These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Rorqual - I missed the fanfest stream.

First post First post
Author
Lilith Shea
Multiplex Gaming
The Bastion
#101 - 2014-07-08 14:35:45 UTC
Just throwing it out there, we actually have a thread going with some good ideas in the Features and Ideas section

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=356048&find=unread

Just a few things we were talking about to make you want to bring a rorq out in the field, the ability to mine, industrial only jumps for black ops mining, mining drone bonuses, specialized mining drones... like a carrier's fighters. Maybe these threads can feed off of each other and we can all come out on top as this thread seems more combat based and mine is more indy based.
Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
#102 - 2014-07-08 18:01:09 UTC
I tried to post here, but the post was too long. I therefore published it to the web.

The Only Thing That Will Work
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#103 - 2014-07-08 19:02:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Victoria Sin wrote:

Listen, any/all ideas that involve making the Rorqual a "viable PvP ship" still fail due to something called escalation. Blops, wrecking ball, 10 supers, 50 Titans, you have absolutely no idea what's going to come through that cyno. Well OK you do if you have a spy in his coms.

So no. Absolutely no combat or shield related addition to the Rorqual would make me want to keep it around in a belt. Here's what would:

(1) Much faster align and warp time
(2) Bigger bonus for its gang links when on grid
(3) No requirement to siege it to get (2)

Basically all of those 3 things together would make putting one on field worthwhile. The way the miner works is he mines and watches/listens closely to intel. If there's a red 3, 2 or 1 jump away he'll GTFO. If he's in something that can't GTFO, it's probably going to die, so he'll only ever have put one into a field once before in his Eve career and it's probably on his KB.

But here's the question:

Why can I put a Damnation next to a POS shield and get full bonuses from its hull, whereas in order to get a full bonus for mining I have to fly this massive fat 2.5b capital? It makes absolutely no sense.

Actually, one is more likely to put an Orca in a belt, and accept any losses.

Go back to my post #13:

CCP Fozzie wrote:
So the goal here will be to make a ship that is the kind of thing you want to put into a belt, with extremely strong defensive bonuses, and the ability to not only protect itself but its friends, and the ability to provide also a strong benefit to your mining fleet. Get these things out where they're in a bit of some danger, but also where that danger is manageable, where it is actually sane to put them into that danger.

The last sentence is key.

My proposals (in several threads) have been for improvements that reduce risk, but don't eliminate it.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4598337#post4598337
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#104 - 2014-07-08 22:09:35 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:

My proposals (in several threads) have been for improvements that reduce risk, but don't eliminate it.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4598337#post4598337


Is it going to have fitted a system wide cyno/covert-cyno jammer? If not, it's BS.
Lugues Slive
Diamond Light Industries
#105 - 2014-07-09 01:57:56 UTC
Looking at on grid use only, the Rorqual's current Risk vs. Reward is a 2.5B isk ship that is stuck in on spot for 5 minutes that is a massive hauler.

If CCP decreases the risk, the best option is to disconnect the boosting bonus from the Industrial Core. This only gets rid of the 5 minutes stuck in one spot, leaving you with a 2.5B isk hauler with 350k m3 of hold. Any increase in defense, whether it is a reinforced mode or POS bubble, it will just force escalation and extend the inevitable.

If CCP increases the reward, there are a couple of options. The first being the addition of mining capability. The restriction here is that they cannot give it a yield that exceeds that of a boosted Hulk or else everyone will stop using exhumers and switch to Rorquals. If Rorqual pilots will not risk their ships for a fleet of exhumers, why would they risk it for one mores yield?

The second option is to add a targettable Remote Mining Booster. These modules would target other ships to increase their yield. They would act similar to the carrier's RR modules, receiving a bonus while the Rorqual is deployed. They would have limited strength due to the number that could be fit to a ship. They would also make it so a Rorqual itself cannot out mine any ship, but by having it on grid you can make significant isk.

Hypothetical numbers (actual numbers would need to be balance for decent Risk vs Reward): Doubles targets yield, 3 modules fit per ship without ganking its current fit too heavily.

