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Help- which battleship is better for lv4 missions in general?
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Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2014-06-29 14:42:07 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
The ones that lost a bit of raw DPS gained additional projection and/or application. They all got buffed.


Imho, that is a very EFT-stance. Drones are now a huge SP sink, and have increased micromanaging needs. In fact this micromanaging paired with the imho "stupid" long cycle time of "omni directional tracking link" add up to a hefty applied dps loss.
I think you're just talking about this last change, but with the other changes to drone boats which can't be ignored...
Huge nerf.

Drones are not a SP sink because no matter what race you fly, you needed to train drones sooner or later.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#22 - 2014-06-29 16:26:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Walkuris
No, drones being an SP sink isn't new. But it never bothered me because out of 4 empires 3 have dedicated drone hulls, and drones are almost ALWAYS a secondary dps system. So it really isn't a bad SP investment in my book.
But now with empire specific drone skills covering sentry drone damage. We see nerf in damage and a MASSIVE SP sink of 4 separate 5x skills.
I've felt missile skills need a complete overhaul for a long time now, but now drones are looking a little weird too.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#23 - 2014-06-29 16:48:29 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
No drones being an SP sink isn't new. But it never bothered me because out of 4 empires 3 have dedicated drone hulls, and drones are almost ALWAYS a secondary dps system. So it really isn't a bad SP investment in my book.
But now with empire specific drone skills covering sentry drone damage. We see nerf in damage and a MASSIVE SP sink of 4 separate 5x skills.
I've felt missile skills need a copmlete overhaul for a long time now, but now drones are looking a little weird too.


Okay so they have one specialization skill that covers all drones for that race? Why not make it like gunnery and have one specialization for each size? Amarr Light drone specialization, Amarr Medium drone specialization, Amarr Heavy drone specialization, Amarr Sentry drone specialization.

I understand you're not happy that they now added the specialization skill to Sentry drones but it was the oddball out..
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#24 - 2014-06-29 17:14:36 UTC
Yeah having it structured more like gunnery wouldn't suck, but it would remove flavor and diversity. It really doesn't need it, it needs to just not be cross-faction and then faction based again. OR you might as well see Caldari/etc. missile specialization.
I'd agree with sentries, if it wasn't for the fact drones just aren't turrets.

Turrets don't suffer from being deployed and stationary (which means you need to be near stationary), having travel time, 1 second server response damage delays, poor responses to " return to drone-bay", being targeted/killed/webbed.
In general being a pain in the ass click-fest to get the gimped equivalent of, click, boom.
The Ishtar alone doesn't make up for "drones", not putting words in your mouth. Just saying.
There are plenty of drawbacks to drones making up for their virtues and specific ships that make EvE's children wet the bed.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2014-06-30 01:30:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
No, drones being an SP sink isn't new. But it never bothered me because out of 4 empires 3 have dedicated drone hulls, and drones are almost ALWAYS a secondary dps system. So it really isn't a bad SP investment in my book.
But now with empire specific drone skills covering sentry drone damage. We see nerf in damage and a MASSIVE SP sink of 4 separate 5x skills.
I've felt missile skills need a complete overhaul for a long time now, but now drones are looking a little weird too.


The current strategy seems to be close the gap between new players and vets whilst at the same time maintaining the mystique of EVE being a "hardcore game with big learning curve".

Iit would seem a lot of new players want the ability to be awesome at EVE instantly whilst still getting street cred for playing a supposedly hardcore game. If you look at most of the recent changes they all mainly seems to involve making low SP players more effective quicker - but making the final training to get "perfect" skills more onerous by adding new skills at the top end but making them less effective.

The result with drones is that new players can get into a T1 Domi and be reasonable effective a lot faster than before but it actually takes longer and is far harder to get optimal skills.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#26 - 2014-07-02 07:41:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus Walkuris
I agree with that analogy. I advize newbies to go for a dominix and branch out into gunnery based BS.
But lately I'm leaning more and more to telling people to go straight up gunnery and train drones as far as medium drones.
With the SP sink that has become sentry drones, I believe its faster to go all the way to a marauder then to really flesh out drones.
The only reason I still recommend a dominix is because sentries+mjd and script juggling make for a decent set of training wheels. Due to the more then usual range. Edit: And of course because drones are kind of a must for BS anyway. But sentries are too SP sinky now imho.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#27 - 2014-07-02 16:37:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Rattlesnake.

