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Dev blog: Principles of Industry in EVE Online

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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#121 - 2014-07-04 13:41:42 UTC
Odoya wrote:
7even0f9 wrote:
Gotta say that as a dedicated industrialist for the last 5 years almost ,that im not welcomeing the new changes.
CCP says its refined and focused on industrial work, but in fact what they have done is make it harder for us to make a liveing out of it.
you have taken away the ability to remote reserch,copy and invent from stations to pos's while saying that its easier and quicker to stick multi million if not billion isk BPo's directly into pos's for a time advantage.

Lets get real for a second.
No experianced industrialist in there right mind is going to put a billion isk plus bpo into a pos to copy or reserch with the new system as its too much to risk if we get wardecced and attacked.

And it will happen as i personaly know people in game who are swapping corps to get ready to solely wardec indy corps who have pos's, so they can take em out in the hopes of bpo's drops from labs.
So all you have done is create more war and conflict and encourage assholes to be bigger assholes against the people who make them their equipment.

Secondly forceing industrialist to travel all over eve to make profit from stations near and far is just shortsighted. i wont be doing it and neither will many others ive talked too.
In fact what we are going to do is stop manufacturing for the market and just do it for oursleves, as its all just too much effort for too little gain.

Bitter Vet you may so. i say im a realist.

you reduce the isk people can make from one patch to the next and expect people to just suck it up.
well this little bunny has had enough.
i run 13 accounts and 30 toons and have finaly decided to call it quits with industry work as its just getting all too hard.
the last 7 subscriptions have lapsed and wont be renewed and am just going to operate on 3 accounts. and thats if i even keep playing.

The problem in this game is theres just too many assholes who seem to get there kicks from makeing other people's lives hell. And the number of them is increaseing from year to year, makeing it harder to recruit new players and even harder convinceing them that this used to be the best space MMO out there. Which of course now its not anymore thanks to CCP's short sightedness.
I agree its hard to cater for all players. But it can be done.
Ive sent CCp many emails over the years with idea's and suggestions to keep indy people interested in the game and to keep new people who come into the game safe. all of which have fallen on deaf ears.
So keep going down the path and this game will be reduced to just one thing. Another game to look back on and say, yes i remember eve. it was really great game onece upon a time.
Something to think on.


It is crazy how the disincentives to play are mounting. High sec mining and ice mining are not viable activities for a new player who wants to experience success mastering the game basics with better equipment. Gut check that against what the representation of high sec is. Basic game logic is so fouled that the disincentives to grief are trivial and these changes are an extension of that broken logic.

Why extend the risk for those of us who have put in a lot of real hours making significant investments of time and energy playing by the game logic? Now industrialists are being forced to expose years of built up assets to a risk of loss that is unreasonably disproportionate to the amount of time invested by moderately successful industrialists. There is a basic lack of parity here being made worse.

It costs a company more to acquire new customers than it does to keep existing customers happy.


Yup.

Everyone, ignore the PCU counts comparing the week of July 1st 2012, 2013, and 2014, or just about any other date this summer.
Ignore the fact that CCP marketing is suddenly no longer trumpeting "x years continuing growth".
Ignore all the high sec posters, and multiple bloggers, warning that they are pulling the plug on their indy accounts because high sec industry is finished.
Ignore the fact that the release date is 18 days away with a ton of unanswered questions, and numerous people say that there is a lot of broken stuff still on Singularity.

Null sec will pick up the slack with a massive surge in subs that will far outstrip the high sec losses, or at least that is what the cartels have promised CCP.
Mackenzie Nolen
Doomheim
#122 - 2014-07-04 14:57:56 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
In addition, there are a number of issues which were raised by the devs in the original devblogs, but never followed up on by them - not in later devblogs nor in the forums.

For example, I'd like to hear if CCP Greyscale has made any final decision with regards to reimbursing, or not, ME/PE levels above 10 on BPOs. I've posted the question a few times in different forum threads, during the past couple of months, but I haven't seen an answer from CCP yet. (If CCP Greyscale did post an answer, perhaps I was indeed under the rock at the time - in which case, I apologize.)


Those aren't issues the devs raised, those are issues the players are raising. The details of the changes are well covered. Did you see any details about reimbursement for BPOs past 10/10? No. And it's now two weeks until this goes live. So there will be no reimbursement; anyone who thinks this is still an "open issue" is delusional.