1 Skiff mines about 164k m3/hr * 3 Skiffs * 100% increase = 493k m3/hr
1 Hulk mines about 216k m3/hr * 3 Hulks * 100% increase = 647k m3/hr

Using a rough estimate of 255 isk/m3 for ore mined, that is 120m/hr using Skiffs and 165m/hr using Hulks.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#106 - 2014-07-09 02:11:16 UTC
Let it use more drones at once.
Increase bandwidth and drone bay.

Give it a bubble so it can lock down targets.

Make it force cap ships to commit to the fight or atleast a serious BS fleet.

Risk needs to go both ways.

Let it give the good buffs without the core on.

End off grid boosting or atleast put a hard cap on it at 150k

Rorquals would start showing up in every deep null area.

Problem solved.
Lugues Slive
Diamond Light Industries
#107 - 2014-07-09 03:18:40 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
...

End off grid boosting or atleast put a hard cap on it at 150k

...


The problem with removing OGB is that it would require your entire mining fleet to be in the same belt or have a booster at each belt. The concept is fine for combat since each boosting ship still has the capability to provide competative DPS, but with mining none of the boosting ships provide much yield.

If CCP added barge/exhumer level yield to boosting ships then I would totally buy into the removal of OGB.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#108 - 2014-07-09 06:00:59 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Let it use more drones at once.
Increase bandwidth and drone bay.

Give it a bubble so it can lock down targets.

Make it force cap ships to commit to the fight or atleast a serious BS fleet.

Risk needs to go both ways.

Let it give the good buffs without the core on.

End off grid boosting or atleast put a hard cap on it at 150k

Rorquals would start showing up in every deep null area.

Problem solved.


It's a capital industrial, not a capital interdictor. If CCP want such a thing they should release a capital interdictor.
I see no problem with the enemy's blob committing to a fight. In fact they'll be all over it and it'll be dead in 3 minutes.
Off grid boosting is needed because mining fleets split over belts.

It's a ship without a role and especially so when Crius-a-river gets released. I'm thinking it should be removed from the game and replaced with an off-grid boosting, smaller variant that doesn't have all of the industrial crap with it, which clearly isn't needed any more.
Marox Calendale
Voices of War - Research and Production
Evictus.
#109 - 2014-07-09 10:25:05 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
I tried to post here, but the post was too long. I therefore published it to the web.

The Only Thing That Will Work

Bsically good Idea, but I wouldn´t like having a rorq in a belt without an active mining role. Also the point that the only way to get out of PvP will be by jumping out is a great mess, as Jumpdrives do not work in Wormholes.

This Thread is maybe the best one to merge all rorq change ideas, as CCP is already watching it. So please apologize the double posting here also.


That is what I would prefer to be changed at the roqual:

Capital Industrial Ship Skill Bonuses:
- 5% Reduction in Fuel Consumption for industrial cores per level
10% bonus to effectivness of mining foreman warfare links per level when in deployed mode
20% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints per level
10% bonus to capital shield booster amount and capacitor need reduction per level
Can deploy 1 additional Capital Mining Drone per level


Role bonuses:
900% bonus to the range of Survey Scanners
200% bonus to Drone Control Range
100% Bonus to Mining Drone Yield and Capital Mining Drone Yield

Can carry Capital Mining Drones

Can use 3 Warfare Link modules simultaneously


3000 m³ dronebay, 250MBit Dronebandwith
3.000.000 m³ Ship Maintenance Bay (for about 15 Hulks or defense ships, so not industrials only)

Capital Mining Drone: 250m³ Volume, 25Mbit Bandwith, 10 of them will mine as much as 1 hulk does (incl. the Bonus to their yield the roq would have), 2750m³ Ore Bay so they only have to come back when 1 Jetcan (27500m³) is full.

Industrial Core: Duration 60, Consumption 100, increases all resistances by 30% like a bastion module does. Ore compression is still possible.

Instead of having Clone Vat Bays for ships I would add Clone Vat Arrays for posses. But I am not sure how important they are for titans or any other ship which can fit them.


