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Changes to SOV , Power Projection & Nullsec Stagnation

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Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#121 - 2014-07-06 23:54:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Galphii
One of the reasons for the introduction of jump drives was to circumvent gate camps and choke points. This can stil be achieved with a slight change in the function of stargates. They currently function as pitchers and catchers, providing transit between star systems by putting you ship into a wormhole cannon and pulling the trigger.

To get around the possibility of the destination gate being a choke point, simply change the stargates so instead of sending you to the destination gate in the other system, they shoot you to within several million kilometres of the destination star (the exact entry point would be random), effectively using its stellar mass as the target.

This prevents bottlenecks, gate camping, and that issue of rushing back to the gate, de-agressing etc. warp to 0 on gates might need to be removed, resulting in a return to the days when the exit gate was the hot spot. Perhaps warp to 10km would be a better choice than warp to 15. Preventing bookmarks being made within 120km of a stargate would remove the old 'warp to 0 bookmark' issues of the past, too. Hunting ships near the target star as a hostile fleet comes through could make things very interesting indeed.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#122 - 2014-07-07 03:24:52 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:


I would caution smugglers gates and streamlining gate travel as it could only strengthen power projection. People who live in the outlying areas of space should do so because its more remote and space further from empire should be richer. Again the idea with a power projection nerf would be to create new mechanics that allow nullsec groups to get rid of the tether to empire.




Unfortunately nullsec is much too flat right now and the regions that supposedly should be richer to make this work, aren't.

The other thing with the point you're making about gates is that it's true if they're player built and then put up everywhere. If they were for whatever reason NPC gates, carefully placed and limited to facilitate an option for travel into deep nullsec, that'd be another matter. Yes you could cut twenty, thirty jumps off your freighter convoy, but man isn't that an obvious route to take with no way around once you're on it, it'd be a shame if someone were waiting for you.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#123 - 2014-07-07 03:36:21 UTC
First things first, i will give a shameless plug for my Sov Idea!!!

Now, I'm very glad to see that there is a good amount of debate happening over Sov, power projection and the like.

My quick suggestions:



  • As noted in my proposal, make sov space upgradeable to accommodate any number of players that are willing to put the time, effort and ISK forward to do so.

  • Make it so that activity in a Sov. system is necessary to maintain Sov, and areas that are less used cannot maintain their Sov. (This keeps empty space available to take - conflict driver)

  • Make it so that bringing a larger force (hot dropping Supers or using Titans to bridge) is a necessary logistical tactic, rather than something to do out of boredom (unless you want to waste ISK/resources) (this gives smaller groups a small buffer against being blapped out of existence "just because I can")

  • Make it so that if a group (alliance/corp) wants to produce something locally, the logistics of it are not untenable if that group does not have a JF(in such a way that I can mine/react things to make what I need to a certain extent)

  • Make is so that if a smallish group is active and wants to maintain a small area of Sov space, they have the tools to reasonably defend against a larger entity (by creating Sov mechanics that give the defender certain advantages when ACTIVELY defending)

  • Make it so that a cyno field either has a spool up time to be available to jump to, or make it so that only a single ship can pass through a bridge at a time, and there is a short cool down timer between successive jumps. (for one, to slow down the escalation of supers/Capitals, and for two, to give the defender a reasonable ability to muster a defense)

  • Make moongoo mining similar to PI, and allow any number of extraction opportunities for that moon, and make the requirements for moongoo significantly larger. The idea of moon mining is antiquated and serves as a poor conflict driver and forces coalitions to expand more and more to keep their SRP funded. If CCP wants a regionally created conflict driver, this shouldn't be it, because it hasn't become it yet!



Cedric
Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Fraternity.
#124 - 2014-07-07 04:04:44 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Manfred Sideous wrote:


I would caution smugglers gates and streamlining gate travel as it could only strengthen power projection. People who live in the outlying areas of space should do so because its more remote and space further from empire should be richer. Again the idea with a power projection nerf would be to create new mechanics that allow nullsec groups to get rid of the tether to empire.




Unfortunately nullsec is much too flat right now and the regions that supposedly should be richer to make this work, aren't.

The other thing with the point you're making about gates is that it's true if they're player built and then put up everywhere. If they were for whatever reason NPC gates, carefully placed and limited to facilitate an option for travel into deep nullsec, that'd be another matter. Yes you could cut twenty, thirty jumps off your freighter convoy, but man isn't that an obvious route to take with no way around once you're on it, it'd be a shame if someone were waiting for you.


