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Changes to SOV , Power Projection & Nullsec Stagnation

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Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#141 - 2014-07-07 12:09:53 UTC
Well, if we wanna go the route of limiting power projection, how about starting with something smaller and more incremental? How about we just remove Titan bridging? I mean it wouldn't solve the whole problem but it would be a start.

I've always felt uneasy about the idea that 99% of Titans' role in Eve is just to sit in a POS and bridge.
Anthar Thebess
#142 - 2014-07-07 12:12:25 UTC

Yes you are right. There is a problem in timers, but at the same time way current blobs are handling them.
You just drop into the system 200 capitals or 600 subcapitals and wait for someone to come or escalate.
TIDI will allow to put more people on the grid if they are needed.
It will be hard to brake this , that's why i suggest escalating cost , so there will be no point of dropping 500 man fleet to defend pos in lowsec or in space that you don't live , as cost of this one time timer will be so high that this pos will be working for next 2-3 months to pay for it.
Someone will ref it again next day , you will come - then this is half year , and ...

Timers timings , yes somewhat important , but again look at current game status.
Without dividing big blobs no one else will be able to hold every thing.

Eve Dying?
No, just loosing player base.
Less players is less content.
Every one confirm this, and current sov, and null mechanic enforces those blobs.

Less content if space will be held by hundred alliances and moving on the other edge of universe will be taking a lot of time?
No, outcome will be much opposite.
Now there is no content unless big entities clash , and even then it is about grinding hundreds of poses, ihubs, stations on a totally nonsense timers.
Fight? "We have 600 people in the system , come to us ... meanwhile rep every thing"
Big Fight? "10%" TIDI, but real will be around 0.05% for 17hours.

Now think about small scale version, where we have fleets up to 100 people clashing on main timers all around eve, as more alliances means more reasons to have a fight.


Next stuff , spool up timer on capitals.
From my perspective : im a poor guy that owns 4 capital characters , each have capital ships , i train , and still training them in a way that all use the same ones. Cheaper logistics - each character can trade capital to another , etc.
So i will just use other ship.
In case of fight , this will be big nonsense , as first person that will come to the system will have big advantage - his capitals can evacuate asap , so something is going wrong? Clear tackle , jump out.

What kind of roots?
Like in tree.
How many people started to play eve to build?
How many where lured by the possibility to fly spaceships?
How many are here to blow those ships?

So increasing availability of spaceships, and increasing the price is a step in the wrong way.
Ships should be cheaper , so you can loose/kill more of them for the same amount of isk.

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Anthar Thebess
#143 - 2014-07-07 12:22:46 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Well, if we wanna go the route of limiting power projection, how about starting with something smaller and more incremental? How about we just remove Titan bridging? I mean it wouldn't solve the whole problem but it would be a start.

I've always felt uneasy about the idea that 99% of Titans' role in Eve is just to sit in a POS and bridge.


You cannot do only this.
I hate them, as much as you probably.
I still remember moment when someone hacked titans accounts and most of our titans where gone.
Alliance on line number went up, as "we will not be sitting on the F***g titan"

Back to the topic.

Now we have 2 big powers :
CFC
NCPL

Nerf capital jump capabilities :
- NCPL is bad at subcapitals , and they have low numbers to win CFC sub capital blob

Nerf titan bridge:
- CFC is bad at capitals, they have many , but like NCPL at some point that is not enough. Titan bridging sub capitals saves their capital fleets.


Both sides are at "Cold War" : You don't touch us , we won't touch you.
During Hallowen War , on the critical moment CFC pulled their forces from the fields , just to not kill the only coalition that could provide "enemy" for their empire, as empires without enemy fall very fast.
That's why this is big blue donut.

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#144 - 2014-07-07 12:45:08 UTC
You make a good point about replacement caps to avoid the timmers. But at least would keep super capitals as slow response.

