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Get Rid of Learning Implants?

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Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#141 - 2014-06-17 22:10:45 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Shivanthar wrote:
I can tell you one more thing. You said the problem is theoretical, but the problem is very practical. I've been missioning for 5 years. I'd fun. Let's say you had fun in null for same 5 years.
Now I'm switching to null. We both had fun for 5 years. Same game, same story, different aspects, now I'm coming to same place as you, with 5 months ahead. The theoretical thing here is that if we continue to play this game, it is *nearly* impossible for you to close that gap in current mechanic. GG to my grandchildren see yours catching his sp.
I'll be nice and try to explain.

If you have 'missioned' for 5 years, then go to null to PVP with some dudes that have PVPed for 5 years, they will

repeatedly kick your behind over and over and over again.

Your choice to PVE 'safely' put you at a severe disadvantage to the other guys, even if you have 5% more (useless) SP.

This is just tossing something out there, as I'm neither here nor there regarding learning implants, but I think the point he's trying to make is that, while yes, the 5-year PvE'er will get trounced quite handily by the 5-year PvP'er, the PvE'er can improve and grow their RL skills until the two are essentially equal (while the PvP'er will always be ahead, the curve for PvP tapers off as time goes on, making the difference fairly negligible after a length of time). Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the PvP'er in terms of SP.


But it can, because the benefits from SP for the PvPer don't just taper off, they stop. Dead. You cannot improve the skills used to pilot any given ship at any given time beyond V. That is a hard cap on the benefits of SP that will never change.

Will the PvE player have access to more ships? Yes. Does it matter? Not really, because one of the most basic rules of winning a fight is knowing how to pick your fights. If the opponent has an obvious advantage because his ship is a hard counter to yours, you win when you warp out. Does it matter if you have a ship to counter his in a nearby hangar? Nope. Only ship that matters is the ship you point someone in, or get pointed in. Either you have the SP to pilot it or you don't, the rest is pure PvP experience, some of which informs you not to fly a ship that you can't use well into harsh situations.

And again, the golden rule: If you don't use the SP, it doesn't count as a reward. This is not a matter of 2+2=4 because it's not just risk/reward. It's risk-inconvenience/reward+fun with functionality as a floating modifier for either or both sides of the equation dependent on individual circumstances. Don't try and make this decision sound simple and don't try to pretend that you fully understand the motivations behind every player's choice when it comes to something like this.

Oh wait, there's that word again. Choice. Why do we want to remove choices from the game?

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
Torsnk
Mustang Capital
#142 - 2014-06-18 03:26:36 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Would you accept just removing +4 and +5 'pure learning' implants, without any attribute increase?


Yes, absolutely. One caveat: ALL implants that modify attributes should be removed (you can keep the other effects on hybrid implants, but attribute modifiers need to go). This change would meet the intent of my request. Fundamentally, I am not concerned with some absolute value of SP per unit time. Rather, I find the relative skill point gain from one player to another which rewards the risk averse and punishes the risk taker. As such, removing all learning implants (not just "pure" learning implants) from the game without a foundational attribute modifier is fine with me.

I don't remember who said it on this thread, but the point of their post was excellent: What if we never had learning implants (any implants that modified skill training times), but then CCP suddenly decided to reduce everyone's base attributes by 5 each and insert learning implants into the game? I honestly don't think that would be the type of change which would get a standing ovation at fanfest. On the contrary, I think it would be negatively received. The purpose of this thread is to reverse that negative decision regardless of the fact that it has been around for quite some time.

Also, as another option, if people are still determined to leave learning implants in the game that's fine. However, if that's the case, the implants should be removable without damaging them so as to not penalize players with a 19-24 hour (depending on skill level) clone jump timer. Players should be able to switch them out at will. I think this is a nice compromise if we can't come to a unified agreement on the removal of the implants altogether.
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#143 - 2014-06-18 06:05:27 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
[quote=Corraidhin Farsaidh][quote=Shivanthar]


"Choice and risk" part. This is where these implants are creating an adverse effect actually.
- OP says he stays in station. Even he logs off, he uses +5's passively without any risk involved. No risk, +5 training.
- A player in null, actively participating in warfare is the most opposite side of the story. He won't purhcase +5's because he is being podded every other day. He is playing with much greater risk, so he gets +0 ones.

