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The Argument is Over
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Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#81 - 2011-12-06 21:02:59 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
It's worth mentioning here as well that CCP Diagoras has kindly provided final blow statistics for a selection of ship types:



Battleship:
Megathron 248,100
Armageddon 205,269
Abaddon 198,930
Tempest 172,610
Raven 155,977



YEAH BABY! WHO IS STILL KING? Twisted
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#82 - 2011-12-06 22:31:01 UTC
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:
1. Change armour tanking penalties and fitting reqs.

2. Continue to fix hybrids.

3. Minmatar can not have the fastest ships with its current system. So either nerf the weapon system or slow down the ships.

4. Possibly look at fitting requirements for Minmatar (maybe not be needed).



... I like this.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#83 - 2011-12-06 22:34:05 UTC
ElCholo wrote:
Emily Poast wrote:


Projectiles are so high up because EVERYONE USES THEM. Its a simple fact like that that proves they are imbalanced.



You keep trying to convince people that because something is flown the most means that it is imballanced. This just isn't the case. It means that it is the most popular.

If you can find me some statistics that show the Cane is the least killed (and others on that list) then that would potentially lead to them being overpowered and not just overflown. However, I'm willing to bet that Canes are most flown and most lost. This just shows that they are popular and easy to fly, not overpowered.

Remember, "everyone uses them" =/= overpowered. However, everyone uses them and hardly anyone dies in them would mean that they are overpowered.

Posting that anyone who disagrees with you is blah blah blah, etc... is just another spin tactic to brow beat others into supporting you regardless of facts.



Actually, in most MMO's, in particular ones with heavy PVP, "Most Popular" tends to equal the one players can squeeze the most performance / dps / kills out of.

That being said, I dont think ANY changes should happen for the next couple of months, while players get a feel for the best fits for the new changes, and we see how things filter out for stats in pvp across that time period. If it still shows up as over 50% hurricanes and other minnie ships in blobs at all times, then we will know its now time to re assess the numbers again. ;)

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#84 - 2011-12-06 23:06:46 UTC
Cameron Freerunner wrote:
Subcap pvp is minnie. Get over it already.



*chuckle* So in pvp there is basically 2 categories... subcap and cap. And out of 4 races, according to you, ONE race owns all of the larger category. You dont find this problematic?

While I do not fully agree with your post, I felt I had to point that out. :)

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Lili Lu
#85 - 2011-12-06 23:24:51 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
It's worth mentioning here as well that CCP Diagoras has kindly provided final blow statistics for a selection of ship types:

Frigates:
Rifter 186,502
Dramiel 120,305
Punisher 44,621
Merlin 37,372
Incursus 35,735

Cruisers:
Cynabal 133,399
Rupture 118,406
Thorax 90,771
Vexor 81,527
Caracal 66,385

HAC:
Vagabond 389,449
Zealot 253,838
Ishtar 152,419
Cerberus 136,244
Muninn 83,884

Battlecruiser:
Drake 732,236
Hurricane 629,933
Harbinger 236,607
Myrmidon 116,046
Brutix 85,931

Battleship:
Megathron 248,100
Armageddon 205,269
Abaddon 198,930
Tempest 172,610
Raven 155,977

Interceptor:
Taranis 110,616
Crow 78,830
Crusader 52,683
Claw 22,226
Malediction 20,363

Carrier:
Thanatos 48,726
Chimera 19,358
Archon 18,985
Nidhoggur 11,592

Strategic Cruiser:
Tengu 104,917
Loki 64,095
Legion 46,875
Proteus 40,945


This is data on final blows. Over what time period? What situations? If we are to take these data dumps as evidence for nerfing a whole race of ships or weapon system we'd end up with some of the following (against which I'm sure Caldari complainers would weap mightilly). The Drake is still #1, nerf Drake not Hurricane, or nerf both. Buff Muninn and nerf Cerb. Nerf Crow and buff Claw and Stilletto. Oh and of course the best one, nerf Tengu.

If we are to read these stats as a recipe for nerfs, then nerf Megathron, Thanatos, Taranis. But isn't it Gallente moaning about being on the bottom?