The idea is, that the roqual will be able to switch their drones when its getting attacked while it would have a very strong tank. The miners have to get back to switch to their combat ships and defend it until its Cap is empty or no attackers are left.
Dronebay would be big enough to carry 10 Capital Mining Drones and 10 Geckos or other Combat Drones, but too small for any fighter, while the Capital Mining Drones would be too big for any other Mining Ship. Bandwith would be enough for 10 Capital Mining Drones or 5 Geckos or other Combat Drones.
Survey Scanner, Capital Tractor Beam and Drones would have a range near to 200km. So while mining the ship could stay outside the belt, pull the cans and compress the ore. If anyone is attacking it, it will have a tank like Marauders have in Bastion Mode.

This all is written from my point of view as a wormhole miner. I know there are different circumstances in low or Nullsec. This suggestion could be even too hard for wornhole and maybe too weak for K-Space. But I am not a developer and it is in CCP´s responsibility to have a good balance between all kind of spaces. So the main thing I want to tell is how my vision of the role of a rebuilded roqual is.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#110 - 2014-07-09 10:45:59 UTC
Marox Calendale wrote:

This all is written from my point of view as a wormhole miner.


Indeed as you've pointed out it just won't work in null. You're unlikely to get dropped by a Nyx or twenty in a WH. This is why I think anything other than a very fast GTFO time makes it impractical for use in a belt. This implies the industrial core doesn't "siege" and that it's align and warp times are comparable to that of a Hulk or Mackinaw. Fine if that requires creative module and rig fitting skills but anything other than "warp to safe pos" is just a 2.5b kill mail.
Seldjan
Cryptologix Inc.
#111 - 2014-07-09 13:42:16 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Mordred Banks wrote:
Idea:
Rorqual with Reinforced mode. When it gets to 30% shield-> goes into reinforced for half an hour.

That would prevent Titan insta-blaps and would force Gangs to either stick around or to come back later. It also gives time for the Rorq pilot to batphone for help.


Cool. That means only people who're able to bat-phone for help will be able to make use of one. Are there many indy toons or renters with a bat phone?


Actually many more than you think. Your argument is like saying: I can't build my capitals in Delve to supply the local market because people will shoot my tower and i don't have batphones!

If you have the ISK to be risking a rorqual in space, you have the potential to cut deals and make arrangements that benefit both parties
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
#112 - 2014-07-09 13:59:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyktor Abyss
I quite like the grid-wide (cov)cyno jammer when the industrial core is active.

Reduce the time on the Industrial core "siege mode" , add the ability to store lots more new mining frigates and better boosts for its correct use.

Though the more sandbox uses of a grid cyno jammer would be more interesting IMHO - standard issue for bling bling lowsec fleets hehe.
Durbon Groth
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2014-07-09 14:03:00 UTC
Wasn't there some suggestion that the rorq would at some point be used for building new stargates? Perhaps I'm just rememberinng that wrong.
Anyways I agree with the poster above that offensive bonuses should be kept well away from this ship, it's just not what it was intended for. Defensively, could keep in theme with smaller ore ships, have a built in warp core stab. Meaning if pointed by an interceptor or 2 it could still cyno back to safety. Alternatively I reckon it would be fun if whilst deployed in industrial mode it would have a short reinforce mode, maybe half an hour or less which gives it survivability based on the response of the pilot's corp or alliance. If they can't respond to save the rorq in time, well sucks for them. But it would help protect this expensive defenseless ship from marauding gangs of interceptors and hotdrops.
Industry wise, I'd love to see a rorq with a capital mining laser but I can imagine a year down the line where every nullsec home system is filled with afk mining rorqs...
And that would not be good imo.

P.s yellow bee-striped rorqs ftw
TheSampler
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2014-07-09 15:22:54 UTC
CCP, please turn off the requirement for Heavy Water for the Rorqual for the 22nd release. As compression is being basically null-n-void from the rorqual - you're giving it to a POS with no additional fuel costs to the POS. Do you not think, rorqual pilots need at least one benefit in flying their ore hauler? Thanks.

TheSampler
Marox Calendale
Voices of War - Research and Production
Evictus.
#115 - 2014-07-09 15:34:45 UTC
Just another Idea:

Why don´t think about the Mining Role itself? Not only for the Roqual, but for all Mining ships. Why do we always have to be the harmless sheep's running away, if anybody with an evil face is just looking at us? Why can´t we be the (weaker) wolf in sheep´s clothing?