It is better by about 10%

Problem is it fails everywhere else.
It is not a top pick for incursions like other pirate ships.
It takes more SP to get all L5 skill when maxing out the ship.
It also makes you work harder in L4's than other ships to achieve top performance.
What was once the lazy ship of choice is now the most effort of all L4 ships.

Rattlesnake does have a good afk mode: Fly a single Gecko. It can only fly one, but it has a huge bonus to that one. I commonly see hits of 1000 to 2000 points from it. And its EHP is so high (due to the bonus) that it can draw full room aggro, and still take out the room. (Although usually its a good idea to pull it back in.) With two Omnis with tracking scripts it can even take out the frigs.

Launch the Gecko, sit back and watch the explosions.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-07-02 17:05:58 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
The ones that lost a bit of raw DPS gained additional projection and/or application. They all got buffed.


Imho, that is a very EFT-stance. Drones are now a huge SP sink, and have increased micromanaging needs. In fact this micromanaging paired with the imho "stupid" long cycle time of "omni directional tracking link" add up to a hefty applied dps loss.
I think you're just talking about this last change, but with the other changes to drone boats which can't be ignored...
Huge nerf.


You said drones are now a huge SP sink? Is this something new? I've been playing for over four years and the only major SP change I can think of was nerfing the Drone Interfacing skill. I just woke up so I could be forgetting something.

Yeah I'm not happy with many of the drone nerfs. Between nerfing sentry drones (not the last change) to nerfing omnis, aggro changes and many others. Now there have been some buffs like to T1 sentry drones but that's just making new player changes in response to the "Eve is too hard" crowd.

Drones are still good but at least in PVE they're not nearly as useful as they once were. Sentry drones still work but anything else is close range only.

I still can't believe CCP didn't reduce the rank of Drone Interfacing. The skill is now less important and powerful than it used to be, it should have a reduced amount of training required to max it out, with the SP difference being refunded.
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#29 - 2014-07-02 19:55:54 UTC
Ohh I can :D. All the talk of linear progression to me seemed no more then a really lame excuse for added SP sinks. And I don't get why it has to be all "slip it into your drink" kind of way about it.
But I've always been a lone and ridiculed voice on that topic, I hated the BC/desto changes and most Skill changes after. I liked battlecruisers as a platform to find out how far you wanted to invest into a specific weapon system and a soft cross-train.
\apparently it is deemed necessary to add SP sinks for the general health of EvE.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-07-02 20:06:46 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
apparently it is deemed necessary to add SP sinks for the general health of EvE.

Yes it is. . Skill point sinks keep people subscribing. If Eve wasn't about progression through skill point sinks I would have quit playing two weeks after I started.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2014-07-02 22:52:19 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
Imho, that is a very EFT-stance. Drones are now a huge SP sink, and have increased micromanaging needs. In fact this micromanaging paired with the imho "stupid" long cycle time of "omni directional tracking link" add up to a hefty applied dps loss.
I think you're just talking about this last change, but with the other changes to drone boats which can't be ignored...
Huge nerf.

How about some numbers from another thread on drones:

Arronicus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Sentry drones are getting nerfed in Kronos, nuff said.


Having tested out my ishtar fleet that I run anomalies with on the test server to test their performance:

Lol. No, they aren't.


Curator I - +15% tracking, -50% falloff, +18.15% damage
Warden I - +40% falloff, +12% damage
Garde I - +50% falloff, +2% damage
Bouncer I - +60% tracking, -12.5% optimal, +14.3% falloff, +2.86% damage

Curator II - +15% tracking, -50% falloff, +8.31% damage
Warden II - +40% falloff, +2.67% damage
Garde II - +50% falloff, -6.5% damage
Bouncer II - +60% tracking, -12.5% optimal, +14.3% falloff, -5.71% damage

Gardes and bouncers are losing a little bit of damage, but gaining FAR better damage application
Curators are losing some un-used falloff, and getting a ton of tracking and damge
Wardens are just straight up getting buffed.