Most of the fun of freighter ops back in the day was the content it created. More content drivers!

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#125 - 2014-07-07 04:19:35 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
You have a straaaange idea of what 'content' means or when it's actually fun, I think (the first time you get jumped maybe, the thirtieth time you don't, not so much...) but the option to take a faster but more obvious (and so quite possibly riskier) route wouldn't diminish from the idea either. P

e: In some ways this touches on one of the merits of jump freighters, really - they enable the boring tedium that is "moving crap around", especially for those out in null, to be done by one dude or a small team, who are often handsomely compensated for their labor. When it comes to "doing tedious crap", one player or a small group of players having good tools to do it isn't actually a bad thing, after all. Makes them similarly accessible to the notional 'little guy' too - don't have to have tons and tons of manpower to draw on to have one guy with a JF and a few cyno alts.

Too safe, too fast, too easy - perhaps so, but they're divergent issues and addressing them doesn't necessarily have to mean just eliminating JFs as a useful tool at all.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Amber Lana
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#126 - 2014-07-07 05:14:36 UTC
I like the idea of making null more spread out, reducing cap ships' ability to get very far very quickly.

"And it rained tears for fourty days and fourty nights."
Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Fraternity.
#127 - 2014-07-07 06:07:41 UTC
Amber Lana wrote:
I like the idea of making null more spread out, reducing cap ships' ability to get very far very quickly.


It's not just caps its subcaps moving via expansive Jumpbridge networks. My side uses Capitals and Jumdrives the otherside uses Subcaps and Jumpbridges. There is no way for new parties to enter nullsec without the blessing of the existing two blocks. I think that is stupid I know there are tons of players , corporations and alliances that would like to come to nullsec and have a piece for themselves. They aren't asking for much all they want is a fair chance. One that won't see a giant coalition come down on them. As it stands they have very few choices. The barrier for entry is so high its ridiculous. Even if they do have the assets and isk to make a play they need the out of game infrastructure experienced block level FC & the ability to compete in the Meta Game. As things stand they are beaten before they ever decide to start.

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#128 - 2014-07-07 07:17:20 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:

Most of the fun of freighter ops back in the day was the content it created. More content drivers!


You mean the nowadays 100% assured drop on your freighter protection fleet, which instablaps the freighter and smokes the rest of the fleet? ^^

That's not really content... that's shallow entertainment because the opposing party is incapable of creating meaningful content on their own. Instead, the dire need for easy targets to fix killboards or have something green show up killboards at all prohibits such activities in most cases these days.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Anthar Thebess
#129 - 2014-07-07 07:23:14 UTC
Exactly both things have to be changed jumpdrives and jump bridges (both pos and titan ones )

Still spreading universe a bit could be some way to do it without even touching this mechanic , but i don't know what will be simpler.

Let say that all current regions will be moved away from each other so no direct capital jumps are possible ( SOV Region <> SOV Region )
The only way to move a capital to some region is using some NPC <> SOV connection (closer constellation a system that is much closer or something like this)

This will be also interesting from other perspective , as keeping this system safe will be the point of securing some region.

Still the best solution is to mix them and get as much changes into this game as possible.

I know that this is probably bad idea , what do you think about putting to a supers additional requirement that when activating regional jump they have to spoil their drive on a sun for few minutes ?

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Anthar Thebess
#130 - 2014-07-07 07:26:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Manfred Sideous wrote:

Most of the fun of freighter ops back in the day was the content it created. More content drivers!


You mean the nowadays 100% assured drop on your freighter protection fleet, which instablaps the freighter and smokes the rest of the fleet? ^^

That's not really content... that's shallow entertainment because the opposing party is incapable of creating meaningful content on their own. Instead, the dire need for easy targets to fix killboards or have something green show up killboards at all prohibits such activities in most cases these days.


But that's the reason why many people stopped to play eve , as it become boring.
Hotdrops, and especially capital hotdrops (NCPL) everywhere on everything.
This is not denying someone afk ratting by a lone cloaky bomber , but this is killing actual content for every one.

