Player Features and Ideas Discussion

i always was a big fan for removing every way to move more then one system at once.

sending freighter, jumpfreighter, capitals and supercapitals through gates would probably the best thing ever and would solve almost every problem in eve.


but ccp will never do something like that because there would be epic threadnoughts against this.

I think supers and capitals are cool and exciting. They make cool headlines and we need them for the hitpoints of structures. The problem has always has been power projection. Hell we have so many of the things because its easy as hell for 1 guy to move the minerals to build one to nullsec in a single day.

Infinite man power and infinite resources? I don't think we have that, even in Eve.

A better way to make the above comment is that cost is not a GOOD limiting factor because so many players, corps, and alliances have now acquired rather deep pockets. Thus, any changes that are supposed to benefit small groups and new players that are based on cost will inevitably end up helping to further cement the already established players/corps/alliances/coaltions.

Basically, it is a corollary to Malcanis' law.

Edited for clarity and typos....

You saying im Fat bro ? Thats it Fite me now!

You gotta look at it from an outside opinion Manfred. It is very uncouth for someone to just give it all up for the sake of the good of everyone else. And maybe that's exactly what Eve needs.

We've been shouted at from mountains by CCP and others "Greed Is Good!" But in the process the very heart and soul of this little universe we call New Eden has suffered altogether at the sake of isk and risk aversion.

To be honest I wish your ideas would be instantaneous. Regional conflicts, Pirate raids on shipping convoys, gate camps locking down pipes, local wars making Sov more of a small gang and intimate experience.

I mean Eve is and always should be about the experience. The fight. There's nothing quite like skilled pvp going toe to toe out scrapping and fighting tooth and nail. It's almost like people have forgotten these fights exist.

Let's do it. Let's make Eve content and pvp something worthy again. Difficult, skill based. Not on the number of Supers you can drop, or how many lemmings can cram into a system.

And for all of you blathering about logistics being hard go talk to some of the grey beards who did it back in the day. Hell Industry would have a valued place again in Eve too.

These changes are needed desperately. If not more pilots will become bored, more will unsub, more will not even look back and then all that isk will be utterly worthless and the only people who will play are the vets desperate for the old days and renters who know nothing else.

Let's make Eve great again guys.

They're exciting 1% of the time. You know yourself owning a super that to have one you basically have to pay sub for an alt you might use for something important once a month.

Yeah, the idea of supers is incredibly cool and I would like nothing more than to see them work. Maybe your ideas would work, I don't know, but personally, I would rather see no supers in game than have them be what they are today.

If you can think of a way to make them work, I'm completely on board. Right now though, I would rather not have them in the game altogether, dreads and carriers fighting it out is pretty cool too. What's more fights where thousands of dreads are lost are a great possibility right now, because it is far easier to reship into one than it is a super.

I love the idea of supers, but the implementation of them right now is awful. I mean for god's sake seleene invented it.

I'm also worried they might be a bit too much to introduce in one update. Do you have any kind of phased in plan?

An idea in response to the cost of sov. I liked the useage idea but why not have something like growing costs. Have an Alliance set up a home system, have the cost of sov increase for every jump away from the system. Have a smaller cost if the alliance holds connecting sov and have a much higher cost for every jump away without connecting sov.

This will cause an exponential cost increase for sov holding to put a soft cap on you will on the size of an alliances holdings. Additionally they'll want to consolidate their sov to reduce cost instead of just holding sections of valuables moons which can be held via jump bridges.

Basically the idea that you can just nerf specific things and solve power projection is a fantasy. It's garbage and while you can slap on individual bandaids to prolong the time people will suffer through the current model the best you can do is manage the symptoms.

The complaints about power projection really add up to complaints about one thing and its side effects: bipolar eve. Bipolar eve is the creation of tons of factors that make it so that the only viable way to survive is to be able to count on about half the universe being blue to you if things really go down. That is the child of tons of factors, most poorly understood by the Marlonas of the world. Manny - though I disagree with him a lot on the changes you need to make - gets that you need really fundamental changes that rework core aspects of the game.