Alternately, everyone seems concerned that diminishing the recent TE/TC falloff buff will also hit blasters. However, the falloff ranges have become somewhat out of whack. A falloff reduction for these mods will hit ac more harshly than balsters. As for the speed situation with blaster boats and ac boats, would it not make more sense to boost straight line speed for gallente but keep minmatar as most agile. Blasters just got a tracking buff. Giving blaster boats more agility in addition would imperil any ac boat ability to gain range back.

These stats need to be refined and explained more. Also the Dramiel just got nerfed. WIll it slide down the list? Sorry but the OP is premature to say that argument is over and all the evidence is in. The only decent suggestion I've seen in this thread is to drop the 10% falloff buffs down to 5%. This btw should be done for Caldari missile and hybrid ships as well, some of which even get double 10% range bonuses.
Lili Lu
#86 - 2011-12-06 23:26:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
edited out due to bbcode idiocy oh and for "we were ganked" further idiocy
Lili Lu
#87 - 2011-12-06 23:27:07 UTC
******* bbc code bullshit. Roll
Lili Lu
#88 - 2011-12-06 23:28:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
and again
Lili Lu
#89 - 2011-12-06 23:31:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
and again. PLEASE FIX THIS FORUM CCP
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#90 - 2011-12-06 23:32:29 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:

This is data on final blows. Over what time period? What situations? If we are to take these data dumps as evidence for nerfing a whole race of ships or weapon system we'd end up with some of the following (against which I'm sure Caldari complainers would weap mightilly). The Drake is still #1, nerf Drake not Hurricane, or nerf both. Buff Muninn and nerf Cerb. Nerf Crow and buff Claw and Stilletto. Oh and of course the best one, nerf Tengu.

If we are to read these stats as a recipe for nerfs, then nerf Megathron, Thanatos, Taranis. But isn't it Gallente moaning about being on the bottom?


lol. That's pretty stupid. (Yes, I know that was your point)

Quote:

Alternately, everyone seems concerned that diminishing the recent TE/TC falloff buff will also hit blasters. However, the falloff ranges have become somewhat out of whack. A falloff reduction for these mods will hit ac more harshly than balsters. As for the speed situation with blaster boats and ac boats, would it not make more sense to boost straight line speed for gallente but keep minmatar as most agile. Blasters just got a tracking buff. Giving blaster boats more agility in addition would imperil any ac boat ability to gain range back.

These stats need to be refined and explained more. Also the Dramiel just got nerfed. WIll it slide down the list? Sorry but the OP is premature to say that argument is over and all the evidence is in. The only decent suggestion I've seen in this thread is to drop the 10% falloff buffs down to 5%. This btw should be done for Caldari missile and hybrid ships as well, some of which even get double 10% range bonuses.


The problem here is that there was just recently a largish change to the game which all but invalidates all the historic data that's been collected about the previous meta game. I do want to point out that the TE changes would hit blasters a lot harder than you think they would.

Think of it like this - blasters have a window of about 500m where they're "Great". Say TEs increase that by 2000m. That's not a 30% change - its a 400% change. OTOH, if Projectiles are "great" for 15000m and adding TEs makes it 20000m, that's a 25% nerf. I guess you could argue that Hybrid ships wouldn't be affected if we weren't shield tanking them, but I'm just going to /lol at that.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Lili Lu
#91 - 2011-12-06 23:33:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
******* bloody hell with this new forum. never had these problems on the old forums. I give up. Go ahead convince CCP to nerf Minmatar back into the stone age. Roll

edit- Lol, what so you can read my post? All it shows me is "there was a problem with parsing this bbccode crap.

Ok, so what is not making sense about my statment on nerfs, that if this data is being used for people to promote nerfs on minmatar and ac but not the mega sitting at number 1. It is not receiving similar calls for nerf. Why not?

So you think the recent massive buff to falloff on tracking mods was not overdone? As to rest of your response I"m sorry but usually you understand the argument and make sense in your reply. I never said anything about not shield tanking gallente ships so I don't know where you went on that.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#92 - 2011-12-06 23:41:52 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
edit- Lol, what so you can read my post? All it shows me is "there was a problem with parsing this bbccode crap.


