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Why new people are critical to EvE

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Ehlana Sing
First Flame Syndicate
#41 - 2014-07-06 11:35:19 UTC
Mental note to self, never try to type on a forum from your phone .....Lol
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#42 - 2014-07-06 12:13:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
Its ok to say that You don't understand eve,
there's a lot of it goes completely over my head, and that's fine, this game is infamous for being hard as coffin nails.
however were i to make the assertion that, "i don't understand invention It doesn't make sense"
i would find myself embroiled in a 12 hour argument spewing flames, insults and pointed attacks around the place as well
.........well actually no as im not a complete child but i would be held accountable for the assertion.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#43 - 2014-07-06 12:49:42 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:
First, I will never understand why people would want people to leave their subscription game. Yet we hear the "maybe EvE isn't for you" or "go play WoW all the time". Do you understand how subscription games are funded?
…and just because the game subscription-funded doesn't mean that those answers are incorrect or inappropriate (beyond maybe some lack of diplomacy).

Those two particular comments are levelled against people who come into EVE expecting it to be something else, and when they figure out that they haven't done their research, they demand it be changed to match their expectations rather than adjust those expectations to match reality.

Yes, new players are important because they bring in subscriptions and ideas, but that doesn't translate into them being something that must be retained at all costs. Some simply aren't interested customers, and it'll take them a sub cycle or three to figure this out. Trying to replace the existing customer base by catering to the ever-changing, inconsistent, and very short-term whims of players who don't actually want to play the game to begin with is a sure-fire way to kill the game in one development cycle.

tl;dr – the kid gets a chance if s/he gives the game a chance rather than instantly demand it become like any of the myriad other games s/he'd rather want to play.


Amen Brother/Sister.

Every new player deserves a chance, but if that new player clearly has a very very wrong view on what EVE is, then it might be better to play another game or face the hard fact that EVE might not be the game for them.

I've seen people stay after some chats with the "bitter vets" while they were on the brink of throwing in the towel. It's the mindset of a new player that makes them stay or leave EVE.

If any new player comes to EVE and expects hand holding, complete safety or a flight simulator style game, they just didn't do their homework and it's for the best of both the new player and EVE itself that they are KINDLY shown that EVE isn't their type of game. The issue is that single word: Kindly. Loads of people have trouble with it.

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#44 - 2014-07-06 14:36:54 UTC
polly papercut wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:
First, I will never understand why people would want people to leave their subscription game.


I can guess that you never played Ultima Online, then. There were quite a few people who I would have been happy to see them just leave, rather than make the kind of effect on the game that they did.

Quote:

Yet we hear the "maybe EvE isn't for you" or "go play WoW all the time". Do you understand how subscription games are funded?


Not by the people who cry about everything.

Ultima Online pre T2A aka pre felucca I think was balanced better than EVE as far as good community is concerned. EVE offers very little in the way of giving reasons to be good.

I felt Every player in UO had a respectful roll from the tailor / smith to the red murderer to the blue bounty hunters.
And UO players understood the importance of every roll in the game.
In UO it was a good idea to befriend a tailor or smith and in EVE if you are a miner / production EVE players are like lol noob your playing the game wrong so let me gank you.

Lineage 2 and Darkfall are they same way I think UO and Darkfall were every bit of a harsh game as EVE, as stated in this thread CCP purposely tries to recruit the worst of the worst people. In no way was darkfall or UO ever diminished by having more god and bad guys nor was there a problem with the crafters. Like I said Crafters in UO got high ammounts of respect.

CCP does not nor should not change the game mechanics but there is no harm in targeting a larger audience of different play styles.


I bolded the key word here, because I keep seeing that come up.

EVE has every 'game mechanic' needed for someone to be a good guy. It has the 'trade' function that lets you give stuff away, and the 'give money' function that does the same thing. You can contract things to people all you like. You can sit in a station, station trade all day (never risking your ship/pod) and 'Bill Gates' all your profits away to new players.

Nothing is stopping you from being the next 'EVE University", taking in the downtrodden new players and teaching them the ropes.

Nothing is stopping you from building anything. Plenty of people build and never shoot anything in this game.

Nothing is stopping you from being the next Chribba, of whom none fear unless their name is 'Veldspaar".