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Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#131 - 2014-07-07 07:44:51 UTC
mynnna wrote:


e: In some ways this touches on one of the merits of jump freighters, really - they enable the boring tedium that is "moving crap around", especially for those out in null, to be done by one dude or a small team, who are often handsomely compensated for their labor. When it comes to "doing tedious crap", one player or a small group of players having good tools to do it isn't actually a bad thing, after all.


Totally disagree with your statement here.

This is *because* large groups can do a lot in-game with small numbers of actual players "doing" and large numbers of players "following" that the control these groups achieve appears so overwhelming, as they don't suffer the natural loss of efficiency effect or splinter risk that should be inherent to any large scale organization.

It is interesting that CCP has implemented an design in the modules fitting to decrease exponentially the efficiency of redundant extra modules of the same type that nobody is questioning, and yet the same principles somehow would not be applied beyond module fitting, where they could be a solution to reduce the efficiency of large groups (and improve game play for the majority

For example...

In a large fleet, applying more than three non DPS effects on the same ship would not provide any extra benefits. The FC would need to break down their fleets in squad with a real role to play for each squad leader, multiplying the risk of independent decision making at each squad level.

The cost of jumping to a cyno, or jbridging ships , or using jump bridges, could be exponential when done over a short period of time. This would be making jumping large fleets numbers from the same starting point very expensive very quickly, where this cost would be kept lower by multiplying the starting points , and as such involving more players, rather than having a single alt from one of the boss doing all the work.

SOV structure could decay over time, lowering their hit points and their timers duration with an exponential acceleration rythmu, and requiring a specific type of maintenance at regular intervals to replenish hit points and timers. Maintenance would require a specific type of ship that can only be assembled in high sec, can't be hauled, and can't use any bridges. These would be fairly fragile while doing the maintenance work on a SOV structure., and fairly resistant while traveling, but without any combat capabilities. They would require some local protection to be brought to SOV locations, as well as when performing maintenance, thus forcing large alliances to keep active players in each constellation.

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Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#132 - 2014-07-07 09:44:28 UTC
Make EVE bigger.

1. Nerf range, (jump clones, jump bridges, jump drives) (**** all you can do about alts)

or

2. add lots of space, 75000+ new systems. 65% null, 15% low, 5% high( I would also add newb training grounds here4-20 systems), 15% WH

And some of the better suggestions from this thread.
Anthar Thebess
#133 - 2014-07-07 10:10:01 UTC
I say more clones , but just limit maximum number of locations you can have them , max 2-3 locations.
No change timer on a clones in the same station, just isk cost , so no longer a 2b+ clone will hold someone from going to AF/Ceptor roam.

More space , 75 000 systems?
Yes this could be nice , but I don't think that this will ever happen.
1. More systems, needs bigger infrastructure.
2. Bigger infrastructure , cost more
3. Player base is dropping

Will the CCP risk increased cost to raise their customer numbers ?
No when the issue is not in the size of universe , but in the reason why it become so small.

I suggest more small NPC pockets , and connections to the NPC space from each SOV region.
You could say, that this will make eve even smaller , but from my perspective, it will put more pressure to live in this regions . and i also assume that other changes will be done.

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#134 - 2014-07-07 10:22:25 UTC
Limiting how far a capital ship can jump just doe snto work because makes impossble to traverse high sec using the low sec pockets as is done now.

Simply creating a timer between any jump drive activation of like 5-10 minutes would be more than enough to make capital ship fleet movement slower, but not harder.

Also titan bridges are much much more problematic on the fast response field than t capital ship jump drives. Somethign shoudl be done so they are not so overhelmingly powerful. That is by far the most powerful ability in game ( and rightfully belongign on the largest of the ships), but if its used as commonly as I use my cell phone, then something is amiss.




On the sov things. I left 0.0 after dominion because the sov changes just pushed even MORE towards the worst thing in 0.0. Massive HP grinding of structures.

Remember station services? Why the disabling of services basically failed as a feature? Because the ammount of EHP is ridiculous . No one wants to spend 1 hour with an average fleet to take services out or need to bring a capital ship blob to take services of a station.

We need more targets that are EASY to disable (and then also easy to repair) so that smaller incursions are doable and not everythign need huge fleets.

