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Dev blog: Principles of Industry in EVE Online

First post First post First post
Author
Odoya
Aeon Abraxas
#81 - 2014-07-03 02:12:01 UTC
I followed the previous blogs and became disgruntled. Then, I read the blog info on POSes and re-engaged. Now this alarming piece of propaganda has me feeling jaded again. The basic argument for the experience of expertise is undercut by an arbitrary change of game logic (c.f. "systems justification theory" even if only ironically applicable here). One reason it is arbitrary because "lumpiness" idea and the "system % / total %" idea is rooted in a problem observed on another server. Each ecosystem has its own organic history, and this is, at best, a Procrustean fix.

"Scale" is *a* vision for industry, and shouldn't be *the* vision for industry. Responsiveness, nimble development etc should also be a play strategy that is appropriately rewarded based on opportunity. This latter idea will be realized despite the game logic, not because of it.

So, these changes as described in the blog post seem like another disincentive to get into industry. The comparison of industry to crafting fails to represent the economic diversity in Eve relative to many other games. How will this not be a case of "nonlinear metamaterials" now accounting for 70% the cost of Quantum Microprocessor? Is there a back out plan for these changes? So concerns are, a limiting of "play styles" and the disincentive to produce goods (i.e., taxes, fees, charges).

Not to be totally harsh, the UI changes sound promising. I hope it has a good Vegas "slot machine" eye candy feel to it to help offset the feeling that industry is now going to be a losing gamble except for the more elite players.
Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2014-07-03 02:20:40 UTC
well, this was a very good description of the focus of CCP for industry.

I like it.

Could you please do this for other facets of the game?

One facet I would like to know about (and I am certain I am not alone) is CCP's opinion of ganking, especially in high sec.
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#83 - 2014-07-03 03:41:55 UTC
Aalysia Valkeiper wrote:
well, this was a very good description of the focus of CCP for industry.

I like it.

Could you please do this for other facets of the game?

One facet I would like to know about (and I am certain I am not alone) is CCP's opinion of ganking, especially in high sec.




hey now why just stop there.. why not include a nice dev blog about cloaking devices that have jovian unlimited power and no fuel cost, no power cost, no well.. you get the point.

I honestly believe they're just pulling a card out of thin air trying to make up excuses as to reason their detached way of visioning explains for the complete debacle this could potentially become.


the UI is amateur at best it gives me a sense that the person tried to enhance the look of it.. but totally hated the use of it and industry.

it's almost like how they created npc missions.. yikes!

TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#84 - 2014-07-03 04:22:01 UTC
This is great for a DEV blog,

The only thing I miss, is the READ MORE HERE button. If you are an expert in the field of what is described here, an even deeper analyses of choice would be great. Make it forum links, discussion paths, etc.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2014-07-03 04:44:27 UTC
This is a great blog post to preface big changes with. However right now I'd like to be reading the one that's meant for the upcoming invention changes and whatever else is to come past Crius. Filling us in after the fact with the goals of an expansion that we've been providing you feedback on for the last few months seems a bit backward.

That said, more like this! I love having big goals stated clearly because then you can take a look at the smaller changes and see if they're supporting them or not. Then for your smaller parts of the whole you can list sub-goals! It's beautiful organization.

Now that we're this far in and know the goals, let's take a look at how Crius is doing:

1. Easy to Understand
I think the mark has been missed here. A multitude of complicating factors have been added in support of the second goal, including terrain changing, pos bonus alterations etc... The UI is nice, as are the removal of extra materials. However I don't think major strides have been made here. No one is going to be seriously building without the assistance of third party tools, home made spreadsheets and the like. So I'd say a positive leaning wash on this one.

2. Interesting and Skillful
I think there's a big miss here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but risk or reward haven't been added to the system. I'm a T2 manufacturer by trade, so my perspective might be warped, but here's my take: Anyone can build in a station anywhere now. Things built in stations are completely non-interesting. You can't blow up something built in a station. It's 100% safe.

