Player Features and Ideas Discussion

your right it prolly would help the node still i feel sitting there at a loading screen for x mins is not the way forward make it some kinda mini game to keep the jump aligned you fail the mini game you drop out of your jump in a random system on the route lol

ccp seam to like mini games at the moment this idea will prolly be taken seriously and added

Especially when you link their speed to current mass, or type.

Mass is better, but it will put more pressure to servers, but on the other hand, making once per 20 minutes calculation for capitals is not something you can stress up eve servers.

Lets assume that Jump Time is based on mass, the calculation for this is very simple :

LY*Mass / 1000000000

Based on this capital pilots that will travel 7 LY will see warp tunnel for :
Type Mass Outcome
Avatar 2,278,125,000 15.946875 = 16 minutes
aeon 1,546,875,000 10.828125 = 11 minutes
archon 1,113,750,000 7.79625 = 8 minutes


Lets apply similar logic to the titan bridging , the same calculation.
Type Mass outcome
abaddon 103,200,000 0.7224 = 43 seconds
eagle 11,720,000 0.08204 = 5 seconds


This will put interesting pressure on capital movements.
For example:
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Aeon,554/37S-KO:A1RR-M
So we are talking about 85.6 LY that give us 132 minutes just in warp tunel.

Still i think Mass for super capitals should be increased.

Something went wrong CCP.
Very wrong.

Edit :
I think that this dev blog have bad name :
How we will not make nullsec working.

As most of statements there are in opposite to the things CCP created in eve.

Ok this is actually quite a good thread to read on :)

From what I have gathered and in addition from what I want to propose:

Force Projection:

JUMP DRIVES

Manny's 1 system jump drive ideas will create burden as it will change(enhance/deteriorate?) the game play. Forexample I also remember a time when I wanted to buy something from empire I should manually warp around 20 jumps by stargates and I was quite happy when I saw the first jump bridge ... ( Yes they are exploited I'll add my thoughts later.)

Carrier dread titan super carrier force projection ? It is a big no-no..

With very easy solution. Regardless of cap, make them stranded for 15mins after a cyno jump, you may even add a - can not cloak due to rewinding of jump drives massage and let cyno and bridge to give aggresion.

For small guy small capital guy : He can still jump around his carrier to a safe or NPC station. Dock up and wait. If he is the kind moving for that escalation or officer he is in risk now.. 15 minutes no clock and active beacon is a `content creator`. If he wants to do 2 jumps he is truly vulnerable outside of his comfort zone of 12 light years. As he has to be docked or in space not cloaked for same duration.

For small guy big capital (AKA supers) guy : You can still make the jump but you can't dock up and now u can not even cloak.. This is grim for that solo super guy with gazillion alts who randomly moves around systems. 2 jumps is very very risky without deep safes or POS network to shield the super.

For small alliance normal capitals : They can still move around their force.. It will take just longer. 12 light year is easy as cake but even a 1 mid situation will make them lose 15minutes while they are charging up. They can strategically relocate to systems (and this means logistics and planning) but they can not head rush to that nyx tackled in deep ratting empire in 7 minutes. Also even 1 mid means fleet should have some proper defenses in case there is no station or Pos to hide in mids.

Small alliance super capitals: 12 light year np but outside that they will need to shield or defend their supers. Or they can easily be prey while going hunting by some other alliance who has some capitals 12 light year to any of their mids. As above they can catch the BIG WARS as they will take hours and hours but they have to think about randomly drop on a single ratting carrier. Because if that ratting carrier can some how call his big brothers, supers will be extremely vulnerable with their warp drives still charging and without cloak ability.

Big alliance normal capitals : This is easy .. They will make backup dread and carrier fleets docked in central NPC stations in various parts of EvE. They will clone jump and commit to fight and that part of the EvE for at least for 24 hours. They may even pod jump around various parts of EvE with a negligible cost and exploit 24 hour timer. Still it is not really efficient to drop a carrier in the other part of the universe just for killmail. But if more than 1 small entity starts wars on big alliances, jumping around and fighting between different fronts will probably quickly deplete the resolve of the giants.

Big alliance super capitals : This is kinda hard. Probably manny can comment on this much better than me. But I guess big alliance should take a decision now. Should they keep all their supers in same area and limit their projection to smaller threats or spread them around and let them hit the enemy when you know that other big boys supers are at least 2 mids 30mins away?

As long as BR incident happens it will still allow every party to join the fight with tidi.

TITAN BRIDGES :

Make titan bridges stay open for 15 min and with max cap of 50 ships

Small alliance titan bridge : You can still hot drop the **** out of the stupid gate camp as long as your fleet number is below 50. You can still fish in low sec for pirates and dump carriers. As long as you are not trying to go out to other side of map with a scout titan you should be fine. In that case first mid you will arrive instantly. Titan arrives 15 mins later. You jump at 15th minute to second mid. Titan arrives there 15 mins later(remember the above proposed idea). Btw Titan will be hugely exposed if you are using neutral systems for travel.