Station services woudl be a start. Cut their EHP to 10% of current. Half Jump bridges EHP. Move moon mining pos modules to outside POS shield so they can be disabled in a reasonably short time by a moderate gagn that is not responded when incursioning at an enemy space... Things like that make smaller gangs more meaningful, promoting more chances of combats (and smaller combats) and usually way more fun engagements that wehn combined with a timer on capital jump drives woudl mean not every single fight is under constang risk of a hotdrop.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Anthar Thebess
#135 - 2014-07-07 10:46:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Limiting how far a capital ship can jump just doe snto work because makes impossble to traverse high sec using the low sec pockets as is done now.


Sorry , but no.
The whole point of people suggestions is to change this, and there is no difference if this is lowsec or a nullsec.
What eve needs is to be big again, where moving from one edge of universe to another in a capital or super will not take <1h.

You suggest timer between jumps, it will not change nothing.
Ops will just start a bit ealier , and this will make capital, and especially supercapital usage more safer.

I think , whole point of changes made by CCP should focus on making sov holding alliances much more tied up to space they own.

There will be always place for deployment in other side of eve , as eve is a game of alts.

I'm not saying that this will be easy job , but it is something that ccp have to do.

Just look at this webpage , and "all times" graph.
Players Online

Current numbers put active player base number around 2011 , and it is still dropping.

You can say that every thing CCP gained since Incarna it is now gone or even more from what i see Quantum Rise was also expansion that put the active player base above this number , and this is 2008.

People where not waiting for Industry re haul , yes it is nice , players online will jump a bit for 2-3 months and then again they will start dropping.

People where asking CCP for certain changes , and where again ignored.
How long people are asking for pos system rehaul? or for a sov mechanic changes? or for different cyno / jump mechanics? supercapital changes?

Something that relay matters , and what we will get?
More expensive ships, more expensive logistics , so less people willing to burn their isk in ships.
Nice industry interface , that will benefit a very small group of players , as one skilled character have 50? or more production lines , but when on grid , he can fly only one ship.

Eh, yes you can say that i'm worried about eve.
This is nice game , but it is falling apart, because instead of growing ... devs are cutting roots just to make it more colourful and shiny , like this is the reason why most of the players play in this game.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

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Syd Unknown
#136 - 2014-07-07 11:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Syd Unknown
In my opinion one of the big problems that causes powerprojection are the timers...
People can set the timers to their likings, so they have WAY to much time to get their defending numbers in.
Timers should be MUCH shorter, so the defenders have to be CLOSE to their defending system to be able to always defend it.
If an Alliance wants to take SOV they can prepare for it and Blitz it.
The Defending Alliance should be either there to defend it, or loose it.
timers should not be ANY longer then 24 hours. (or maybe even 3 stages of 8 hours each)
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#137 - 2014-07-07 11:37:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tchulen
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Eh, yes you can say that i'm worried about eve.
This is nice game , but it is falling apart, because instead of growing ... devs are cutting roots just to make it more colourful and shiny , like this is the reason why most of the players play in this game.


Just for a bit of clarity, people have been complaining about a "big blue donut" for years and people have been complaining that "EVE is dying" and "EVE is falling apart" for years as well.

This doesn't necessarily mean it is. People complain about a lot of stuff. For some people EVE is working just fine as it is.

What roots are the devs cutting?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#138 - 2014-07-07 11:46:42 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Limiting how far a capital ship can jump just doe snto work because makes impossble to traverse high sec using the low sec pockets as is done now.


Sorry , but no.
The whole point of people suggestions is to change this, and there is no difference if this is lowsec or a nullsec.
What eve needs is to be big again, where moving from one edge of universe to another in a capital or super will not take <1h.

You suggest timer between jumps, it will not change nothing.
Ops will just start a bit ealier , and this will make capital, and especially supercapital usage more safer.

I think , whole point of changes made by CCP should focus on making sov holding alliances much more tied up to space they own.

There will be always place for deployment in other side of eve , as eve is a game of alts.

I'm not saying that this will be easy job , but it is something that ccp have to do.

Just look at this webpage , and "all times" graph.
Players Online

Current numbers put active player base number around 2011 , and it is still dropping.

You can say that every thing CCP gained since Incarna it is now gone or even more from what i see Quantum Rise was also expansion that put the active player base above this number , and this is 2008.

People where not waiting for Industry re haul , yes it is nice , players online will jump a bit for 2-3 months and then again they will start dropping.

People where asking CCP for certain changes , and where again ignored.
How long people are asking for pos system rehaul? or for a sov mechanic changes? or for different cyno / jump mechanics? supercapital changes?