See the pattern? These implants are simply breaking risk vs reward rule. They're working reverse.

Think reverse, if everyone would be able to train 2700 sp/hr equally, what would that do bad to Eve? What is so bad about this? I see more advantages than adverse effects, if any.


I think that the fact that null sec is littered with bubbles is why implants are used so little.
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Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#144 - 2014-06-18 06:31:00 UTC
I think that attribute implants are fine. If they were to go, then everyone shoud get +3 to all attributes. I would say plus 5 , but I never use anything above +3. You know what? make it +5 for the hell of it.

But, I should make it clear that if some one doesn't want to fight you, they wont. Even after this change people will find another reason not to undock or fight. Learning imps have nothing to do with that. No one should be force to do anything in this game might I add. 
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#145 - 2014-06-19 21:44:03 UTC
Torsnk wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Would you accept just removing +4 and +5 'pure learning' implants, without any attribute increase?


Yes, absolutely. One caveat: ALL implants that modify attributes should be removed (you can keep the other effects on hybrid implants, but attribute modifiers need to go). This change would meet the intent of my request. Fundamentally, I am not concerned with some absolute value of SP per unit time. Rather, I find the relative skill point gain from one player to another which rewards the risk averse and punishes the risk taker. As such, removing all learning implants (not just "pure" learning implants) from the game without a foundational attribute modifier is fine with me.

I don't remember who said it on this thread, but the point of their post was excellent: What if we never had learning implants (any implants that modified skill training times), but then CCP suddenly decided to reduce everyone's base attributes by 5 each and insert learning implants into the game? I honestly don't think that would be the type of change which would get a standing ovation at fanfest. On the contrary, I think it would be negatively received. The purpose of this thread is to reverse that negative decision regardless of the fact that it has been around for quite some time.

Also, as another option, if people are still determined to leave learning implants in the game that's fine. However, if that's the case, the implants should be removable without damaging them so as to not penalize players with a 19-24 hour (depending on skill level) clone jump timer. Players should be able to switch them out at will. I think this is a nice compromise if we can't come to a unified agreement on the removal of the implants altogether.





your example is goes from base line to worst with the possibility of reaching baseline again. Where as in eve we have the base line and implants to improve from the baseline.

The training time to use +5 offsets a lot of the gain from them over +4 which are available in the "pvp" set now.
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2014-06-20 03:23:24 UTC
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
Even after this change people will find another reason not to undock or fight. Learning imps have nothing to do with that.

*some people*

I wonder just how many people are out there that don't undock only because they don't want to lose their implants. I know I'm one of those.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#147 - 2014-06-20 08:13:47 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
Even after this change people will find another reason not to undock or fight. Learning imps have nothing to do with that.

*some people*

I wonder just how many people are out there that don't undock only because they don't want to lose their implants. I know I'm one of those.

I'm keeping my char in the learning/PvE clone over the week and switch to one of the PvP clones when I know I have plenty of time to pew pew, to make the clone jump worth it, mostly during the weekend. Without the learning implant attribute boost, I for sure would stay in the PvP clone per default ...

... I haven't done serious PvE in the last couple of months, cause it's boring as hell and frustrating if you have to run from every fight, you might lose.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Torsnk
Mustang Capital
#148 - 2014-06-20 13:30:36 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
your example is goes from base line to worst with the possibility of reaching baseline again. Where as in eve we have the base line and implants to improve from the baseline.


Regardless, the fundamental effect on the game is exactly the same (which was my point).

Lady Rift wrote:
The training time to use +5 offsets a lot of the gain from them over +4 which are available in the "pvp" set now.


It takes just over 355 days to gain back the skill points from Cybernetics IV to Cybernetics V (skill required to use +5s as opposed to +4s). So yes, it does take a significant amount of time. However, I have been playing for more than a year (as have many tens of thousands of other players) and have thus regained the time cost to train Cybernetics V.

Nonetheless, I don't feel that it added anything to the game for me to train that skill or sit in station with +5s to maximize SP/time. Which is why I am requesting that attribute modifying implants be deleted from the game (OR at the very least made "removable" without destruction so players aren't as heavily penalized for taking risk).