The problem you types have is that no one is kissing your arse for being a 'good guy' type (which is why I bolded the word 'respect'). In this game, I'm a 'good guy'. I mostly kill npc bad guys, I don't steal , gank, spy or scam and I have helped new players learn how to survive being a isk making pve player in this lion's den of a pvp game. The difference is that I don't need 'recognition' for any of that, I'm playing the way i like while not passing judgement on other legitimate (non-EULA breaking) styles of play.

And that's what it comes down to, the irony that the same people likly to say "you don't like my play style" are the same people likely to be highly prejudiced against other people's legitimate play styles....
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#45 - 2014-07-06 14:42:26 UTC
^^the truth


And it is indeed arse

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Vince Mctavern
Anara Sol
#46 - 2014-07-06 14:44:56 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
While it's a little bit of an old article, this does a pretty good job of explaining how CCP feels about "attracting new people".

Interesting article, but all I got from it was 'we can't spell and have no idea how to use a spellchecker', and that they're so bad at fact checking they seem to think Hættuspil is a 'space combat game'. Shocked
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#47 - 2014-07-06 15:16:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Jenn aSide wrote:
polly papercut wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nexus Day wrote:
First, I will never understand why people would want people to leave their subscription game.


I can guess that you never played Ultima Online, then. There were quite a few people who I would have been happy to see them just leave, rather than make the kind of effect on the game that they did.

Quote:

Yet we hear the "maybe EvE isn't for you" or "go play WoW all the time". Do you understand how subscription games are funded?


Not by the people who cry about everything.

Ultima Online pre T2A aka pre felucca I think was balanced better than EVE as far as good community is concerned. EVE offers very little in the way of giving reasons to be good.

I felt Every player in UO had a respectful roll from the tailor / smith to the red murderer to the blue bounty hunters.
And UO players understood the importance of every roll in the game.
In UO it was a good idea to befriend a tailor or smith and in EVE if you are a miner / production EVE players are like lol noob your playing the game wrong so let me gank you.

Lineage 2 and Darkfall are they same way I think UO and Darkfall were every bit of a harsh game as EVE, as stated in this thread CCP purposely tries to recruit the worst of the worst people. In no way was darkfall or UO ever diminished by having more god and bad guys nor was there a problem with the crafters. Like I said Crafters in UO got high ammounts of respect.

CCP does not nor should not change the game mechanics but there is no harm in targeting a larger audience of different play styles.


I bolded the key word here, because I keep seeing that come up.

EVE has every 'game mechanic' needed for someone to be a good guy. It has the 'trade' function that lets you give stuff away, and the 'give money' function that does the same thing. You can contract things to people all you like. You can sit in a station, station trade all day (never risking your ship/pod) and 'Bill Gates' all your profits away to new players.

Nothing is stopping you from being the next 'EVE University", taking in the downtrodden new players and teaching them the ropes.

Nothing is stopping you from building anything. Plenty of people build and never shoot anything in this game.

Nothing is stopping you from being the next Chribba, of whom none fear unless their name is 'Veldspaar".

The problem you types have is that no one is kissing your arse for being a 'good guy' type (which is why I bolded the word 'respect'). In this game, I'm a 'good guy'. I mostly kill npc bad guys, I don't steal , gank, spy or scam and I have helped new players learn how to survive being a isk making pve player in this lion's den of a pvp game. The difference is that I don't need 'recognition' for any of that, I'm playing the way i like while not passing judgement on other legitimate (non-EULA breaking) styles of play.

And that's what it comes down to, the irony that the same people likly to say "you don't like my play style" are the same people likely to be highly prejudiced against other people's legitimate play styles....




Jenn gets it in one. +1

Oh, and if you think that the kind of people who ran around UO's overworld all day doing nothing but mine got any respect, then you and I were playing very different games. Those people were fodder, like a mob but with better loot drops.

"crafters" in UO is analogous to real idustrialists in EVE, not miners or freighters. The first gets respect. The second is basically destructible terrain.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#48 - 2014-07-06 15:34:11 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
I have removed some a lot of rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.

3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.