Whatever you are smoking, you may want to lay off a bit.


I have yet to have to really micro manage my drones and I never feel a need to change the scripts in my tracking links. Drone boats are fine. The nerf to drone assist was a big one, but a justified one. For small scale operations though, drones are better than they have ever been.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#32 - 2014-07-02 23:51:48 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
Imho, that is a very EFT-stance. Drones are now a huge SP sink, and have increased micromanaging needs. In fact this micromanaging paired with the imho "stupid" long cycle time of "omni directional tracking link" add up to a hefty applied dps loss.
I think you're just talking about this last change, but with the other changes to drone boats which can't be ignored...
Huge nerf.

How about some numbers from another thread on drones:

Arronicus wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Sentry drones are getting nerfed in Kronos, nuff said.


Having tested out my ishtar fleet that I run anomalies with on the test server to test their performance:

Lol. No, they aren't.


Curator I - +15% tracking, -50% falloff, +18.15% damage
Warden I - +40% falloff, +12% damage
Garde I - +50% falloff, +2% damage
Bouncer I - +60% tracking, -12.5% optimal, +14.3% falloff, +2.86% damage

Curator II - +15% tracking, -50% falloff, +8.31% damage
Warden II - +40% falloff, +2.67% damage
Garde II - +50% falloff, -6.5% damage
Bouncer II - +60% tracking, -12.5% optimal, +14.3% falloff, -5.71% damage

Gardes and bouncers are losing a little bit of damage, but gaining FAR better damage application
Curators are losing some un-used falloff, and getting a ton of tracking and damge
Wardens are just straight up getting buffed.

Whatever you are smoking, you may want to lay off a bit.


I have yet to have to really micro manage my drones and I never feel a need to change the scripts in my tracking links. Drone boats are fine. The nerf to drone assist was a big one, but a justified one. For small scale operations though, drones are better than they have ever been.

I disagree with the points about Curators. Since falloff is what primarily gets buffed by the omnis, the curator's tiny falloff makes for a fairly narrow engagement range where they're better than Gardes before you're better off switching to Bouncers/Wardens. They used to be a decent LR option for things that were weak to EM, but with the tiny falloff notsomuch anymore.
Triakis Cadelanne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2014-07-03 01:08:31 UTC
Vargur is definitly the best. If you're looking for a cheaper solution that can lead you to the Vargur, then you might want to buy a Maelstrom.
Bala Subramanian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2014-07-03 10:55:37 UTC
Apart from BS, is Tengu good for lvl 4 missions ?
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2014-07-03 11:52:55 UTC
Bala Subramanian wrote:
Apart from BS, is Tengu good for lvl 4 missions ?


Well obviously.


But why use a T3 when a cheaper T1 Battleship does the job quicker with no risk of SP loss if you get disconnected?
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#36 - 2014-07-04 06:57:12 UTC
marauders they can tank head on impact with a planet and have over 9000 dps....seriously

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2014-07-04 08:28:56 UTC
Someone please explain to me how the difference 0.012 and 0.019 rad/s or 12 and 18 km translates into FAR BETTER damage application.

I mean, its like they would lower the pg requirement on PULSE lasers to justify a damage nerf...

Spreadsheet development.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2014-07-04 12:02:25 UTC
Because your guns are already at a disadvantage shooting a small target due to the way signature and gun resolution interact. You need MUCH better tracking than your target's angular velocity in order to make up for this.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2014-07-04 12:38:59 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
I disagree with the points about Curators. Since falloff is what primarily gets buffed by the omnis, the curator's tiny falloff makes for a fairly narrow engagement range where they're better than Gardes before you're better off switching to Bouncers/Wardens. They used to be a decent LR option for things that were weak to EM, but with the tiny falloff notsomuch anymore.

I have never needed to use the falloff on Curators ratting out in Providence. But I suppose it could be an issue if you are not using a range bonused hull like the Dominix or Ishtar.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2014-07-04 13:29:20 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Because your guns are already at a disadvantage shooting a small target due to the way signature and gun resolution interact. You need MUCH better tracking than your target's angular velocity in order to make up for this.


Well, thanks for explaining my point why this is not really much better.
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