Calculated risk should offer the possibility of greater reward. Learning implants reverse this dynamic and thus disincentivize enjoyable game play. Which is why they should be removed.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2014-06-20 13:44:15 UTC
Torsnk wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
your example is goes from base line to worst with the possibility of reaching baseline again. Where as in eve we have the base line and implants to improve from the baseline.


Regardless, the fundamental effect on the game is exactly the same (which was my point).

Lady Rift wrote:
The training time to use +5 offsets a lot of the gain from them over +4 which are available in the "pvp" set now.


It takes just over 355 days to gain back the skill points from Cybernetics IV to Cybernetics V (skill required to use +5s as opposed to +4s). So yes, it does take a significant amount of time. However, I have been playing for more than a year (as have many tens of thousands of other players) and have thus regained the time cost to train Cybernetics V.

Nonetheless, I don't feel that it added anything to the game for me to train that skill or sit in station with +5s to maximize SP/time. Which is why I am requesting that attribute modifying implants be deleted from the game (OR at the very least made "removable" without destruction so players aren't as heavily penalized for taking risk).

Calculated risk should offer the possibility of greater reward. Learning implants reverse this dynamic and thus disincentivize enjoyable game play. Which is why they should be removed.


If it added nothing to the game for you as you won't risk the +5's then why do it? The +5's are obviously not the right choice for you, just use +4's instead, or the combat implants that also give +3's/+4's.

You made a choice and are not happy with it but that is the way of things with Eve. Many people are happy with learning implants as they are (and I don't just mean bittervets). I'm now eying up the combat implants myself for better performance with the attributes side effects, they'll be far more expensive and useful to me but hey, that's the risk and reward thing people keep mentioning :)
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#150 - 2014-06-20 14:28:57 UTC
I don't get how people can say they use +3's for PvP?

Sure, in low-sec, I know how to get my pod out. But I haven't set a foot in nullsec because of implant costs. That's literally my only reason.


If I wanted to live in null-sec and fight there constantly, I don't get how people can justify putting in +3's every time they undock. Losing 40mil everytime I try to fight in a 10mil frigate is terrible. Especially when I die more than once a day.


Also, I like how people are stating that somehow "fun" and "pvp skills" are rewards now. We should just remove LP from faction warfare because all the reward you need is the "fun" and "pvp skills" you get right?
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#151 - 2014-06-20 16:24:21 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
I don't get how people can say they use +3's for PvP?

Sure, in low-sec, I know how to get my pod out. But I haven't set a foot in nullsec because of implant costs. That's literally my only reason.


If I wanted to live in null-sec and fight there constantly, I don't get how people can justify putting in +3's every time they undock. Losing 40mil everytime I try to fight in a 10mil frigate is terrible. Especially when I die more than once a day.


Also, I like how people are stating that somehow "fun" and "pvp skills" are rewards now. We should just remove LP from faction warfare because all the reward you need is the "fun" and "pvp skills" you get right?



Maybe fly something bigger than a 10 mil frig. or if your only going to be flying frigs make good use for the 19 hour clone jumping.

and +1 are 300k a pop so 600k per clone
+2 are 3-4 mil a pop so 6-9 mil per clone
+3 are 9 mil a pop so 18 mil per clone.
+4 are 20 mil a pop so 40 mil per clone
+5 are 100 mil a pop so 200 mil per clone

get the one you can afford to lose lots per day or get a +3 set and only inject when your off to bed not that hard.
Torsnk
Mustang Capital
#152 - 2014-07-06 14:48:05 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
You made a choice and are not happy with it but that is the way of things with Eve. Many people are happy with learning implants as they are (and I don't just mean bittervets). I'm now eying up the combat implants myself for better performance with the attributes side effects, they'll be far more expensive and useful to me but hey, that's the risk and reward thing people keep mentioning :)


I'm not arguing about whether the choice I made was good or bad. I am saying that the choice even exists discourages active and enjoyable gameplay.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#153 - 2014-07-06 15:20:25 UTC
Doesn't discourage me, I choose lower implants as a comprimise between SP rate and isk risk and I'm happy with that. If you aren't happy with the isk risk of +5's then jump clone for a day ortwo or use lower implants. even +4's are only 20 mil each or so. I should probably upgrade to those as I'm happy with that level of risk.