Something that relay matters , and what we will get?
More expensive ships, more expensive logistics , so less people willing to burn their isk in ships.
Nice industry interface , that will benefit a very small group of players , as one skilled character have 50? or more production lines , but when on grid , he can fly only one ship.

Eh, yes you can say that i'm worried about eve.
This is nice game , but it is falling apart, because instead of growing ... devs are cutting roots just to make it more colourful and shiny , like this is the reason why most of the players play in this game.




Making harder and making it impossible are different things. Your proposal would make even less conflicts possible because would be impossible to wage war against someone that you have no borders with. It should be harder.. but not nearly impossible. You can extend the timer to whatever you need to adjust. Even make is 15 minutes.. then 30 minutes to next, then 60 min .. keep growing... until you wait 24 h for the jump drive to reload.

Planned ops would still have capitals ships present but the fights happenign at other system would not escalate so fast to capital fights, because comiting to a hotdrop could mean you woudl have your capital fleet strained in a system for hours.. unable to respond to an action somewhere else.... and there is where easier to kill targets also come by. On this time laspe, it must be possible for the agressors to cause real damage.


You do not make people more tied up to their own sov by making them stuck there. You make them tied up there because going too far will make you vulnerable and strained.. and making that a very bad move strategically wise. You need to make hard to return to defend your home before a third party causes heavy damage to your infrastructure. I fyou make travelign so hard and only that.. you make harder for an alliance to project power.. but make their own home system EVEN SAFER!!! That goes all against the target of tieing up alliances to their local territories!


Simple exaplanation. We have 3 imaginary countries... each one could mobilize their forces and invade deep enemy territory in 1h and return on same time. Takes about 10 hours to hurt enough an undefended country. What that means? That any country can project their power into other territory and feel safe enough that nothing wrong can happen at home before they can return. IF you multiply the travel time by 5. The result is EXACLTY the same!!!! How you change this? You make the time to cause serious damage to be UNDER the time it takes for the forces to be redeployed back home.



Also another HUGE impact is.. what happens to all the people with capital ships strained in low sec pockets inside high sec?

You cannot make any change that will make capital ships currently in game stuck somewhere.



Eve player downfall is due to the stupid grind focused combat that ccp started to enforce in Dominion. That makes everythgin take eges, made everythign static. Back in BOB wars age we coudl take over a system with smaller forces, respond more quickly and the fightign did nto need to culminate ina huge battle to grind a structure or attack the grinding force. It was way more tactical . Now eve focus in HUGE numbers on a fleet to do anything... ANYTHING. Anythign relevant to shot have BILLIONS EHP ( hyperbole here) . We need several WEAK and important targets that can be hit and disabled by small groups (and no small is not a 50 man gang.. small is 10 people) to promote more of smaller engagements.

Also CCP needs to make far far more intertesting PVE, because like it or not a lot of players like PVE and even if we do not understand why.. they are still players and help pay the bill. I woudl even go to say.. bring level 5 missiong into high sec with the appropriate reduction of income...

Also something that ALWAYS attract people back.. NEw ships... but make new T1 ships.. so they are not hugely expensive ships that people do not want to risk in pvp.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#139 - 2014-07-07 11:47:40 UTC
Syd Unknown wrote:
In my opinion one of the big problems that causes powerprojection are the timers...
People can set the timers to their likings, so they have WAY to much time to get their defending numbers in.
Timers should be MUCH shorter, so the defenders have to be CLOSE to their defending system to be able to always defend it.
If an Alliance wants to take SOV they can prepare for it and Blitz it.
The Defending Alliance should be either there to defend it, or loose it.
timers should not be ANY longer then 24 hours. (or maybe even 3 stages of 8 hours each)



That is part of the problem... as I explained in my previous post. THe problem is that is irrelevant to leave your home systems undefended!!!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#140 - 2014-07-07 12:06:08 UTC
Forgot to add.. one of the reasons of player sub drop is NOT null state. Is the CCP mentality if ignoring players real issues because goes against the ego or illusion of one or more of their employees. Simple example? The damm jump animation that makes lots of people sick. I personally know 3 people that stopped playing because ccp simply refuses to add a disable option on that useless feature and basically condemns people with motion sickness to get sick while playing their game.

Ignoring issues that clearly are not hard to solve in detriment of real players experiences is the same thign that happened in incarna and is the core reason why so many people stop playing.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"