no way you can get under the tracking of Ogres in a cruiser. Even Gardes require you to be pretty damn close to them for that to work.

3. There's nothing stopping you from abandoning drones and launching more drones.


Mobile Depots are shot into RF in an instant, if launched on grid. Or the Ishtar killed if it stops on the Depot to restock.

You simply web and kill Ogres. You can orbit Garde spheres with ABs and thus severely hurt their tracking.

You can only abandon so many drone sets and you cannot determine which drones you reconnect to. Abandoning and relaunching also removes the Damage from the field for a bit.

Xequecal wrote:
Quote:

The Ishtar does not have 600 DPS at 130 km. It's around 560. And the application is lackluster, because Warden cannot track. And if a target is 130 km away, you have combat probes to warp on top of the Ishtars and murder them.


You're going to want to make up your mind here. In the last post you say tracking at 130km doesn't matter. Now, apparently, it does matter.

Wardens on the Ishtar have 3x the tracking of medium railguns with Javelin. Gardes have the tracking of neutron blasters. They track just fine.

You need to be at least 150km away to warp, you can't do it from 130.


Which last post do you refer to?

They can have all the tracking they want: at the end of the day they are not capable of tracking a fast ship or an AB'ing ship.

You can warp to the prober behind/further away from the Ishtar ball.


I'm referring to the one you made before the quoted one.

By your logic, no one can snipe in Eve, because apparently the targets can't be tracked and its trivial to just warp right to them. I guess we should just fit blasters to everything, because railguns/beam lasers/artillery are all useless. Sentry drones out track other medium weapons substantially, if they can't track then nothing can.

Also, heavy drones are apparently useless as well, because you can just "web and kill them."
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2014-07-09 10:11:12 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Is there another cruiser sized hull out there that can pull just shy of 800 DPS up close, 700 out to 47ish and 600 out to 80+. Caveat: Must be the same fit. Oh and have 3 neuts.

?

Seriously? Because I'd love to fly it.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#39 - 2014-07-09 10:22:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Xequecal wrote:

I'm referring to the one you made before the quoted one.

By your logic, no one can snipe in Eve, because apparently the targets can't be tracked and its trivial to just warp right to them. I guess we should just fit blasters to everything, because railguns/beam lasers/artillery are all useless. Sentry drones out track other medium weapons substantially, if they can't track then nothing can.

Also, heavy drones are apparently useless as well, because you can just "web and kill them."


You must be confusing me with someone else. Ugh My post before your quoted one was:

Rivr Luzade (#17) wrote:
The Ishtar is not OP.

And get your dirty hands off of the Tracking Bonus on the Zealot!


Your oversimplification isn't really helpful either. Sniping is easily possible with the right setup and right targets. How that matters for a fleet fight with Wardens, where the targets fly at high angular velocity to the drones, is a mystery to me. The same goes for the probing part: I cannot see where I implied it is a trivial task. But apparently skills (not the ingame SP skills) are not even factored in into fleet fights anymore. Ugh

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2014-07-09 10:46:36 UTC
Alyssa Haginen wrote:
It's obvious the Ishtar is far stronger then it's other racial equals. CCP has confirmed this just by adjusting it's point value for the upcoming alliance tournament. What makes it overpowered is it's ability to project 600dps over 70km. Instead of nerfing the Ishtar or sentry drones, why not boost the other three ships in a way that won't make them overpowered at close range.


My idea including an ammo change for one ship:

Zealot:

Role Bonus:
50% Optimal range bonus to Medium Beam Lasers, 10% Damage Bonus to Medium Beam Lasers


Eagle:

Role Bonus:
30% Damage bonus to Medium Railguns

Munnin:

Role Bonus:
50% Optimal range bonus to Medium Artillery, 30% Damage bonus to Medium Artillery

Ammo Change:
(Sabot, Uranium: 15% more damage, 15% Optimal Range reduction)
(Proton, Nuclear, Carbonized Lead: 35% more damage, 30% Optimal Range reduction)


Two things this creates the need for would be, the need for a Strategic Cruiser re-balance, and a possible T2 Combat Battleship that is based around long range damage.



Completely agree that boosting these 3 is the way (dont agree on the way you suggested altough) . The other 3 are pathetic. The munin is good at station campign and that is all. The zealot is slower, has less DPS, harder to fit, larger signature than the navy omen (That btw for some strange reason is faster than even a vagabond).

Zealot needs to be 15% faster and 10% more dps. It cannot do at 30 km the dps an ishtar can do at 70km.

The munin needs to have a more focused minmatar blood, reduce its signature a bit, increase its scan res a bit so it has the higher resolution of any CRUISER sized hull.


As a rule of thumb on tiercide the ships that ccp decided were OK and werer to be the base to what the others are being changed to match.. are the ones that became useless. Example?

Zealot... from best hac to worst hac.
Rifter from best frigate.. to never seen anymore
Rupture from best cruiser to useless (sicne thorax have more ehp, aligns faster, same speed, more dps...)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
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