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[Crius] Manufacturing and general UI feedback

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CCP RubberBAND
CCP Engineering Corp
#241 - 2014-07-04 10:49:14 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
There needs to be a bpo/bpc filtering system when looking at blueprints tab in the industry UI. Especially when looking in List view its hard to tell them apart.

The UI doesnt update nearly as much as it needs to, even when you jump it doesnt update to the station you are in and the blueprint list set to "current station" shows you the blueprints in the station you were last in.

Sure you have made tons of updates to make this fancy good looking UI, it saves a ton of clicks for sure but it doesnt give me any new information. I want a UI that can at least help me a tiny bit to know which option is better for me.

I want a estimated profit by comparing your average unit price of input and output minus production fees, its all there and would be super easy for you to implement.

This should not only be there for manufacturing but the super complex invention system could really need some simple built in math for the resulting blueprint.


These points get raised fairly often so let me address them specifically.


  • We will add a filter to allow you to view only BPO's or BPC's if you so with
  • Related to BPC stacks, we have an iteration planned that would stack BPC's in the view into a single entry, then allow you to do some cool stuff with it, unfortunately not going to make it for Crius
  • There are numerous open defects regarding how often the UI refreshes. We have yet to address those, but will do so before release.
  • We made a conscious decision about obfuscating the estimated price of the input and output because we don't want to discourage people doing small scale Industry (if you mine minerals yourself or with friends, you might consider them "free"), and medium to large scale Industrialists are probably calculating their costs outside in dedicated spreadsheet, we can't reasonably compete with
  • After Crius both Reverse Engineering and Invention are next on our list for some significant love, this includes UI and gameplay


Kenneth Feld wrote:


Can you give us an idea on the feature set?

Will it be like POCO tax, where we can control tax by station owner settings?


Also as a general point. We probably won't get the settings window for Outposts in before the weekend, but the intention is for it to be closer to the POCO settings window you know and love.

Feel free to poke me on: Twitter
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#242 - 2014-07-04 11:05:44 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
  • We made a conscious decision about obfuscating the estimated price of the input and output because we don't want to discourage people doing small scale Industry (if you mine minerals yourself or with friends, you might consider them "free"), and medium to large scale Industrialists are probably calculating their costs outside in dedicated spreadsheet, we can't reasonably compete with

    • You want to specifically hide opportunity cost so that people continue doing unprofitable industry? That seems... a little crazy to me.
    Conjaq
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #243 - 2014-07-04 11:08:53 UTC
    Masao Kurata wrote:
    CCP RubberBAND wrote:
  • We made a conscious decision about obfuscating the estimated price of the input and output because we don't want to discourage people doing small scale Industry (if you mine minerals yourself or with friends, you might consider them "free"), and medium to large scale Industrialists are probably calculating their costs outside in dedicated spreadsheet, we can't reasonably compete with

    • You want to specifically hide opportunity cost so that people continue doing unprofitable industry? That seems... a little crazy to me.



    Ditto.

    On the contrary, it should list whether making this or that will be profitable, or not.

    Could in the end make it more worthwhile to produce...
    Firvain
    Wildly Inappropriate
    Wildly Inappropriate.
    #244 - 2014-07-04 11:12:28 UTC
    Masao Kurata wrote:
    CCP RubberBAND wrote:
  • We made a conscious decision about obfuscating the estimated price of the input and output because we don't want to discourage people doing small scale Industry (if you mine minerals yourself or with friends, you might consider them "free"), and medium to large scale Industrialists are probably calculating their costs outside in dedicated spreadsheet, we can't reasonably compete with

    • You want to specifically hide opportunity cost so that people continue doing unprofitable industry? That seems... a little crazy to me.


    How does the game know where you got your materials from? I sometimes source minerals from other places where tehy are cheaper then jita. So having the ui show me jita cost for those materials and then telling me im losing money is a lie
    Rivr Luzade
    Coreli Corporation
    Pandemic Legion
    #245 - 2014-07-04 11:41:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
    Firvain wrote:
    Masao Kurata wrote:
    CCP RubberBAND wrote:
  • We made a conscious decision about obfuscating the estimated price of the input and output because we don't want to discourage people doing small scale Industry (if you mine minerals yourself or with friends, you might consider them "free"), and medium to large scale Industrialists are probably calculating their costs outside in dedicated spreadsheet, we can't reasonably compete with

    • You want to specifically hide opportunity cost so that people continue doing unprofitable industry? That seems... a little crazy to me.