4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

12. Spamming is prohibited.

Spam is defined as the repetitive posting of the same topic or nonsensical post that has no substance and is often designed to annoy other forum users. This can include the words “first”, “go back to (insert other game name)” and other such posts that contribute no value to forum discussion. Spamming also includes the posting of ASCII art within a forum post.

22. Post constructively.

Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting.

26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.


Thread reopened.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#49 - 2014-07-06 18:40:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Riyria Twinpeaks
This was quite the massacre.

I also agree with Jenn aSide's post, although I think a way for the "good guys" to gain some glory from being good guys would be nice, as balanced counterpart for all the stories about heists and ganks and destruction.

I just don't have any idea how to do that without breaking things xD
On second thought.. maybe not even with breaking things..

That's a bit off-topic, though, I guess.
As I forgot to mention it before in my post replying to the OP:
I basically agree with the thread title. New players are important, and they can be a driving force for new ideas and stuff to happen.

But, as I did mention before, that doesn't mean that those new players who clearly want to play a different game (Edit: and who seek to change the game in ways that would reduce the possibility of new ideas and new stories to develop) are critical to EvE.

That's my opinion.
Chewytowel Haklar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2014-07-06 18:41:56 UTC
Skills take forever to train just so I can try new things out which I might find I hate despite prior research.
Christus Estnatus Hemanseh
Doomheim
#51 - 2014-07-06 19:03:56 UTC
I'd swear I posted on a similar thread earlier today, but can't find it anywhere...

Anyway, there I go with my point again.

Getting new players is important, of course, but I think that EVE is an old game, has been around for long and hasn't seen any new content since Apochrypha, and thus it is just running out of people interested to try it with its current set of features.

New features are important because their novelty is a challenge both to new players and old. When wormholes were introduced, nobody knew how to use them, for what, or how. There were no "wormholers", no specialists. A new player could seriously aspire to become a wormholer and find an empty niche, rather than try and become the 2,000th trader in Jita.

New content levels the field for players looking for for a specialization, be them veterans with one or more specializations, or new players with none.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#52 - 2014-07-06 19:11:53 UTC
In a normal business model, a corporation does cater to newer players to get them to join, and remain in the game.
However, CCP is far from a normal corporation.

Very few, if any, other gaming company allows such a small subset of the players demographics to have so much input on game design.

There is a reason that the PCU is down, as well as marketing not trumpeting 11 years of continuous growth, and CCP refusing to release the CSM election data that they have in that past that allowed for subscription calculations.

And this will continue.
Crius approaches.
Xavier Liche
ACME Mineral and Gas
#53 - 2014-07-06 19:12:32 UTC
New people in EVE are like cash.

They flow in, get spent and move on, new "cash" flows in to replace them.

If we ever stopped "spending" our new players on "cheap thrills" this game might really take off, because at it's core it is not an amusement park ride like most other games.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#54 - 2014-07-06 19:21:00 UTC
Christus Estnatus Hemanseh wrote:
New features are important because their novelty is a challenge both to new players and old. When wormholes were introduced, nobody knew how to use them, for what, or how. There were no "wormholers", no specialists. A new player could seriously aspire to become a wormholer and find an empty niche, rather than try and become the 2,000th trader in Jita.

New content levels the field for players looking for for a specialization, be them veterans with one or more specializations, or new players with none.

Super-titans, will be a rare and power specialization?
Xavier Liche wrote:
New people in EVE are like cash.

They flow in, get spent and move on, new "cash" flows in to replace them.

If we ever stopped "spending" our new players on "cheap thrills" this game might really take off, because at it's core it is not an amusement park ride like most other games.

Then you'd be blobbers, like us...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#55 - 2014-07-06 21:10:38 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
In a normal business model, a corporation does cater to newer players to get them to join, and remain in the game.
However, CCP is far from a normal corporation.


So you think 'normal' corporate behavior is the answer? Occupy Wall Street would like to have a word with you when they aren't busy getting high in a drum circle.

That CCP doesn't act like a normal money grubbing "give the people whatever drek they think they want and lets rake in the dough from stupid people" is exactly WHY we like them and the game they maintain. If CCP were a 'normal' corporation our ships would be mounts and New Eden would be an Azeroth knock off.

