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[Proposal] Leadership Skills Revamped for Newer Players
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Kcolorr
Eighty Joule Brewery
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2014-07-08 18:33:49 UTC
The goal of this change is to allow people access to warfare links and the mindlinks at a lower skill point cap while keeping a maxed out leadership character the same. This allows newer groups or persons to provide bonuses to their fleet, albeit lesser ones. While each skill increases the effectiveness of the links, the level V requirement to use most of the items is a large hindrance on players that are somewhat newer to the game, yet have the ability to lead and command fleets.

Current skill requirements:

Armored Warfare link I - Armored Warfare V, Armored Warfare Specialist I.
Armored Warfare link II - Armored Warfare V, Armored Warfare Specialist V.
Siege Warfare link I - Siege Warfare V, Siege Warfare Specialist I.
Siege Warfare link II - Siege Warfare V, Siege Warfare Specialist V.
Information Warfare link I - Information Warfare V, Information Warfare Specialist I.
Information Warfare link II - Information Warfare V, Information Warfare Specialist V.
Skirmish Warfare link I - Skirmish Warfare V, Skirmish Warfare Specialist I.
Skirmish Warfare link II - Skirmish Warfare V, Skirmish Warfare Specialist V.
Command processor - Warfare Link Specialist V.
Mindlink (standard) - Cyber V, Warfare Specialist V.
Mindlink (faction) - Cyber V, Warfare Specialist V x2.

Currently it takes 253 days to use t2 links, a mindlink, and 2 command processors with Fleet Command V
Or 165 days with Wing Command IV

Proposed Changes
Rename “Siege” to “Shield”

Armored Warfare Link I - Armored Warfare I.
Armored Warfare Link II - Armored Warfare Specialist I, Warfare Link Specialist I.
Shield Warfare Link I - Shield Warfare I.
Shield Warfare Link II - Shield Warfare Specialist I, Warfare Link Specialist I.
Information Warfare Link I - Information Warfare I.
Information Warfare Link II - Information Warfare Specialist I, Warfare Link Specialist I.
Skirmish Warfare Link I - Skirmish Warfare I.
Skirmish Warfare Link II - Skirmish Warfare Specialist I, Warfare Link Specialist I.
Command processor - Warfare Link Specialist IV.
Mindlink (Tech 2) - Cyber IV, Warfare Specialist IV - 25% bonus, 15% fixed
Mindlink (faction) - Cyber IV, Warfare Specialist IV x2.

With the changes it would take 141 days to use t2 links, a mindlink, and 2 command processors with Fleet Command V, the boosts would not be maxed.
Or 52 days with Wing Command IV. Once again, not maxed, but allows players the ability to boost their fleets.
The only "loss" of skillpoints in this scenario is the train of Cybernetics V.

Fleet Command skill to require Wing Command III. While the progression from squad to wing to fleet commander may seem correct, in reality the FC will want to be in the FC slot for 1) boosts to the wing which have a wing booster, 2) if the fleet is larger than one wing. The Wing Command skill does nothing if you have Fleet Command, you can lose all your skillpoints in Wing Command and still Fleet boost properly as is.

I am very open to feedback on this. To me, leadership and fleet commanding skills are one of the most unforgiving for new players who wish to lead fleets. As a person who has done the full leadership train on 3 different characters, I am someone who is heavily invested in making sure the changes do not ruin that.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2 - 2014-07-08 18:37:43 UTC
Not as long as links are off grid.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#3 - 2014-07-08 18:54:08 UTC
+1 to renaming siege to shield.
Drove me up a wall trying to learn that stuff as a newbie.

Also information warfare changed to electronics warfare (cause you know... they give jams and other ewars bonuses and all.)

As to shortening the trainings...
Well i wont get into that because i havent trained them
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#4 - 2014-07-08 19:14:36 UTC
As a newbie you can lead a fleet with WC II or III, you don't need that many squads in your fleet. And you can use T1 links, because you are newbie.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Ephenos
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#5 - 2014-07-08 22:14:27 UTC
I know this might be crazy sounding, but you can use t1 instead of t2.

There seems to be some sort of subtle massive elitism in the use of links, like you can't use links unless it's on a maxed t2 links on a t3 or command ship.

Even t1 links with no mindlink, strapped on a normal BC are very helpful, doesn't need to be perfect.
Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#6 - 2014-07-08 22:31:32 UTC
Know what would be a great change. Letting dessys (or a t2 one) load a boost so a fairly new crew could roam with a small gang and have their boosts keep up. Call them aegis destroyers (heh arent they command destroyers irl neways??)
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#7 - 2014-07-08 22:33:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
The whole argument is at fault. leading and commanding a fleet has nothing to do with boosting the fleet, those are two different issues. First can be done by a 10 min char. boosting is down to people who specialize in it, yes I said it, cause it usually requires a remap and a player committing to that task.