The main driving forces behind bipolar eve are:

1) Survival. It is possible for any war to become a galactic war. Just being bigger than your neighbor doesn't mean you can beat them, because your neighbor can beg admission to a coalition and suddenly call in a lot more support. This support can come from anywhere. Many people focus too much on rapid movement - that PL can be anywhere on the map in 10 minutes. That's a thing, yes, but not a big one. If PL takes two days to deploy, they still can deploy and suddenly shift the tide. As a result, even if you have resisted joining a coalition, any war you get into can rapidly escalate to one with a coalition on the other side and you simply must be friendly with their enemy to survive. Most stupid responses to bipolar eve just tell people to have less blues. Idiots who follow this advice end up like TEST. You may not like coalitions, but you'll learn to live with them or you'll learn to live in highsec in the current system. There are countless things that feed into this. That you can cyno capitals from one end of the map to another, and fight on two fronts at once. That modern doctrines use small ships (HACs, T3s, etc) that can often be imported much more easily than battleship fleets. That alliances are rich enough to stock markets themselves and not rely on motivating their members to do it. That alliances can import battleships en masse anyway when they're not using small ships. Jump clones. Podding. Dominion sov. All of these feed into it and you can't just hit one and expect the problem to go away.

2) Lack of serious inhibitions in controlling space. It is trivial to have bills automatically paid and maintain sov over an entire region without any serious effort. As a result there's nothing that really disincentivizes sprawling as far as you can. Keeping sov only requires effort when you face an attack. With pos warfare, you'd have to fuel a tower in each system you wanted to keep - but having only a single tower meant it was easy for a surprise attack to overwhelm you as your attacker got up more POS by surprise because you were lazy about the region. Now, any attacker hitting some renter system that no goon has been to in a year faces nearly the same obstacles as if they choose to invade Deklein itself. Sprawl does not strain an organization. Many people try to say that cost should go up exponentially. That's just not workable: cost does not balance things well in EVE, especially in 0.0 where the old guard will always be richer than the upstarts. Plus, you just evade the exponential costs through one of many obvious and unpatchable ways around it. Maintaining an empire needs to cost effort. We can always find more isk. We can't always find more people to run towers, in space we don't live in.

3) Dominion Sov: Nobody likes this. The fundamental problems with it however are generally not comprehensively understood: people see individual things wrong with it but rarely assemble them into a coherent whole because Dominion Sov is bad both for the attacker AND the defender, something people often miss.

Why dominion sov is bad for the attacker is generally understood: that all your progress resets entirely if you lose a single fight, fights are based on gigantic bricks of EHP, and that when facing an enemy who has given up you still have to grind every bit of that EHP anyway.

What's less often focused on is how bad it is for the defender. If you can't win a fight there's nothing you can do to fight a guerilla war, to strain your attacker and force him to decide its not worth the effort. A gaggle of supercaps that you can't scratch smashes your ihub and station into paste and then moves on. As a result once you're done, you're done: you've got no hope so just make sure you're not the last one holding the bag. You can't try to spam towers, you can't try to retake systems through relentlessly trying to get up towers of your own, and you can't convince your people that if you retreat and hold in a different system anything will change. The ground you fight on in every system is exactly the same. There's no fortress systems where you can tower every moon. There's no systems with so many moons that it's a matter of will and money more than actual fights. Everything is the same so once you've lost, you've got no hope.

Dominion sov, by reducing everything to timer fights over EHP, screws everyone.

4) Supercaps. Death to supercaps. It is one of the great things about B-R that now that there is rough supercap parity, everyone can finally agree on death to supercaps in theory without it being nearly as political. Supercaps make it essentially impossible for anyone to field any supercaps or capitals without being able to batphone 51% of the galaxy's supercaps. Their speed and their invulnerability to anything but more supercaps make them utter death to new alliances in EVE. Nobody can build a capital fleet or a supercap fleet without being on good terms with their local supercap lords - and with Dominion sov, you need those.

We shouldn't, though. Grinding EHP sucks. Grinding EHP is also the only way to take sov right now. Those can't go together when the only thing that lets you grind EHP without suicide involves 300b+ in supercaps and a batphone to your friendly neighborhood CFC/PL/N3 supercap FC who will show up to save your bacon if your unfriendly neighborhood PL/N3/CFC supercap FC shows up to blow you up for giggles.

They are cool and exciting because they're the only thing left where losses are significant - back in the day wiping a dread fleet was a horrific disaster, while today we could have the HED turkey shoot and have the CFC show up next week with a brand new dreadfleet. But you risk mudflation by just saying well now supercaps must be a thing because we must have a more expensive thing.

And we have so many of the things because for years you needed supercaps to be anyone. Moving minerals to 0.0 might be an easy day's work, but getting them compressed, and getting them uncompressed and into the tower...not so much (you're looking at 50 round trip freighter runs on the 0.0 side - you can outsource the highsec ones if you can afford to risk your build station being overloaded when they arrive). People would have built nearly as many if they were five times as hard to build because you simply had to have them to be anyone in the AOE/Tracking titan era. Now, less so, but you're building as fast as you can con people into flying them and so are we because we can'r risk the other side getting a definitive supercap edge.