Big alliance titan bridge : As long as there is nothing important and your fleet is lower than 50 ships, above conditions apply.

If fleet is capped at 250 then you will need 5 titans for the last jump or else your fleet will be killed going in 50 by 50. Force projection is not hindered at first glance but if you have 5 titans logged in each mid to your destination that is kinda a lot of titans. EvE is roughly 8 jumps from 1 side to side means 40 titans are needed seeded in systems. Ofcourse normally you would like to stay 1 mid away from the hell so it means you need only 10 titans to fleet your 250 men gang. Ah to bring in 1000 you have to use gates or 40 titans yours choice. It is manageable as long as stakes are high enough.. But you will not catapult or can not catapult 250 men gang to other side of the universe for Friday roam.

The issue is also in the instant capital jumps.
Currently you are just flooding grid just after lighting the cyno.

Lets just assume we going to add FLY TO cyno option.

IF this will be at delay that will be closely connected to range you have to travel , then jumping directly from staging points is not so viable any more , and you have to :
1. include sub capitals that will tackle , and hold every thing before carriers arrive
- titan bridge is closer than carrier jump range, so you will have to keep supers in different places
2. if you loose cyno ship, then arriving capitals will be spread out around the system , easy to tackle and kill before fleet reassembles

And the reason you remain a part of this despised majority is - what?
Why dont you quit PL, create your own alliance, call it Against ALL... ehm... Carebears, and wreck the havoc?

That's because it involves efforts and risks, and you're either too lazy or too scared (or both). Instead, you go for ranting on forums, starting a topic #723467529346 about "how to fix sov". The sov is fine.

Sov is fine, yes.

Sov mechanics is broken, indeed - but the sovereignity map itself represents the state of mind of nullsec population and is therefore fine. Most people are risk-averse, deal with it. Those who chose to fight - they have all kinds of tools for that. They have NPC nullsec to live in, they have blackops to hunt the renters and siphons to drain the moons (since recently). Those tools may be sub-optimal and require some balancing/revamping, but they are there.

You may say - oh no, it's not for me, it's just pathetic guerilla warfare, and I want all out, I want to welp yet another 59 titans. Well, those titans, I remember them... and what triggered that fight. It was a Halloween War, which started... let me remember... after Solar Fleet and Darkness of Despair formed a coalition. And who are those DD dudes? I guess those were some try-hards from Stain, who (in the beginning) were not even able to take a single R64 moon. That's how you create content, Manny.

And also obligatory - your tears are delicious.

Interesting thread so far but it seems a lot of people are prepared to throw the baby out with the bathwater pretty quick. For all the people crying for the days of old, I think it's important to remember that there was a reason things were changed and features were added in the first place. Was I personally around for all of them? Nope. But a lot of things don't sound all that fun to go back to to be honest. Of course there's a lot of problems with the current system but everything developed to this point for a reason.

The idea of "regional gates" that capitals have to go through to get from one region to another is interesting. But the fact is a similar mechanic essential already exists. Distance

Problem is too many of the regions in null are too close together. More of a problem in the east then the west.

Look at the Fountain War. For a good portion of that conflict there was constant fighting on the B-D/J5A gate. The CFC held both sides of the gate, but we had no station in J5A (despite local philanthropists best efforts) so we had to go through that gate to titan bridge anywhere in Fountain. Carriers could make the regional jump but dreads couldn't. It was a natural geographic chokepoint that generated content.

The only thing that changed that was 4-EP reaching sov level three so that we could put up a jammer allowing us to stage from there. How did the system get to sov level three? Waited an arbitrary number of days. An influence based system would of made that interesting…

So now what if every null region was separated by enough distance that capitals had to mid through low or npc null. It's not huge but it would make things more difficult. To go great distances. There are already a lot of natural chokepoints that jump bridges can't cross, but people don't bother to camp them.

Of course as it is now Cap fleets just use station cynos in NPC null and aside from having the cyno popped and needing to light another one, they are completely safe. So make it impossible to light a cyno within docking range of a station. Yes supers essentially have this restriction now, so this only deals with caps, but think about the impact of having to midpoint through a limited number of systems in low or null and having to jump to a pos. You either go the the edge or go 200km's off, you could get ambushed, you could get ****-caged, you could have idiots who don't know how to enter pos passwords.

Then create an extra module called a logistics or freight cyno that only JF's can jump to. Sorry null logistics does not need to get harder….

The most boring and the worst missions I ever played in single player games were the ones where you have to guard or escort some slow defenceless NPC who inevitably spends most of their time running into walls. Hopefully human platers wouldn't run into walls. As the defender they are boring. In order for the system to function and null sec to thrive MOST of the time the object being escorted would have to make it through otherwise the system is broken. So what you would end up with, is the defenders having 9/10 or 8/10 escort ops being boring as ****. For the nomadic pirate types, once they have intel, they pretty much get to choose when they want to strike or if they just want to go after them next time.