What you want to achieve is good, but limitign jump to adjacent system is not because will not curtail mobility. Will create serious choke points and even more stagnations. Unless you add several dozen extra low sec system just to provide alternative routes on those points. And then you need to solve the problem of the low sec pockets....

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#145 - 2014-07-07 13:02:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Ab'del Abu
I like OP's vision of nullsec! If it ever became that way, might be I'd consinder going back there ...

My two cents:

- power projection: while drastic measures might be in order to really fix null, OP's proposal for jump tech. seems to be somewhat extreme. Rendering capital ships pretty much stationary would essentially render them useless (I'd rather see all caps removed from the game, but I fear we're well past that point What?).

Excluding jump freighters (making logistics harder might not necessarily be healthy for the game) and BLOPS , there should be a hard limit on jump range (say 10 ly) with a cooldown of 12-16h. This would include titan bridges. Capital ships themselves get the cooldown as well to prevent people from using alts to move their stuff. Allow capital ships one gate-jump per 12-16h oO

Why?
- Spontaneous usage of capitals is now restricted to the current region + maybe adjacent regions
- Deploying capitals takes time and leaves your home vulnerable if you're going to conquer another region or help out allies
- The one gate-jump allows for using the inter-regional stargates that often times cover very huge distances

as for more/other conflict drivers:
- FW-style complexes that have an impact on SOV --> interesting for solo and micro-gang stuff
- Player initiated incursions that shut down or reduce bounty payments for a constellation or whole region
- Rats on gates --> No bounties at all in the system

And on a slightly different topic: Make AFKtars work EVERYWHERE in nullsec :>

EDIT: I realize this would **** with getting carriers/dreads into wormholes as well ... maybe it's a bad idea then Roll
Anthar Thebess
#146 - 2014-07-07 13:07:36 UTC
Spool timers are bad, as it will just lead to more capitals.
You need to use capitals 5 times a day? Buy 10 carriers , you will have plenty of reserve.
Fast relocation ?
Un - rigged carriers here we come.
Repackage on each station, bit annoying , but it can be done.

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Steph Livingston
Neko's Blanket
#147 - 2014-07-07 13:23:27 UTC
I haven't been in a 0.0 alliance for quite awhile, but it seems to me the problem with stagnation isn't the ability for alliances to move their forces from point to point but the time, and fire power, required to dislodge an entrenched alliance.

Reinforcement timers allow alliances ample time to re-position fleets and, for the most part, choose when to engage. It's useful for small alliances with a few members, but makes the big coalitions almost impossible to dislodge. A few hours to a small alliance is a few dozen ships, to a coalition it's putting the system into TDI.

Instead of limiting force projection, I rather like the idea of an area of influence mechanic in sov space. Each alliance chooses a system to be their seat of power, where their influence will strongest. Every jump away from this system will have a lower influence score, eventually resulting in systems where the alliance has 0 influence.

As a mechanic, influence would represent how long a system would hold out against aggressors. The Seat of power would have the longest re-reinforcement timers, letting alliances set up defenses, and boarder systems would be reinforced for mere hours, if at all.

It allows the current system to be more fluid. If you wanted to hold lots of territory, you can do it but you need pilots available at a moment's notice. If you want to hold small amounts of territory, you can afford to be a little more strategic and choose your battles.

It also allows small groups to actually be a little more effective. You don't have to send a capital fleet in to battle every time, if the boarder systems have no reinforcement timer you could run and try to grab systems before a defense could be mounted.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#148 - 2014-07-07 13:36:59 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Spool timers are bad, as it will just lead to more capitals.
You need to use capitals 5 times a day? Buy 10 carriers , you will have plenty of reserve.
Fast relocation ?
Un - rigged carriers here we come.
Repackage on each station, bit annoying , but it can be done.