The changes as described by the devs are going live on the 22nd. Between the blogs and the follow up dev posts in the forum threads, the details of the mechanics changes are completely fleshed out. There are no open issues beyond the outstanding bugs, just plenty of things people aren't necessarily happy with.
Skrizzy
Superior Plystic Group
#123 - 2014-07-04 16:13:57 UTC
As long as the changes do not take down the possibilities to earn ISK as a solo/small corp industrialist/inventionist casual player in high sec its not going to be a huge account killer. But if it does it sure will be.

Most accounts are still casual players in high sec, low sec is too dangerous and null is safe but very boring and lonely for a casual player.

I have quite a few accounts, and one have been living as a neg 10 guy in low sec since the game started brought out the most fun, but that is nothing for a casual player as you almost always need friends and/or scouts online to be able to even undock.

There is still a lot of fun ( PVP) in the game, but as a non alliance gamer you need a way to fund the fun things over time and manufacturing paired with inventions have been a way, that have been a bit challenging, but there are a few things that gives you a small reward. Funding the gaming that way make it worth to log in almost every day to do some change, start new manufacturing and inventions or change prices in the market. And after some weeks doing that you have some isk to go out and have some fun PVPing for a weekend or so.
Another way to fund fun things is to run Incursions, but that is boring as hell and need your 100% attention 6-10 hour a day for a weekend or so every month. That makes it a "no thing to do" for a casual player. Also that is for chars that have almost all lvl5s in the ships they are flying. Ok I have but can not spend the time for that...

To be able to log in for 30 mins up to an hour daily to earn isk enough to be able to have fun or to get ISK for new ships or expensive modules is the challenges that CCP have to face.

If manufacturing and Invention changes to be only for the big alliances a lot of accounts will withdraw.
Skrizzy
Superior Plystic Group
#124 - 2014-07-04 16:41:36 UTC
Skrizzy wrote:
As long as the changes do not take down the possibilities to earn ISK as a solo/small corp industrialist/inventionist casual player in high sec its not going to be a huge account killer. But if it does it sure will be.

Most accounts are still casual players in high sec, low sec is too dangerous and null is safe but very boring and lonely for a casual player.

I have quite a few accounts, and one have been living as a neg 10 guy in low sec since the game started brought out the most fun, but that is nothing for a casual player as you almost always need friends and/or scouts online to be able to even undock.

There is still a lot of fun ( PVP) in the game, but as a non alliance gamer you need a way to fund the fun things over time and manufacturing paired with inventions have been a way, that have been a bit challenging, but there are a few things that gives you a small reward. Funding the gaming that way make it worth to log in almost every day to do some change, start new manufacturing and inventions or change prices in the market. And after some weeks doing that you have some isk to go out and have some fun PVPing for a weekend or so.
Another way to fund fun things is to run Incursions, but that is boring as hell and need your 100% attention 6-10 hour a day for a weekend or so every month. That makes it a "no thing to do" for a casual player. Also that is for chars that have almost all lvl5s in the ships they are flying. Ok I have but can not spend the time for that...

To be able to log in for 30 mins up to an hour daily to earn isk enough to be able to have fun or to get ISK for new ships or expensive modules is the challenges that CCP have to face.

If manufacturing and Invention changes to be only for the big alliances a lot of accounts will withdraw.


By funding I not mean to PLEX my accounts, I can pay for game time but not for much more.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#125 - 2014-07-04 19:33:40 UTC
Skrizzy wrote:
Skrizzy wrote:
As long as the changes do not take down the possibilities to earn ISK as a solo/small corp industrialist/inventionist casual player in high sec its not going to be a huge account killer. But if it does it sure will be.

Most accounts are still casual players in high sec, low sec is too dangerous and null is safe but very boring and lonely for a casual player.

I have quite a few accounts, and one have been living as a neg 10 guy in low sec since the game started brought out the most fun, but that is nothing for a casual player as you almost always need friends and/or scouts online to be able to even undock.

There is still a lot of fun ( PVP) in the game, but as a non alliance gamer you need a way to fund the fun things over time and manufacturing paired with inventions have been a way, that have been a bit challenging, but there are a few things that gives you a small reward. Funding the gaming that way make it worth to log in almost every day to do some change, start new manufacturing and inventions or change prices in the market. And after some weeks doing that you have some isk to go out and have some fun PVPing for a weekend or so.
Another way to fund fun things is to run Incursions, but that is boring as hell and need your 100% attention 6-10 hour a day for a weekend or so every month. That makes it a "no thing to do" for a casual player. Also that is for chars that have almost all lvl5s in the ships they are flying. Ok I have but can not spend the time for that...