You need to get the mats into space, and you need to keep them in space long enough for them to be at risk. There has to be an incentive for this. So buff POS's or nerf stations, a lot. Once they're in space, you need to make them vulnerable to getting blown up. I know that the massive T2 end to end time reductions are not helping this situation at all. Anything most folks make can be taken out of a POS before threatened.

When you accomplish ^ this, then you'll see people hiring mercs to defend a system, or forming cartels, or cooperating as was stated. For now I can just run my business solo, and if any risk happens I can put all my stuff safely back in the station and switch to my holding corp on an empty alt with a new fresh safe POS. Bleh.

Also as cool and responsive and willing to experiment as you have been CCP Greyscale, I don't think I will ever forgive you for worsening the invention click-fest with Crius. :oP.

Bukka Bazooka
#86 - 2014-07-03 06:09:11 UTC
When is Planetary Interfacing going to be updated? The UI for PI is outdated and antiquated. At least change the white on white on white of the extractor heads that make it horrible to manipulate on ice planets.

Can we not get some sort of figures (ie: numbers) in the scan lines?

Also, the radius of the planets is not scaled when you place PI objects onto the planet. Why does the size of the object not scale to the size of the planet? The extractors and factories are exactly the same size irrespective of gas giants or white dwarf sized planets. This makes it hard to calculate the distances needed for links that eat the CPU exponentially. Scale of structures is very important and neglected.

PI is a part of Science and Industry, it needs addressing too please Ugh

The best ship in EVE....is friendship =)

Bloody Slave
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2014-07-03 06:38:09 UTC
Blogs like this one are not new, people with more than 7 years playing will remember CCP Oveur blogs, mostly sarcastic and hilarious but with the same objective, keep the communications with the players, great times, great blogs.

Keep the good work and don't forget: balancing is a good thing but it is really necessary with everything? One thing that comes to my mind right now is what became the races in EVE with all that balancing - cosmetic and nothing more. If you balance to make player "A" happy you will probably lose player "B" and vice-versa, if you balance to make sure none will be happy you risk losing both.

Now to the old and new folks, a bit nostalgic Advanced Manufacturing blog I was talking about, almost 11 years ago.

Some old explanation about focus of some expansions.

I think this is one of the CCP's best differentials and you will not find it everywhere, don't be fooled to think you are talking to a Developer in any other game just because he uses the logo on his shirt.

I want to stay, at least, another 11 years, even if I need a break here and there (vacations, in our case, since EVE is not a game but a career).

Fly safe.

If your balls are hurt and bleeding don't sit in a pool full of piranhas (note to myself: don't complain in GD)

Quinn Corvez
Perkone
Caldari State
#88 - 2014-07-03 06:42:12 UTC
Thanks for posting thi devblog. I thought that you were ignoring invention, so it is good to know that you intend to look at it in the future.

How far are you guys willing to go? Currently, I can't easily calculate the profits of my invention jobs without creating a spreadsheet. Some people may think this is a good thing but not me... Are you planing to build some ingame tool replace the necessity to spend hours creating spreadsheets?

Rockgut Blackstone
Blackstone Exploration Industrial Corporation
#89 - 2014-07-03 07:14:03 UTC
1. you can roughly sustain 4-5 invention toons with 1 copy toon currently on TQ. (at least for modules)


Maybe I'm really old school but probably a good way to fix industry is to limit people to one account per person Roll

Then 1) any time adjustments would be fair to all, especially we single account industrialists/players in general.

and 2) those who are in null would deserve their risky location 'bonuses'.

However, since game mechanics allow multiple 'toons' per person, whoever has the $ or already has the isk can climb the geometric curve to ridiculous billions fastest.

This mechanic also seems to me to be counter-corporation in nature but that's another issue Blink






7even0f9
Borg Collective Unimatrix Zero
#90 - 2014-07-03 10:12:02 UTC
Gotta say that as a dedicated industrialist for the last 5 years almost ,that im not welcomeing the new changes.
CCP says its refined and focused on industrial work, but in fact what they have done is make it harder for us to make a liveing out of it.
you have taken away the ability to remote reserch,copy and invent from stations to pos's while saying that its easier and quicker to stick multi million if not billion isk BPo's directly into pos's for a time advantage.