    How does the game know where you got your materials from? I sometimes source minerals from other places where tehy are cheaper then jita. So having the ui show me jita cost for those materials and then telling me im losing money is a lie


    It does not matter where you get them from, such a number would be an estimation, an indication. I do the same with my industry: I have my Jita reference and if something is profitable with its prices, I check further with my personal prices. Knowing the reference (regional average from all 5 trade hub regions, for instance), gives you an indication in the industry window if something is even remotely worth putting effort into. It is nothing that needs to compete with dedicated tools, it just needs to give you an indication about the viability. And this is especially important for beginners to avoid frustration about losing money, but also for more involved people to get more important information at a glance in-game, which they then can compare and refine in their own tools.

    As an example: I get my minerals for well below all the hub prices. However, if I cannot make money with hub priced minerals or component materials, I would lose money with my cheap minerals and components. This is very undesirable. If the Industry window can indicate that without the need for third party tools, it would help a lot.

    This stance from CCP and the CSM is plain daft, and this functionality was replaced with useless space and useless information. Congratulations.

    Does CCP even communicate inside the teams? Take this for instance:

    Principles of Industry in EVE Online wrote:
    Firstly, industry should be easy to understand. Once you've decided what you want to do, it should be obvious how you do it. The UI should be easier for you to read and easier for you to use, and it should be simple for you to understand the consequences of your actions.


    How does "not displaying [give indications for] the outcome price" of your effort coincide with making things more accessible, easier to understand? Roll

    CCP RubberBAND wrote:

    • After Crius both Reverse Engineering and Invention are next on our list for some significant love, this includes UI and gameplay


    Your love for meaningless destruction; you should specify that. Roll Looking at the changes with the general industry, I can only say that I am at all convinced you are capable of changing invention and reverse engineering for the better. Instead, you are only after more effort for those who create and less effort who destroy.

    UI Improvement Collective

    My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
    Sgt Ocker
    What Corp is it
    #246 - 2014-07-04 12:04:52 UTC
    Firvain wrote:
    Masao Kurata wrote:
    CCP RubberBAND wrote:
  • We made a conscious decision about obfuscating the estimated price of the input and output because we don't want to discourage people doing small scale Industry (if you mine minerals yourself or with friends, you might consider them "free"), and medium to large scale Industrialists are probably calculating their costs outside in dedicated spreadsheet, we can't reasonably compete with

    • You want to specifically hide opportunity cost so that people continue doing unprofitable industry? That seems... a little crazy to me.


    How does the game know where you got your materials from? I sometimes source minerals from other places where tehy are cheaper then jita. So having the ui show me jita cost for those materials and then telling me im losing money is a lie

    Seriously??

    I hope you are not on the economic or industrial teams for your alliance, they will go broke very quickly.

    Try thinking outside the box. UI gives you Jita price, you say you can source materials cheaper - UI is giving you insight as to how much others can build the same thing for therefore how much profit you could make.
    With no information from the UI (which is what we will have) you have no idea how much others are able to build that same item for (without checking Jita prices), therefore no idea whether you can make a profit..
    Unless you are under the impression you are the only one who can source cheaper than Jita?

    My opinions are mine.

      If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

    It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
    Noriko Mai
    #247 - 2014-07-04 14:04:29 UTC
    Masao Kurata wrote:
    CCP RubberBAND wrote:
  • We made a conscious decision about obfuscating the estimated price of the input and output because we don't want to discourage people doing small scale Industry (if you mine minerals yourself or with friends, you might consider them "free"), and medium to large scale Industrialists are probably calculating their costs outside in dedicated spreadsheet, we can't reasonably compete with

    • You want to specifically hide opportunity cost so that people continue doing unprofitable industry? That seems... a little crazy to me.

    Yeah. Ey, CCP make autoselect most profitable Blueprint with option to autobuy the BP and everything required.