To be able to log in for 30 mins up to an hour daily to earn isk enough to be able to have fun or to get ISK for new ships or expensive modules is the challenges that CCP have to face.

If manufacturing and Invention changes to be only for the big alliances a lot of accounts will withdraw.


By funding I not mean to PLEX my accounts, I can pay for game time but not for much more.


Most casual players don't even read the forums, and have no idea this is coming.
When July 22nd arrives, it will be like an anvil on their heads.

It will take them a month or 2 to realize how bad this is for them, since there is zero ways to remain in high sec and "adapt", unless adapting means losing 90% of your profits for twice as much work and 10 times the risk. So around month 3, maybe month 4, the unsubbed accounts start lapsing.

The only way it does not show is if the cartels order all their minions to fire up a new account, and keep it going. Given the massive income in null, that should not be too hard.
Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#126 - 2014-07-04 22:00:13 UTC
The more I read about changes to industry as a whole, the more I get the subtle feeling this is CCP Greyscale's apology patch for what he did to null sec space in the Dominion expansion so many years ago... What?
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#127 - 2014-07-04 23:32:07 UTC
I've not liked much at all of what I've heard of these changes. It seems to me like you are dumbing down industry and trying to pretend like you are not. The only thing that you are making more involved is the hauling which is a different job all together. BTW I've not heard anyone say that hauling is anything other than the most boring tedious job in game so not sure why you want to make it be used more.

I suspect you are just trying to force players into null. If you want more people into null you have to make null more fun and more friendly to people that are not hyper aggressive PvPers shoot anything that moves and anything that doesn't move shoot until it moves kinda people, because you already have all of them in null. You will not increase null population by making it more fine tuned to the specific group that is already there.

The current null mechanics make it a good place for only one kind of game play and that is large alliance lock everything down and making super unfriendly and then you wonder why no one goes there. These industry changes are intended to benefit large null sov holders and as such will only succeed in making it more unfriendly to smaller start ups. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Look at Provi. Listen to your alliance panel from fanfest. Look at the teams on the list to be in this years Alliance Tournament. Most of them are Provi regulars either blue or red they frequent Provi and many of the panelists from fanfest said provi is where they go for fun.

So instead of making things more friendly to smaller Alliances and making null space have to be used to make isk you have only given the large alliances more of a reason to lock down null and shut out competition. I wonder if you Devs have ever even played this game.

So when null is 95% controled by CFC or people that are NAPed to CFC will you finally understand that you are headed in the wrong direction?

Make moon mining interactive. No more passive income.

Give sov holders more ways to earn isk from neuts and make it so that using your space is more profitable than locking it down.

Make NRDS more profitable than NBSI.

Do these things and you'll see null get used more. Continue down the path that you are headed and you'll only widen the divide between high sec and null.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#128 - 2014-07-05 01:23:20 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Dread Nanana wrote:
As I wrote already on test server feedback, thanks for boosting T2 BPOs and completely nerfing inventions. Nothing says "good at X" than being bad at it once more.

If some of invention people still don't know because you haven't loaded Test server to see, invention attempt times for modules are increased from 2h per attempt to 8-14h per attempt. And T2 production times are cut significantly allowing T2 BPO owners to produce 2+x than they did before and inventions people can basically pound salt.

If CCP killed T2 BPOs, these changes would simply mean high T2 module prices for everyone. Tough, but fair. But no, what we get is T2 BPO owners get their ISK printing machines back.

Cheers...


On the contrary, the overall time (copy+invent+build) for many modules has only increased by a small amount thanks to reduction in copy times and production times alike, and the combined time is actually dramatically decreased on most ships. Combine that with the materials changes that mean that the days of 50%+ cost advantage for T2 BPO holders are over and T2 BPO holders are definitely the ones getting the short end of the stick in Crius, as it should be.