I clicked the quote button.

Quote:

Ok, so what is not making sense about my statment on nerfs, that if this data is being used for people to promote nerfs on minmatar and ac but not the mega sitting at number 1. It is not receiving similar calls for nerf. Why not?


I don't disagree with you at all. This is one of the classic problems with large scale data analysis. More accurately - this is a problem with looking at 5 numbers on a spreadsheet and not considering what they really mean. This particular thing is dangerously close to my RL job.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Lili Lu
#93 - 2011-12-06 23:48:04 UTC
Ok, sorry Liang I think this BBCode frustration made me misread your response. I think I'll just go and play the game and get off these ****** up forums. Seriously they need to fix this ****** new forum. It's enough to make someone want to blow up spaceships.P
Noisrevbus
#94 - 2011-12-06 23:50:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
Simply hurling (fleet-fight trend tendency-) statistics around was a poor argument when people complained about HML.

It remains a poor argument when complaining about Projectiles.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2011-12-07 01:29:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Maroxus wrote:
Roosterton wrote:
Goose99 wrote:


harby gets 98k ehp, just remove guns, fit a rack of 1600 plates and a head full of Slaves.


No, it gets 98k EHP with no slaves and 531 DPS.

[Harbinger, 100K EHP "Beam" Harbinger]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Tracking Computer II
Small Capacitor Booster II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive

Quad Light Beam Laser II
Quad Light Beam Laser II
Quad Light Beam Laser II
Quad Light Beam Laser II
Quad Light Beam Laser II
Quad Light Beam Laser II
Quad Light Beam Laser II
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x5



I was wondering WTF you were talking about, but you're including drone dps. Its turret dps with Imperial navy multi is 372 which is less then a drake with 3x bcu and faction scourge (414). You're wrong on :

Roosterton wrote:
A Harby can get 98k EHP and superior DPS to a Drake, with turrets.


Its 386 with focused pulse and you won't have the powergrid to put a propulsion mod + that EHP. Part of the Harb's dps is medium drones and they can die. Especially in lowsec.

The strength of the drake is its balance. Strong buffer, great range, decent dps, easy to use, few weaknesses, and its affordable cost. All gained in a single hml setup.


I don't see why drones shouldn't be included, as it's one of the harbies main advantages, although I did derp up a bit by saying "with turrets." Still, it was just to illustrate the point that a Drake isn't used so much because of its buffer, but because of its weapon system.

Also, many Drakes run with 2x BCU/2x nano, or 2xBCU/DCU/PDU, in which case the Harb gets more turret dps than the drake gets launcher dps. Even with quad light beams. Lol
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2011-12-07 01:30:46 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:
1. Change armour tanking penalties and fitting reqs.

2. Continue to fix hybrids.

3. Minmatar can not have the fastest ships with its current system. So either nerf the weapon system or slow down the ships.

4. Possibly look at fitting requirements for Minmatar (maybe not be needed).



... I like this.



or, as I said, nerf the falloff bonus on the hulls themselves only and make blaster ships more mobile than AC ships.


granted a power creep of sorts, but it's better than just "nerf nerf nerf".

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#97 - 2011-12-07 01:59:05 UTC
CCP is more likely to mess with Scorch, Barrage, and Null then modify Tracking Enhancers. Null range will broaden or the other two will see theirs shrink. I can't link CCP Tallest's comments from my iPhone but that is how I interpreted it.
Maroxus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#98 - 2011-12-07 02:12:25 UTC
Roosterton wrote:
Maroxus wrote:

I was wondering WTF you were talking about, but you're including drone dps. Its turret dps with Imperial navy multi is 372 which is less then a drake with 3x bcu and faction scourge (414). You're wrong on :

Roosterton wrote:
A Harby can get 98k EHP and superior DPS to a Drake, with turrets.


Its 386 with focused pulse and you won't have the powergrid to put a propulsion mod + that EHP. Part of the Harb's dps is medium drones and they can die. Especially in lowsec.