    The information they would provide would always be false. So why even bother? Doing your research is part of what makes you a successful industrialist.

    "Meh.." - Albert Einstein
    Rivr Luzade
    Coreli Corporation
    Pandemic Legion
    #248 - 2014-07-04 14:07:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
    Can CCP eventually fix the missing/lacking refresh of the industry window? It is immensely annoying that I have to close the window after changing the input hangars for invention.

    Another thing I just noticed in the same process: The Modules for Module invention are sorted by letters, not by Meta Level. This makes the process highly unintuitive, when you have 1 mod with 54% chance, the next with 60%, then down to 56% and up to 72%. Sorting by Meta Level is the better choice here.

    @Noriko Mai

    My dear, nothing is false if it is clearly declared as an estimation a/o indication...

    UI Improvement Collective

    My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
    Z1gy
    Vindicator Corporation
    #249 - 2014-07-04 14:20:49 UTC
    cannot install job due to this error

    Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
    The job cost has changed
    The facility tax rates have changed
    Error.MISMATCH_COST (19, 13)
    Error.MISMATCH_TAX (2, 1)

    help would be appreciated
    Max Kolonko
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #250 - 2014-07-04 15:33:34 UTC
    CCP RubberBAND wrote:

  • We made a conscious decision about obfuscating the estimated price of the input and output because we don't want to discourage people doing small scale Industry (if you mine minerals yourself or with friends, you might consider them "free"), and medium to large scale Industrialists are probably calculating their costs outside in dedicated spreadsheet, we can't reasonably compete with


    • Pls dont :( this is actually really needed to encorage those that think that minerals are free to rethink their position. Maybe they will finally start selling those minerals on the market instead of building underpriced ships. They will be able to make concious decision about whetever they want just to build or maybe sell minerals for bigger profit and less hassle

    Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
    CCP Claymore
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #251 - 2014-07-04 15:37:43 UTC
    Z1gy wrote:
    cannot install job due to this error

    Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
    The job cost has changed
    The facility tax rates have changed
    Error.MISMATCH_COST (19, 13)
    Error.MISMATCH_TAX (2, 1)

    help would be appreciated


    Can you provide more information?
    What system were you in? If it was a FW system then this is a known issue and will be fixed on the next build to hit sisi.

    Please submit a bug report and include my name in the title.

    Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters
    CCP RubberBAND
    CCP Engineering Corp
    #252 - 2014-07-04 15:58:52 UTC
    Note also that we have updated the known issues thread. So it should be up to date as of today.

    Feel free to poke me on: Twitter
    Vodka Tequila
    SniggWaffe
    WAFFLES.
    #253 - 2014-07-04 19:40:45 UTC
    Hello.
    I looked through all threads on test server feedback, but couldn't find the answer to the following question:
    How often the price of the job will change? Will the change (increase) happen after each installed job or for instance at each downtime?
    Dareth Astrar
    Astrar Logistics and Engineering
    #254 - 2014-07-05 08:08:11 UTC
    Conjaq wrote:
    Masao Kurata wrote:

    You want to specifically hide opportunity cost so that people continue doing unprofitable industry? That seems... a little crazy to me.


    Ditto.

    On the contrary, it should list whether making this or that will be profitable, or not.

    Could in the end make it more worthwhile to produce...


    Exactly, and correct. Information being provided by the UI should at least be relatively accurate based on their background current highest mineral prices in Jita, if not any purchases in the users/corps transactions. This is supposed to be informative, then it should be accurate or else it's space consuming useless information.

    Firvain wrote:
    How does the game know where you got your materials from? I sometimes source minerals from other places where tehy are cheaper then jita. So having the ui show me jita cost for those materials and then telling me im losing money is a lie


    That doesn't matter!

    If at the end of the day the people can't be informed to see that any manufacturing efforts they are undertaking are loosing them money compared to simply moving the minerals and selling to the highest available buy orders in reasonable range or their current region, we will never escape this "minerals are free mentality".