Tie the timer to the pilot.. easy.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Anthar Thebess
#149 - 2014-07-07 13:40:28 UTC
Steph Livingston wrote:

SOV HOLDING ALLIANCE A
SOV HOLDING ALLIANCE B
SOV HOLDING ALLIANCE C
SOV HOLDING ALLIANCE D
...

Easy to overcome, but can be part of solution.
Why?
Because the more things to manage , the bigger possibility for something go wrong.

I think instead of influence , increasing sov bill for the distance from capitol , will be enough.

No one will want to pay 7bill to keep sov in a system on the 3 regions away.
This will force also changes to the JB network.

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Anthar Thebess
#150 - 2014-07-07 13:41:36 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Spool timers are bad, as it will just lead to more capitals.
You need to use capitals 5 times a day? Buy 10 carriers , you will have plenty of reserve.
Fast relocation ?
Un - rigged carriers here we come.
Repackage on each station, bit annoying , but it can be done.




Tie the timer to the pilot.. easy.

A bit harder to overcome, i have 4 capital pilots.
Damn need more.

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Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#151 - 2014-07-07 14:00:04 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Spool timers are bad, as it will just lead to more capitals.
You need to use capitals 5 times a day? Buy 10 carriers , you will have plenty of reserve.
Fast relocation ?
Un - rigged carriers here we come.
Repackage on each station, bit annoying , but it can be done.




Tie the timer to the pilot.. easy.

A bit harder to overcome, i have 4 capital pilots.
Damn need more.


Hmm well if you put timers on ships (regardless of them being repacked inbetween - surely CCP can make that happen) and on pods/characters, that might work
Anthar Thebess
#152 - 2014-07-07 14:02:03 UTC
Well i don't say no.
Something is better than nothing.
But you need to include the same thing for titan bridges.
What about jump freighters.

For some regions you just made a very long trip for a JF.

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#153 - 2014-07-07 14:27:14 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Well i don't say no.
Something is better than nothing.
But you need to include the same thing for titan bridges.
What about jump freighters.

For some regions you just made a very long trip for a JF.



Titan bridges are even more critical than jump drives sure. I would say probably a limit on how many times a ship can cross a titan bridge ( if you put the limit on the titans themselves that will change nothing).


The fine details are irrelevant the problem is that your original proposal cannot be implemented because severeal parts of low sec become completely disconnected from the rest of universe and some rather large regions get chockepointed bya single system (just increasing the any fight will be a full super capital fight dilema).

I can appreciate the feeling that a 1 system per time advance would create. The need to make a frontline move slowly..
But on current even geography that would cause so many problems that it becomes almost unfeasible.

Other thing that could help would be to create a class of cyno jammer that is way easier to install. No need of sov. Just make it fragile and appear on overview of everybody in system. That would mean that you NEED to send initial forces to deal with those before capital movements. Yes its only a small delay but at least create chance for smaller scale fights to matter.


Also, MY PERSONAL VIEW THAAT WILL MAKE LOTS OF PEOPLE ANGRY.. I think supercapital ships shoudl have a manteinance fee. Just like real life warships are a strain on the economy of their countries because of huge mantaeinace costs. Make that SERIOUS cost. Like Titans would cost 20 BIL per month or they become unusable. Half of that for motherships shoudl be ok.

THe result? Creates a situation that having a huge fleet and not using it becomes stupid. THere will be an urge to use them , because in a full stagnated year the ship will have costed itself again in fees. Eventually that would reduce the incentive to have super massive super capital fleets mothballed waitign for wars that will never happen.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Araneatrox
I like space and spaceships
xXPlease Pandemic Citizens Reloaded Alliance.Xx
#154 - 2014-07-07 14:41:33 UTC
I find it rare that i agree with PL on things, but i must say i do like alot of these changes.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#155 - 2014-07-07 14:44:12 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
Well, if we wanna go the route of limiting power projection, how about starting with something smaller and more incremental? How about we just remove Titan bridging? I mean it wouldn't solve the whole problem but it would be a start.