The other question is, what is in those freighters and who is it of value to? It's nice to think that JF's that are going back and forth are carrying "super important materials of war" all the time, but most of the time they are not. There's a lot of "personal" moon goo, reaction outputs, ratting ships etc, going back forth. So think about how exciting "hey guys we have to do a freighter escort because Theta lost a bunch of ishtars" sounds.

There are already things that need escorts and need freighters to move. They are alliance or strategic assets that are too big. If freighter escorts online, really is a desirable form of gameplay, than perhaps there needs to be more "things" that are of value to an entity to a whole, that need to be bigger. While dominion sov is awful, what if we suddenly had two forms of SBU's, one with low hit points that could fit in a blockade runner, then another one with more hit points that needed a JF, a rorq or maybe even as small as a carrier fleet hangar to deploy. What if there were more objects that could only fit in a freighter. Things that take a whole entity to defend, should be of value to the whole entity.

The one other thing that I think contributed to coalitions that I think people forget, is how many things that it takes to run an alliance or a coalition, that are almost completely outside of CCP's control and are created and utilized by the player base. CCP still has some control because of the API, but the IT infrastructure and all of the third party apps and web tools are the things that make coalitions possible. And a lot of them are created because managing an alliance with the tools in game sucks.

Besides all of the previous mentioned reasons that cost is a horrible limiting factor, the other one is that it's really hard to know from an alliance stand point, where all the isk is going. Third party accounting and auditing tools should not be something the player base has to create and that's just one example.

The fact is if you want to get into null now as a new alliance or entity, there is a ton of outside IT things, that without, the whole experience will make you want to kill yourself. One of the biggest strengths of the established coalitions, is this infrastructure. Outright removing things from the API or just saying everything should be dark and scary is not a solution. As boring as it sounds CCP needs to look at management tools and perhaps this could even be tied to a mechanic where you get better management tools for "x effort".

Kid, Manny's proposing changes that would effectively dismantle Pandemic Legion as it exists today. Sure, they'd continue to exist, but not really anything like they do now. And this is purportedly for the good of the game. Is it really so hard to imagine a goon might be interested in the health of the game as well? If you came out of the myopic shell that "grr-goons" weaves around its adherents and thought about it for a few minutes, maybe it wouldn't be.

Or if that's just too much to wrap your mind around and you want to go on insisting we're out to make things the best they can be for ourselves, chew on this - all the things people talk about being really great in this thread - using your space mattering, local industry & production, etc - Goonswarm already does or is in a position to do. Emphasizing sub-capital power and minimizing capital superiority? We've been on the back foot compared to our foes in capital and supercapital terms for most of our existence. By the standards of what this thread says about how things should work and how great they'd be for the game, we're already playing it "right" and most of what's here would just make it righter still. What I take issue with are some specifics of implementation (I think his jump drive nerf is a bit over the top and even he acknowledged that the inherent timezone vulnerability his hacking suggestion would create is a bit daft, for example) but no, by and large, a lot of these concepts are great. And it's not like I haven't been talking about topicslike this for a long time or anything (hmm those ideas are really old and kinda shaky, I ought to revisit them...)


vvvv More myopia sufferers

Why not just limit the amount of times a capital can make cross-regional jumps to like 2 or 1 per every 2 days ? That way they can be used in combat still, but couldn't, say, move from delve to tribute in 15 minutes.

A very good post and I have to wonder about the law of unintended consequences. Given the Dominion sov system attacking even far flung regions of a coalitions space will that both the attacker and the defender will have to move men and material into position. If anything logistics will become even more important, not less. Further, given the deep pockets of existing coalitions could the suggested changes ossify the current null state situation, at least for a significant timer period?

I'm wondering if a big and rich coalition could not build up weapons/ship cache's at strategic spots around their various holdings and along with jump clones, death cloning, and so forth forces could not still deploy somewhat quickly for defense where as attackers, especially new ones, might have the problem of the force build up would basically signal to the defender where the attack is going to come from.

Add on the Dominion Sov structure which gives time to the defenders it could make breaking into null sec harder at least initially.

Mainly I'm thinking of the CFC which has lots of pilots and are much more spread out vs. their rivals PL/N3 which rely on a smaller number of pilots, but with greater mobility and good super capital numbers. After all, N3 and PL through their rental empire control quite a few systems, but how many PvP pilots are in close proximity to those systems? Not many. And PL/N3 rely on dropping capitals and super capitals into fights quite a bit.

Now the CFC on the other hand is much more widely dispersed. You'll have alliances residing in a region or part of a region to provide an initial level of resistance and intelligence. If a group decides to go after say, Pure Blind, well there are people who live there day-in and day-out. They'll likely see the build of hostile forces and will be right there with their own supply of ships to provide an initial defensive response until the rest of the CFC can send in additional support.

My point being, could the CFC "model" end up being the end result with a null sec map still looking like it does now? With big sprawling coalitions? Granted there might be more use of systems and more targets for roaming and small scale warfare and guerrilla actions, but is the goal to radically change the null sec map and create more opportunities for smaller scale fights? If so, then just nerfing power projection alone might lead to perverse results.