    I'm sure, after all, you'd all be happy to consider your time spent working everyday for your employer as free, I'm sure your employer would thank you for your permanent voluntary efforts and the increase in his profits. :)

    Max Kolonko wrote:
    Pls dont :( this is actually really needed to encorage those that think that minerals are free to rethink their position. Maybe they will finally start selling those minerals on the market instead of building underpriced ships. They will be able to make concious decision about whetever they want just to build or maybe sell minerals for bigger profit and less hassle


    Preaching to the converted here Max, but in the 11 years of industrial effort in this game I can honestly say there are still arguments about this point. Even though the customers pay for this game, they have to earn their money they still seem to consider their time worth nothing in isk value which still baffles me.

    CCP RubberBAND wrote:

    * We will add a filter to allow you to view only BPO's or BPC's if you so with
    * Related to BPC stacks, we have an iteration planned that would stack BPC's in the view into a single entry, then allow you to do some cool stuff with it, unfortunately not going to make it for Crius
    * There are numerous open defects regarding how often the UI refreshes. We have yet to address those, but will do so before release.
    * We made a conscious decision about obfuscating the estimated price of the input and output because we don't want to discourage people doing small scale Industry (if you mine minerals yourself or with friends, you might consider them "free"), and medium to large scale Industrialists are probably calculating their costs outside in dedicated spreadsheet, we can't reasonably compete with
    * After Crius both Reverse Engineering and Invention are next on our list for some significant love, this includes UI and gameplay


    Please can we also ensure that there is an option for Containers as well in that filtering, so if we are deliberately trying to hide some blueprints from the industrial interface, we still can.

    I really do hope you mean it on the stacks. I would hate to see history repeat itself and we get a half implemented change, and then the team diverted to other priorities. Fingers crossed, this would be one of the best changes the industrial interface will ever have seen.

    I honestly don't understand the conscious decision to obfuscate this information. It makes no sense to me to not inform your software's user in the best possible manner. Could you please discuss the reasoning?
    Masao Kurata
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #255 - 2014-07-05 12:49:14 UTC
    I just noticed that meta inputs to invention are ordered alphabetically, please order them by meta level as that's what matters to the process.
    Kenneth Feld
    Habitual Euthanasia
    Pandemic Legion
    #256 - 2014-07-05 21:12:46 UTC
    CCP RubberBAND wrote:

    Kenneth Feld wrote:


    Can you give us an idea on the feature set?

    Will it be like POCO tax, where we can control tax by station owner settings?


    Also as a general point. We probably won't get the settings window for Outposts in before the weekend, but the intention is for it to be closer to the POCO settings window you know and love.




    Can we get an idea on what it is going to apply to?

    Reprocessing
    Industrial lines
    Laboratory services
    Clones
    Repairs

    That would freaking awesome if it applied to all current services as well as the industry stuff
    KanashiiKami
    #257 - 2014-07-06 06:19:06 UTC  |  Edited by: KanashiiKami
    Firvain wrote:
    Rivr Luzade wrote:
    The Ironfist wrote:
    Blah


    You name it yourself: The Minmatar Outpost provides you with ridiculously cheap minerals, and on top of that you still want an even more ridiculous reduction on manufacturing. Are you out of your mind? Roll

    And you don't need to import nearly as many items as you want to make the world believe. You have tons of moon minerals locally in your Sov 00, let alone ice and normal minerals. The only thing you absolutely need to import are moon minerals and their products that don't grow on your moons. That is all there is to import. And if you followed that lead (use your local resources, actually mine in your space instead of using outsourced Made in Bangladesh minerals, you have a very big edge over the importers.

    Get your act together and start living in your space and not just cherry-pick what like to do. That is not what Sovereignty is supposed to be. All you 00 dwellers want to make it a holiday resort with massive benefits, instead of a home turf with all sorts of labor, activities and resulting benefits. This is a disgusting attitude. If people would actually do that, there would be a slight chance of actually giving the outpost a better than it currently is bonus to ME; however, as people are only after exploiting the system, giving the outpost more than 5% is absolutely wrong.



    The problem with 0.0 is there arent enough miners around to supply all the builders with lowends. I personally use 5 billion trit every week, thats a fuckton of miners to supply just my needs, let alone the other guys who are building stuff in deklein.