If invention times are really going up by a factor of 4X or more I'm not sure how that is not an invention nerf. Getting an very low skill alt to my copies for you is not hard and manufacturing slots are often taken up by other stuff and/or alts used to help. Invention is the high skill point choke point in that chain and if you are nerfing it by four times you are nerfing invention plain and simple. How ever I've not been on SiSi yet so I'm not sure if that is actually the case.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Ryshca
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#129 - 2014-07-05 14:46:56 UTC
Guttripper wrote:
The more I read about changes to industry as a whole, the more I get the subtle feeling this is CCP Greyscale's apology patch for what he did to null sec space in the Dominion expansion so many years ago... What?


The more i read about changes to industry, the more i get the feeling CCP Greyscale doesn't know what he is doing.
Instead of fixing 'broken' industry stuff step by step the industry patch changes a whole lot which isnt broken at all. I can predict already by the way CCP handles patch that all things which gets broken by this patch won't be touched for years again.
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#130 - 2014-07-05 15:51:17 UTC
Ryshca wrote:

Instead of fixing 'broken' industry stuff step by step the industry patch changes a whole lot which isnt broken at all.


Do you want a free Ferrari? I should never have bought the thing, it's not like my Ford KA was broken so why the hell did I change it?

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
May O'Neez
Flying Blacksmiths
#131 - 2014-07-05 17:03:12 UTC
This devblog is a good point because it allows to emphasis what is the vision of CCP regarding its game, and it allows players to make a clearer choice about their interrest or not in the future. Personnaly I'm a bit disappointed that CCPs prefers again to force players into a playstyle rather to give more different opportunities of performing the game.

- regarding Industry being easier to be done: the new UI is good looking but finally the information is lost among the graphics: for example what is the purpose of the colored brackets ? There is also plenty of space lost that could have been used to put aside market windows, information windows, etc. It's like the new inventory UI which forces people multiplying the number of clicks to overcome loss of usability.

- force people to change everytime, break predictability, force people to make copies and / or move precious BPO ... all people may not. Some of their margin will shrink to a point where they won't change decisions but might rather give up, because before the expansion moving stuff and hauling goods was already a pain and now it will become even more. Little corps and individual industrialist will learn the very hard way. On the other side, big corp and alliance won't see a change at all because their size allow to absorb any damage. I can't even figure out if doing cap-sized stuff will still be feasible in average corps because of the reproc nerf replaced by impractical POS-only compression and the VAT on each production step (the worst being jump freighters).

- you were mentionning alliances among industrialists. It may exist in null sec, but I did'nt see that in hisec. Maybe i'm wrong, but what I saw is free for all, industrialists work in an agressive competition context. There is already a lot of challenges due to market analysis and manipulation, supplies variability and conflics on popular products (industry-wise) like the rigs. This was already difficult and interresting, but you think that industry is easy, flat and lame and decided to add a bunch of complexity above, not on the technical but on the human level. The part which was already though to handle depending on the market you work on.
Cagot
Zendian Solutions
#132 - 2014-07-05 17:44:22 UTC
Thanks for the blog - seeing the big picture helps me understand what challenges I'm going to be facing.

Changing the UI to be more intuitive is certainly a good thing - it's currently pretty opaque to the new manufacturer, especially one who hasn't gone through the manufacturing intro or has forgotten it. Those of us who use it regularly are used to its quirks, but there's no denying that they're quirks.

I'm not sure there's going to be a place for me in the new order, though. I'm more of a "hobbyist" manufacturer and inventor than a Nike or Honda cluster-wide operation. I did Proteus manufacture solo in a wormhole for about three years (thereby winning EVE, of course), but it's not clear that under the new regime I'd be able to do it profitably. If you have to attract some kinds of people to your system (or are they virtual NPC work gangs?) or repel others (he mentioned hiring mercs), and move your operation to a better place regularly, that will cut into the profits.

Given the recent huge size vs armor "balancing" to freighters, shifting my manufacturing base may be challenging. I've recently started an Obelisk manufacturing operation, but if I have to keep moving the expensive BPOs and the piles of minerals around it could mean more moving than building... or do I need to get a Rorq to compress those piles? This seems to favor the blue donut kind of operation, where you have lots of safe travel infrastructure and wide-open spaces under your control, as well as easily-available mineral compression.

I guess it's all about specialization. The age of the generalist may have passed. In fact, it probably passed long ago and I just didn't notice it until now.
Tyranis Marcus
Bloody Heathens
#133 - 2014-07-05 19:43:37 UTC
Cool blog.