I've always felt uneasy about the idea that 99% of Titans' role in Eve is just to sit in a POS and bridge.

The problem is that the titan as a combat ship is a broken idea, and that we want to increase it's non-combat uses so there is more room to decrease its combat uses. The titan has been a nonstop problem for combat balance since it was introduced with the hilarious idea there would only ever be a few of them. It's too late to simply delete them, so a non-combat role has to be found. You won't get there by nerfing the only good one it's got.
Midori Tsu
Evolution
Northern Coalition.
#156 - 2014-07-07 14:45:37 UTC
I think that having timers and costs affected by usage are something that should be added. But i do have worries over this making the game tedious and unfun, which not every enjoys.

I may of missed it, but how will this affect blackops?
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#157 - 2014-07-07 14:46:35 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:

Easy to overcome, but can be part of solution.
Why?
Because the more things to manage , the bigger possibility for something go wrong.

I think instead of influence , increasing sov bill for the distance from capitol , will be enough.

No one will want to pay 7bill to keep sov in a system on the 3 regions away.
This will force also changes to the JB network.

This is a bad idea because you're still just trying to tweak a bad system that has incredible difficulty getting around being gamed by alt alliances. The correct solution is to go back to something like pos fuel: the farther-stretched your empire is, the more your logistics are overtaxed and something will go wrong.
Wentworth III
Oblivion Watch
HYDRA RELOADED
#158 - 2014-07-07 15:19:26 UTC
Interesting solutions but I'm afraid the coalitions would not break up as a result. When the best income is directly dependent on the amount of sov owned, it makes sense for alliances to collaborate rather than fight.

The only way to really break up the coalitions would be to make renting less profitable to the extent that it could not support a coalition of 50,000+ characters. But that's impossible if you think about it. The only other option is to outlaw renting, but CCP wouldn't dare interfere with the whole ~sandbox~ narrative.
Anthar Thebess
#159 - 2014-07-07 15:22:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:

Easy to overcome, but can be part of solution.
Why?
Because the more things to manage , the bigger possibility for something go wrong.

I think instead of influence , increasing sov bill for the distance from capitol , will be enough.

No one will want to pay 7bill to keep sov in a system on the 3 regions away.
This will force also changes to the JB network.

This is a bad idea because you're still just trying to tweak a bad system that has incredible difficulty getting around being gamed by alt alliances. The correct solution is to go back to something like pos fuel: the farther-stretched your empire is, the more your logistics are overtaxed and something will go wrong.


I don't think that this is perfect idea, but it is better than nothing , and it should be applied with others.
We already have multiple material sinks, but eve lacks good isk sinks.

And this solution discourages big sov holdings , and as number of jumps is the "key" also jump bridges have to be redesigned.
It will have to be more of them to keep current connections.

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#160 - 2014-07-07 15:29:45 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:

Easy to overcome, but can be part of solution.
Why?
Because the more things to manage , the bigger possibility for something go wrong.

I think instead of influence , increasing sov bill for the distance from capitol , will be enough.

No one will want to pay 7bill to keep sov in a system on the 3 regions away.
This will force also changes to the JB network.

This is a bad idea because you're still just trying to tweak a bad system that has incredible difficulty getting around being gamed by alt alliances. The correct solution is to go back to something like pos fuel: the farther-stretched your empire is, the more your logistics are overtaxed and something will go wrong.



wow wowo no no.. he might be right... conceptually That system is basically what civilization 3 used to cosntrain the limits of your empire. The metagame result was that players tryed to concentrate their empire a lot.

Problem arises in the coalitions.

How to solve it? You pay a price for EACH station that your alliance CAN DOCK! BE it yours or not. With price increasing with distance. Obviously you must have the option to remove your own alliance docking rights from stations that you do not want to dock (avoid enemy abusing).

Just throwing ideas... mmmmmmm

That will make extremely undesirable to hold a station far far away from your capital.....

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"