The strength of the drake is its balance. Strong buffer, great range, decent dps, easy to use, few weaknesses, and its affordable cost. All gained in a single hml setup.


I don't see why drones shouldn't be included, as it's one of the harbies main advantages, although I did derp up a bit by saying "with turrets." Still, it was just to illustrate the point that a Drake isn't used so much because of its buffer, but because of its weapon system.

Also, many Drakes run with 2x BCU/2x nano, or 2xBCU/DCU/PDU, in which case the Harb gets more turret dps than the drake gets launcher dps. Even with quad light beams. Lol


My experience of lowsec gate guns eating my drones made me prejudice against them Evil. I already get your point. I still say its the balance. By all means nerf the hml range to 40km or something. The drake would still be good for gangs, but I imagine there wont drake fleets Straight. Leaving the fleet stuff to Minmatar/Amarr Ugh

Also if you're going to ignore that setup's explosive hole then I'll ignore the drake's EM hole. A drake with PDU can switch the photon to an invul and get .. 101k ehp! Gaining an amazing 1.5k ehp more then that Harb. Bam!!
LunaK
Doomheim
#99 - 2011-12-07 02:31:07 UTC
Maroxus wrote:
By all means nerf the hml range to 40km or something.


lol
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2011-12-07 04:10:11 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
It's worth mentioning here as well that CCP Diagoras has kindly provided https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=464085#post464085 final blow statistics for a selection of ship types:

Frigates:
Rifter 186,502
Dramiel 120,305
Punisher 44,621
Merlin 37,372
Incursus 35,735

Cruisers:
Cynabal 133,399
Rupture 118,406
Thorax 90,771
Vexor 81,527
Caracal 66,385

HAC:
Vagabond 389,449
Zealot 253,838
Ishtar 152,419
Cerberus 136,244
Muninn 83,884

Battlecruiser:
Drake 732,236
Hurricane 629,933
Harbinger 236,607
Myrmidon 116,046
Brutix 85,931

Battleship:
Megathron 248,100
Armageddon 205,269
Abaddon 198,930
Tempest 172,610
Raven 155,977

Interceptor:
Taranis 110,616
Crow 78,830
Crusader 52,683
Claw 22,226
Malediction 20,363

Carrier:
Thanatos 48,726
Chimera 19,358
Archon 18,985
Nidhoggur 11,592

Strategic Cruiser:
Tengu 104,917
Loki 64,095
Legion 46,875
Proteus 40,945


This is data on final blows. Over what time period? What situations? If we are to take these data dumps as evidence for nerfing a whole race of ships or weapon system we'd end up with some of the following (against which I'm sure Caldari complainers would weap mightilly). The Drake is still #1, nerf Drake not Hurricane, or nerf both. Buff Muninn and nerf Cerb. Nerf Crow and buff Claw and Stilletto. Oh and of course the best one, nerf Tengu.

If we are to read these stats as a recipe for nerfs, then nerf Megathron, Thanatos, Taranis. But isn't it Gallente moaning about being on the bottom?

Alternately, everyone seems concerned that diminishing the recent TE/TC falloff buff will also hit blasters. However, the falloff ranges have become somewhat out of whack. A falloff reduction for these mods will hit ac more harshly than balsters. As for the speed situation with blaster boats and ac boats, would it not make more sense to boost straight line speed for gallente but keep minmatar as most agile. Blasters just got a tracking buff. Giving blaster boats more agility in addition would imperil any ac boat ability to gain range back.

These stats need to be refined and explained more. Also the Dramiel just got nerfed. WIll it slide down the list? Sorry but the OP is premature to say that argument is over and all the evidence is in. The only decent suggestion I've seen in this thread is to drop the 10% falloff buffs down to 5%. This btw should be done for Caldari missile and hybrid ships as well, some of which even get double 10% range bonuses.


Those are all time (well, since 2007 or so) stats iirc. The stats on page 1 are 2011 only. While we are at it, just paste the actual link instead of trying to link it through another word / the "Create Link" button; the new forums suck ass.