    The problem with aquiring minerals in 0.0 is that you have a lot smaller pool of miners to grab from compared to empire. even if miner density was the same in 0.0 as its in empire i still only have acces to 1 or 2 regions realisticly to buy minerals in. Compared in empire where I can just buy them in every region because shipping is retardly safe in there.


    he is right. miners will always be miners.

    even with the current buff in mining ship resilience. the real miners are all still in HS. CCP have no mechanism in place to promote more mining in null

    maybe capital ship INDY need to be nerfed so that they are made sooooo slowly, then null mining will catch up. by then, skirmishes will move on more to sub caps, and the demand grows again ...

    WUT ???
    Nike Andedare
    Diamond Command
    #258 - 2014-07-06 07:33:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Nike Andedare
    [BUG] Industry UI ---> Blueprints Tab ---> Corporate Inventory Location Names

    EDITED: Nevermind, it's on the known issues.... Oops
    Rivr Luzade
    Coreli Corporation
    Pandemic Legion
    #259 - 2014-07-06 07:44:36 UTC
    KanashiiKami wrote:
    Firvain wrote:
    Rivr Luzade wrote:
    The Ironfist wrote:
    Blah


    You name it yourself: The Minmatar Outpost provides you with ridiculously cheap minerals, and on top of that you still want an even more ridiculous reduction on manufacturing. Are you out of your mind? Roll

    And you don't need to import nearly as many items as you want to make the world believe. You have tons of moon minerals locally in your Sov 00, let alone ice and normal minerals. The only thing you absolutely need to import are moon minerals and their products that don't grow on your moons. That is all there is to import. And if you followed that lead (use your local resources, actually mine in your space instead of using outsourced Made in Bangladesh minerals, you have a very big edge over the importers.

    Get your act together and start living in your space and not just cherry-pick what like to do. That is not what Sovereignty is supposed to be. All you 00 dwellers want to make it a holiday resort with massive benefits, instead of a home turf with all sorts of labor, activities and resulting benefits. This is a disgusting attitude. If people would actually do that, there would be a slight chance of actually giving the outpost a better than it currently is bonus to ME; however, as people are only after exploiting the system, giving the outpost more than 5% is absolutely wrong.



    The problem with 0.0 is there arent enough miners around to supply all the builders with lowends. I personally use 5 billion trit every week, thats a fuckton of miners to supply just my needs, let alone the other guys who are building stuff in deklein.

    The problem with aquiring minerals in 0.0 is that you have a lot smaller pool of miners to grab from compared to empire. even if miner density was the same in 0.0 as its in empire i still only have acces to 1 or 2 regions realisticly to buy minerals in. Compared in empire where I can just buy them in every region because shipping is retardly safe in there.


    he is right. miners will always be miners.

    even with the current buff in mining ship resilience. the real miners are all still in HS. CCP have no mechanism in place to promote more mining in null

    maybe capital ship INDY need to be nerfed so that they are made sooooo slowly, then null mining will catch up. by then, skirmishes will move on more to sub caps, and the demand grows again ...


    Where is he right? If you make miners come to you, by guaranteeing them your protection as PVPers, they will have a space to mine, which is as safe as High sec, or even saver. Roll But the horror, PVPers must give up some of their convenience and actually do something to protect those who are providing them with their goods. If you can guarantee at least a reasonable level of protection, maybe even only for their bigger mining ops, or to be ready to respond when they mine under the prying eyes of a cloaky person in local, you could certainly bring a lot more miners into 00 sec. Not to mention that there are already big numbers of miners. You, as sov holders, just need to organize them better. Also something that requires people to do something.

    There is a lot of people who want to go to 00 sec and mine, but the current attitude of the PVPers in this game that they should get their stuff for free from "risk-averse" High sec miners is what appalls those willing to set out.

    UI Improvement Collective

    My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
    Laendra
    Universalis Imperium
    Goonswarm Federation
    #260 - 2014-07-06 15:23:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Laendra
    Can we get the materials listing in the blueprints and industry UI to be able to sort the same way, by default? Right now ShowInfo is sorting by TYPEID, and I have NO IDEA what the UI is sorting by. Regardless neither one is something that we can sort our inventory by. Please switch it up to have both the UI and the ShowInfo sort by TypeName

    I hate this most of all...