If you talk about boosting alts, then it is not an issue at all, since you are not talking about new players anymore and just having some fleet bonus.

Skills are fine as they are and the whole on grid off grid thing is another discussion.

Fleet command / boost skills are not for new players, period. But that does not mean, that they can't command a fleet or that the fleet has to be unboosted. That is achievable through active play.

So No, thank you.

Ephenos wrote:
I know this might be crazy sounding, but you can use t1 instead of t2.

There seems to be some sort of subtle massive elitism in the use of links, like you can't use links unless it's on a maxed t2 links on a t3 or command ship.

Even t1 links with no mindlink, strapped on a normal BC are very helpful, doesn't need to be perfect.

I have been doing this with success for a while, just one week into a specialized category is not much investment. And now after 11 months of remapped +5 implant training I can almost fly my max command ship. The first steps are easy enough and further commitment is rewarded, perfect.

Linkxsc162534 wrote:
Know what would be a great change. Letting dessys (or a t2 one) load a boost so a fairly new crew could roam with a small gang and have their boosts keep up. Call them aegis destroyers (heh arent they command destroyers irl neways??)

The whole command destroyer is another thing, 2 recent threads can testify to that, check the SF if you want to have a go.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#8 - 2014-07-09 00:07:09 UTC
U think its unforgiving because u think fleets cant be boosted without links. But in about ten minutes u can have both leadership trained and one or more of the warfares trained and boost ur fleet.

Its actually really quick and easy to get into.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-07-09 00:25:49 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
U think its unforgiving because u think fleets cant be boosted without links. But in about ten minutes u can have both leadership trained and one or more of the warfares trained and boost ur fleet.

Its actually really quick and easy to get into.


Less than a day to get them all to level II so 10% bonus on each area...probably 2 days maybe less to get them all to level III

As you say it's pretty quick and easy to gain useful boosting skills...
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#10 - 2014-07-09 01:01:09 UTC
Linkxsc162534 wrote:
Know what would be a great change. Letting dessys (or a t2 one) load a boost so a fairly new crew could roam with a small gang and have their boosts keep up. Call them aegis destroyers (heh arent they command destroyers irl neways??)

Warp & Agility fit a BC. It will still have better tank than a Destroyer and aprox the same agility & warp speeds.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#11 - 2014-07-09 01:54:05 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

Less than a day to get them all to level II so 10% bonus on each area.


I believe u mean 4%

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Kcolorr
Eighty Joule Brewery
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2014-07-09 16:54:38 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
U think its unforgiving because u think fleets cant be boosted without links. But in about ten minutes u can have both leadership trained and one or more of the warfares trained and boost ur fleet.

Its actually really quick and easy to get into.


Except you're not boosting your fleet unless you have the appropriate level of Wing Command or Fleet Command trained. Leadership V is a 4 day train, one of the Warfare V skills is a 7d train.

While 4 days of training may be "10 minutes" in Eve related training, the scenario you're discussing allows a person to boost half a squad with 2% armor.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#13 - 2014-07-09 17:00:28 UTC
yes u are. u boost ur fleet with leadership level 1 trained. its just not a very big fleet.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#14 - 2014-07-09 17:06:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
Kcolorr wrote:

While 4 days of training may be "10 minutes" in Eve related training, the scenario you're discussing allows a person to boost half a squad with 2% armor.

You are just haggeling now - dismissing 2%, yet your suggestion leaves 2% boost out in the end to get the mods earlier, so what's it gonna be - double standard ?

And you are also dismissing my whole post and ignore the fact, that all you said is unrelated; just overlook what disproves you, thats the way to go.

Again, leading a fleet, commanding a fleet and boosting a fleet are different things. I know not a single person that does all 3 (in a Combat fleet). Most professional FCs don't even do the first 2, yet you want everything and easier for beginenrs to be able to do, which veterans not only refuse to do, but with good reason. And you want to change the whole system to submit to that delusional wish. -Yeah, way to go Roll

I thought this was done Straight
Kcolorr
Eighty Joule Brewery
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2014-07-09 17:15:07 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Kcolorr wrote:

While 4 days of training may be "10 minutes" in Eve related training, the scenario you're discussing allows a person to boost half a squad with 2% armor.

You are just haggeling now - dismissing 2%, yet your suggestion leaves 2% boost out in the end to get the mods earlier, so what's it gonna be - double standard ?

And you are also dismissing my whole post and ignore the fact, that all you said is unrelated; just overlook what disproves you, thats the way to go.