Do not run. We are your friends.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#134 - 2014-07-05 19:52:30 UTC
Mackenzie Nolen wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
In addition, there are a number of issues which were raised by the devs in the original devblogs, but never followed up on by them - not in later devblogs nor in the forums.

For example, I'd like to hear if CCP Greyscale has made any final decision with regards to reimbursing, or not, ME/PE levels above 10 on BPOs. I've posted the question a few times in different forum threads, during the past couple of months, but I haven't seen an answer from CCP yet. (If CCP Greyscale did post an answer, perhaps I was indeed under the rock at the time - in which case, I apologize.)

Those aren't issues the devs raised, those are issues the players are raising. The details of the changes are well covered. Did you see any details about reimbursement for BPOs past 10/10? No. And it's now two weeks until this goes live. So there will be no reimbursement; anyone who thinks this is still an "open issue" is delusional.

From CCP Greyscale's devblog, "Researching, the Future":

CCP Greyscale wrote:
We're very aware that some of you will feel that you've lost your previous advantages gained by researching blueprints for a really long time, and this is one of the areas we're preparing to focus the most on in terms of receiving feedback and making adjustments or additions to smooth the transition. Everything is on the table in terms of finding a reasonable solution that meets everyone's legitimate concerns, so please approach the feedback in terms of telling us what you'd like to see rather than simply expressing frustration with the changes as described here. We're not done with this yet!
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#135 - 2014-07-06 20:05:32 UTC
just to say - I did appreciate that blog, a very useful summation, but a release date would have been a useful addition.
Xe

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Vin Cornelius
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2014-07-06 21:43:40 UTC
The devblog is really interesting...hope to find more of this in the future.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#137 - 2014-07-07 11:15:27 UTC
Guttripper wrote:
The more I read about changes to industry as a whole, the more I get the subtle feeling this is CCP Greyscale's apology patch for what he did to null sec space in the Dominion expansion so many years ago... What?


The way Dominion turned out is not something I am particularly happy with, no. Insofaras Crius relates to nullsec (which is much less than a lot of people are making out), it's not directly trying to correct issues introduced in Dominion, but rather moving us a step closer to rectifying some long-standing historical issues. It's worth reiterating though that Crius is not targeted at Nullsec and we're not expecting it to be a *significant* boost to Null industry. That will require more targeted intervention, and yes, it will involve a lot of careful balancing between null and empire to ensure we don't break anything.

All that said, if patches-as-apologies is the lens through which you're viewing things, just wait for my "apology" for Rev2 :P
quygen
Acting Neutral
#138 - 2014-07-07 12:22:19 UTC
I can see how this works out for your avarage little inventor, they can benifit, but you are overlooking the big fishes. They won't start moving just becasue the sheer size of their operations. (hunderds of BPO's, POS's, Minerals, Tools, Indusrial ships, alt accounts)

You are trying to move a skyscraper, instead it will just fall down.
javer
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2014-07-07 15:23:29 UTC
sigh and we now have another great patch by ccp comming up were they
a: break 2/3 of a working feature
b: manage to take the few parts that wasnt broken and break them so were left with a wasteland for industry, yeah it might be lvl but its still a damned wasteland

the goal was added information and ease of use?

so tell me how is the teams easier to use? having a firm price and bonus like old upgrades was good for planning

tell me what does the new radial wheel from hell display that the old one didnt do?

and show info on blueprints, has been enhanced how? it shows less info and it doesnt include the info necessary to calculate the effect of a team

so im supposed to move my high value bpos around chasing the cheapest build price in stations? every month! yeah good luck f-no aint happening

lack of controll over the assembly lines after spending 60bill on upgrades yeah sure sounds like a good feature

the entire patch is based on building a nice house on a foundation thats sitting in a quagmire,

start with fixing the broken core bits like access settings for corp, then doing poses (you know the thing that all our arrays are parked at were our bpos are supposed to be, and that has security holes a plenty or no users beside directors

then when those 2 are in place you could do industry and invention in same run as they are linked thanks to t2 markets
Bessa Miros
#140 - 2014-07-07 22:07:56 UTC
Good work CCP. It's looking good on the Test Server...

Feedback:

1. Would like to filter Blueprints by Original or Copy. (Might as well do that for inventory filters too.)
2. Would like to copy my Blueprints (like inventory) - paste outside of client

Thanks