What I mean is, much miners are getting attacked or ganked every day without having a chance to strike back. So here is my idea: add 2 or 3 launcher slots ( as mining laser and strippers do need turret slots) to every mining ship in New Eden. Add a little bit more to CPU and PG so that all can be fitted and then let miners strike back!

2 Miners could be able to fight against 1 ganker (T1 Ship) and may be win. I would think about having nearly same dps like follows:

2 Venture = 1 T1 Frigate
2 Prospect = 1 Destroyer
2 Barges = 1 T1 Cruiser
2 Exhumer = 1 T1 (Battlecruiser(Combat))
2 Orca = 1 T1 Battleship
2 Roqual = 1 Carrier or so

OK you wouldn´t probably never see 2 Roquals in 1 Belt, but that´s not the thing. Thing is, it wouldn´t probably change much to low or large scale PvP Fleets (except some interesting new trap strategies), but single Ganker may have problems to fight against Hole Mining Fleets.
This could solve the afk cloaky problem in K-Space as it could also force Miners all over New Eden to work together (So more sheeps on the field to kill).
If you want to force miners to pvp, then give them teeth.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#116 - 2014-07-09 16:37:56 UTC
Seldjan wrote:

Your argument is like saying: I can't build my capitals in Delve to supply the local market because people will shoot my tower and i don't have batphones!


No. I don't think a Rorqual is very much like a POS at all actually.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#117 - 2014-07-09 17:17:33 UTC
Marox Calendale wrote:
Just another Idea:

Why don´t think about the Mining Role itself? Not only for the Roqual, but for all Mining ships. Why do we always have to be the harmless sheep's running away, if anybody with an evil face is just looking at us? Why can´t we be the (weaker) wolf in sheep´s clothing?

What I mean is, much miners are getting attacked or ganked every day without having a chance to strike back.

I take it you haven't heard of a battle-Skiff.
Arronicus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#118 - 2014-07-09 20:08:34 UTC
1) Allow the industrial siege cycle to be broken at any time
That alone, would be enough for some of us to use it in the belt
2) Force all npcs to target the rorqual while it is in industrial siege
3) Allow the rorqual to loot any containers within 150km or even 50km while in siege.

Top three that would, in my opinion, make the rorqual very much worth sitting in the belt. Or even reduce the indy core cycle time to 30 seconds.
Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
#119 - 2014-07-09 22:55:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Paynus Maiassus
TheSampler wrote:
CCP, please turn off the requirement for Heavy Water for the Rorqual for the 22nd release. As compression is being basically null-n-void from the rorqual - you're giving it to a POS with no additional fuel costs to the POS. Do you not think, rorqual pilots need at least one benefit in flying their ore hauler? Thanks.

TheSampler


Compression is not null and void for the Rorqual. The heavy water requirement for compression is fairly insignificant, and not having to maintain a separate POS for compression and not having to buy a compression array which will take up PG/CPU in my POS or force me to play an annoying online/offline module game when using my POS is actually valuable. I plan on using my Rorqual for compression where it is convenient to do so.

The compression array is mostly for high seccers with no Rorqual access.

If you're really an industrialist who has a Rorqual and operates in null or low, there is no reason for you not to have realized this fact. Trust me, you'll still be using your Rorqual for compression. Especially during mining ops in systems where you don't have a POS with a compression array set up. If they don't jack up this Rorqual rebalance, groups may just be able to have mining ops and use the Rorq where you don't have a POS at all.
Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
#120 - 2014-07-09 22:59:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Paynus Maiassus
Marox Calendale wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
I tried to post here, but the post was too long. I therefore published it to the web.

The Only Thing That Will Work

Bsically good Idea, but I wouldn´t like having a rorq in a belt without an active mining role. Also the point that the only way to get out of PvP will be by jumping out is a great mess, as Jumpdrives do not work in Wormholes.


I changed the document to reflect giving the Rorq the option to warp out for the benefit of the wormhole dwellers. Not sure how long it takes Google Docs to update the published version.

I'm glad you took the time to read the document. I fear many will be dissuaded by the wall of text. I'm passionate about the idea or at least an idea that provides the Rorq with an equivalent god mode.

Unfortunately, I don't share your view that the Rorqual should be a miner as well as a mining foreman vessel. But thanks for reading my idea and giving a thumbs up.