Again, leading a fleet, commanding a fleet and boosting a fleet are different things. I know not a single person that does all 3 (in a Combat fleet). Most professional FCs don't even do the first 2, yet you want everything and easier for beginenrs to be able to do, which veterans not only refuse to do, but with good reason. And you want to change the whole system to submit to that delusional wish. -Yeah, way to go Roll

I thought this was done Straight


I was dismissing the argument that training leadership I and warfare I was useful at all. It allows you to boost a squad of 2 people with 2% armor or whatever.

Most of the FCs I know do all 3. Even if you want to FC the fleet while having someone else as the fleet booster, you're still required to have the appropriate FC level for them to provide boosts, which is what the second suggestion covers with reducing the Wing Command requirement for the person to train the FC skill sooner.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#16 - 2014-07-09 17:35:50 UTC
Kcolorr wrote:


I was dismissing the argument that training leadership I and warfare I was useful at all. It allows you to boost a squad of 2 people with 2% armor or whatever.


Its typical progression. u start small with little power but increase in size and power with more training. it takes mere minutes to get leadership and a warfare skill to level one, and therefore mere minutes to start having an effect. But if u want more power u can spend more time training.

its the same for weapons
its the same for ships
its the same for e-war
its the same for mining
its the same for industry

To say training leadership and a warfare to level 1 isnt useful is like saying training launcher operation and rockets to level 1 isnt useful and we should reduce the training time of getting to T2 rocket launchers.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Kcolorr
Eighty Joule Brewery
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2014-07-09 17:43:12 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Kcolorr wrote:


I was dismissing the argument that training leadership I and warfare I was useful at all. It allows you to boost a squad of 2 people with 2% armor or whatever.


Its typical progression. u start small with little power but increase in size and power with more training. it takes mere minutes to get leadership and a warfare skill to level one, and therefore mere minutes to start having an effect. But if u want more power u can spend more time training.

its the same for weapons
its the same for ships
its the same for e-war
its the same for mining
its the same for industry

To say training leadership and a warfare to level 1 isnt useful is like saying training launcher operation and rockets to level 1 isnt useful and we should reduce the training time of getting to T2 rocket launchers.


They did! http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/license-to-kill-certificate-overhaul/ with gunnery tiericide.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#18 - 2014-07-09 17:52:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
Kcolorr wrote:
I was dismissing the argument that training leadership I and warfare I was useful at all. It allows you to boost a
squad of 2 people with 2% armor or whatever..

And you should not, every bit helps, I survived some ganks for example only due to being in fleet and having thosse 2 or 4% more armor and shields and an increased shield also increases passive regen. And in the case of a Noctis... rightly fit, this can increase way over hundred. But that is beside the point, it was more meant to show some of the miner flaws of your information evaluation.

Quote:

Most of the FCs I know do all 3. Even if you want to FC the fleet while having someone else as the fleet booster, you're still required to have the appropriate FC level for them to provide boosts, which is what the second suggestion covers with reducing the Wing Command requirement for the person to train the FC skill sooner.

It might be, I have no way of refuting this, nor do I have to. You can't get from 'is' to 'ought', which to be fair you could accuse me in this case also, since I refered to professional FCs.
Just because some do it , that doesn't mean, that's how it should be.

The discussion should than be in regards to which is more effective and that lies with role division, which can be easily observed.
FCs usually hand down fleet commands (active execution) to their wing and squad commanders and seldom handle everything uniform unless you have maybe a 256 dominix blob or something. And said that, the actual FC does not have to be and is not in the Fleet Commander position in the fleet overview. This is one of you main faulty assumptions.

If you want to know how fleets are handled, there are some guids out there, eveuni will help. And being in professional fleets helps, as well as watching some recorded fights where the actual FC is recording and flying multiple accounts (multiple windows). The you will see how important division is.

Quote:

They did! http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/license-to-kill-certificate-overhaul/ with gunnery tiericide.

Yes they did, but not in the way you assume; or missuse it as an argument that it is not related to.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#19 - 2014-07-09 17:54:53 UTC
how does removing the necessity to train T2 small guns before training T2 large guns apply to our case of leadership?

U still train T1 rockets before u train T2 rockets. Having rockets level 1 is still as useful as having leadership level 1. So why should we make the training of T2 rockets quicker?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daoden
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2014-07-09 17:56:13 UTC
The bonus of the "long" train is that it empowers your FLEET. Not just you. You have any idea how long it took me to get all skills to V, including command ship on my main guy. It was a CHOICE for me to take the time to train those skills which allows a lot of other people to NOT have to train those skills. Boost skills are a VERY specialized branch to go down and because of that it is not required for everyone in game to train them. Leadership 5 for a majority of ppl is high enough. 5 Wing command V players per fleet and 1 Fleet command V per fleet.
Fleet boosting and warfare in general is not about 1 individual. If you choose to be a booster its YOUR choice and believe me your fleet mates will love you all the more for it even if you have to sacrifice training something else.
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