Quote:

Very few, if any, other gaming company allows such a small subset of the players demographics to have so much input on game design.


What small subset. Or are you still clinging to the idea that 'people like you' are in the majority. If that were true, why wouldn't they complain about it like you do?

Quote:

There is a reason that the PCU is down, as well as marketing not trumpeting 11 years of continuous growth, and CCP refusing to release the CSM election data that they have in that past that allowed for subscription calculations.

And this will continue.
Crius approaches.


Hmm, so you celebrate these things that have gone on for less than a year, but cannot bring yourself to admit that for 10+ years of growth it was the people you obvioulsy don't like (like goons) who drove the game upwards.

The real problem is that CCP did actually listen to some folks like you, they watered down the game inch by inch and now the kinds of people who drove EVE's growth are less likely to find the game enjoyable, while to 'peaceful and cooperative' types that never stick with any game for long are catered to.

Congrats, you're getting BOTH THING you've always wanted, EVE is safer AND dying.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2014-07-06 21:21:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Very few, if any, other gaming company allows such a small subset of the players demographics to have so much input on game design.


Bungie. Also, that small subset you're talking about, they're called "EVE's intended audience".

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#57 - 2014-07-06 21:22:34 UTC
New people or every moron that lacks ability of reading comprehension but has massively developed sense of whine and entitlement?

And to be honest vets can manage to keep subs high enough for CCP to have at least few years of development more. Nobody makes any favors to anybody by subscribing to Eve and nobody owes anybody jack sh!t. Once you got accustomed with Malcanis's law (grammar iz hard, forgive me) all you really can do is shoot every newbie you see. Bleeding hearts are good for Red Cross.

Invalid signature format
KayleInara
Perkone
Caldari State
#58 - 2014-07-06 21:55:18 UTC
I'm fairly certain that I made three posts in this thread that were relevant tot he topic of new players entering the game and how they are treated, and my words were quite civil. I even refrained from insulting anyone.

Yet, all of those posts are now gone. There is no point in participating in any sort of communication on this forum if that participation is just going to get wiped out on a whim. Oh well, my experiment in venturing into the 'official' forums has been a brief one.

On topic - new players are important to this game. Groups should embrace their new players and nurture them, and some percentage will stay.
Tixx Enaka
I Like Raccoons
#59 - 2014-07-06 22:07:03 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
First, I will never understand why people would want people to leave their subscription game. Yet we hear the "maybe EvE isn't for you" or "go play WoW all the time". Do you understand how subscription games are funded?

That is reason number one new players are important to EvE, they pay cash. There are exceptions, but for the most part new players pay for subs. They also pay for plex as wealth accumulation in this game can be very slow at the start. There are veterans who put their money where their mouth is, but for new players it is almost a given.

Reason number two is they buy off the market. They do not come into being in a guild that produces all that their members need. Instead they grind this and that and go to the market to buy the next step in their ascension. There is a reason why items that a bitter vet wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole sell on the market.

But more importantly, imo, new players bring new ideas. In a game that bills itself as a sandbox with extremely limited content provided by the developers new ideas are the only thing that keep this game fresh. Another Hulkageddon or permit scam or insidious corporate takeover or blue donut will not keep people interested for very long. The next big thing will not come from someone with 15000 posts defending things the way they are. It will most likely come from someone just joining the game that says "what if?"

tl:dr give the kid a chance.


I'm relatively new and I say NO to the tl;dr. Why? Because 99% of new players that join have no clue what EvE is and immediately start saying "change this! That's too hard! Let me buy skill points!".

Basically they walk into Burger King and complain there are no Big Mac's. Whiny, entitled, useless kids that want everything their way at the expense of others.

Why don't they just leave and play the myriad of other games that cater to that mentality. Oh right. They get bored.

tl;dr. Stop trying to ruin a game I like. Stop trying to make everything the same. Go play WoW.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#60 - 2014-07-06 22:19:11 UTC
Tixx Enaka wrote:
Because 99% of new players that join have no clue what EvE is and immediately start saying "change this! That's too hard! Let me buy skill points!".


99%?

Wow! With a bold statement like that, I'm sure you have a link to refer us to as corroboration, right?

Mr Epeen Cool