It still comes back to the same thing. The training difference isn't that great between +3's and +5's and there is no skill that you absolutely have to have those 5 days faster for level V. If a player won't undock with expensive gear that is a mindset issue not a gameplay issue. Make your choices, make the comprimises you are happy to live with and take the risks that bring the rewards you want. If an item interferes with your choices I would really suggest not buying it
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#154 - 2014-07-06 18:13:33 UTC
Implants dont stop me PvPing, they do however stop me PvPing in THAT clone. Which is fine, I'm not anal retentive about SP/hour.

But I can see how silly that is, the risk reward is out of kilter at best but frankly closer to assbackwards: Dont risk the implants, biggest reward vs risk lesser implants, lesser reward.


And let's be clear, it's not "dont PvP" it's "dont roll in null, in THAT clone".

There is a reason that null pods are very rarely carrying anything shiny.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#155 - 2014-07-06 20:02:42 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Implants dont stop me PvPing, they do however stop me PvPing in THAT clone. Which is fine, I'm not anal retentive about SP/hour.

But I can see how silly that is, the risk reward is out of kilter at best but frankly closer to assbackwards: Dont risk the implants, biggest reward vs risk lesser implants, lesser reward.


And let's be clear, it's not "dont PvP" it's "dont roll in null, in THAT clone".

There is a reason that null pods are very rarely carrying anything shiny.


This point of view assumes the only reward is SP. I view it more holistically, youare getting a batter SP/Hour with +4's whilst actually flying and earning ISK/killing people instead of sitting in dock for the extra piddly bits of SP. So you are waiting for your +5's to help you finish training that level V BS skill with 2bil of implants in the clone. Once this finishes 5 days faster are you *really* going to jump into a 2 bil BS and risk that? Or are you going to comprimise on a cheaper t1 or pirate ship setup because you aren't happy with the ISK risk? Where's the difference? It probably brings the kind of person who won't undock expensive gear to the point where they can not undock an expensive ship they just trained more rapidly for because they are then scared of being ganked in the newly pimped deathmobile.

Also the clone a player is in need only have the 2 implants in for the skills they are training. Have 2 clones with a split of implants o halve the risked ISK, and a 3rd with +4's for PvP. Let's face it if you can afford the 100's mil ISK or however much it is for +5's then risking 40 mil for the 2 +4's for the current skill training is peanuts.

BTW the 'You's' above are general You's, not directed at you personally...
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2014-07-06 22:09:14 UTC
Nothing taken personally, it's fair comment, but you DONT just sit in dock - you simply don't go to null. I'd never use a 2B battleship - but an expensive pod in null is like an officer fit frigate, that's just the reality.

"That" clone hasn't even been jumped into in many a moon - I just use low level stuff (I'm talking +2/+3 here) as I live in null and death is far from uncommon.

As a player it matters not an iota to me, but the meta/risk-reward seems whack when I take a step back and look at it. Mind you, I LIKE that null pilots almost never have stupid implants, keeps everyone honest and you know what you're getting into 99% of the time.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2014-07-06 22:37:35 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Nothing taken personally, it's fair comment, but you DONT just sit in dock - you simply don't go to null. I'd never use a 2B battleship - but an expensive pod in null is like an officer fit frigate, that's just the reality.

"That" clone hasn't even been jumped into in many a moon - I just use low level stuff (I'm talking +2/+3 here) as I live in null and death is far from uncommon.

As a player it matters not an iota to me, but the meta/risk-reward seems whack when I take a step back and look at it. Mind you, I LIKE that null pilots almost never have stupid implants, keeps everyone honest and you know what you're getting into 99% of the time.


Actually I agree on the last point entirely and it is potentially a good thing as if you can fly successfully in null you already have the isk and skills to do so, increased SP rate isn't a necessity. This gives those using higher grade implants in higher sec areas a chance to 'catch up' if that's what concerns them as they are gaining SP faster whilst at lower risk. Bearing in mind that you only use a fraction of your total SP in any one hull and circumstance this means that a new player flying say...interceptors can probably mainly catch up to an older player in 6 months or so on key skills (in the skills used during an interceptor roam) and can certainly be at all level 4 skills for that hull.