Lets get real for a second.
No experianced industrialist in there right mind is going to put a billion isk plus bpo into a pos to copy or reserch with the new system as its too much to risk if we get wardecced and attacked.

And it will happen as i personaly know people in game who are swapping corps to get ready to solely wardec indy corps who have pos's, so they can take em out in the hopes of bpo's drops from labs.
So all you have done is create more war and conflict and encourage assholes to be bigger assholes against the people who make them their equipment.

Secondly forceing industrialist to travel all over eve to make profit from stations near and far is just shortsighted. i wont be doing it and neither will many others ive talked too.
In fact what we are going to do is stop manufacturing for the market and just do it for oursleves, as its all just too much effort for too little gain.

Bitter Vet you may so. i say im a realist.

you reduce the isk people can make from one patch to the next and expect people to just suck it up.
well this little bunny has had enough.
i run 13 accounts and 30 toons and have finaly decided to call it quits with industry work as its just getting all too hard.
the last 7 subscriptions have lapsed and wont be renewed and am just going to operate on 3 accounts. and thats if i even keep playing.

The problem in this game is theres just too many assholes who seem to get there kicks from makeing other people's lives hell. And the number of them is increaseing from year to year, makeing it harder to recruit new players and even harder convinceing them that this used to be the best space MMO out there. Which of course now its not anymore thanks to CCP's short sightedness.
I agree its hard to cater for all players. But it can be done.
Ive sent CCp many emails over the years with idea's and suggestions to keep indy people interested in the game and to keep new people who come into the game safe. all of which have fallen on deaf ears.
So keep going down the path and this game will be reduced to just one thing. Another game to look back on and say, yes i remember eve. it was really great game onece upon a time.
Something to think on.
Spurty
#91 - 2014-07-03 10:19:31 UTC
No longer regretting my alt specializing in industry as much anymore. Lol

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP

Gynax Gallenor
Conquering Darkness
#92 - 2014-07-03 10:35:43 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Ummm...no.
Null sec should not be given massive advantages over high sec, or any other area of null sec, in every aspect of the game.
Null has always had better ratting capabilities.

It now going to have insurmountable advantages in all aspects of the game, and with less risk, since the vast majority of the industry is being done in heavily blued null sec areas.


Okay, but that space is only safe because of a very large player-based effort to make it that way.

If nullsec does not get big advantages over highsec, then there is no real incentive to go out there at all. Or, you do what a lot of nullsec people do, and have highsec alts that fund the nullsec activities.

What I don't understand is why you think highsec should be very rewarding compared to nullsec and lowsec, when highsec offers a lot of relative security that is just provided with no effort on any players behalf? I do not understand your rationale behind that.

Fly Reckless, cos flying safe is no damn fun!

http://flyreckless.com/newsite/

BugraT WarheaD
#93 - 2014-07-03 11:14:11 UTC
Big picture is good. so +1 Greyscale.
Gynax Gallenor
Conquering Darkness
#94 - 2014-07-03 11:55:52 UTC
I think "big picture" blog posts are a great idea, since it gives us a better perspective on what you are trying to achieve with the various mechanics and systems.

I agree with a previous poster that it might be more useful a little earlier in the process though, before details are released, since we can then frame a lot of details in terms of the higher-level concepts.

But overall, good job Greyscale, I am approve. :)

Fly Reckless, cos flying safe is no damn fun!

http://flyreckless.com/newsite/

per
Terpene Conglomerate
#95 - 2014-07-03 13:44:24 UTC
nice blog +1

but this made me chuckle a lil bit when i remembered my overresearched bpo's:
"... You invest in the long term, and those investments pay off...."


Lex Striker
Eldron Enterprises
#96 - 2014-07-03 14:30:50 UTC
I have been an Eve Player now for over 6 years. I have been an active Online Game Player for close to 13 years and have tried many online games over those years. I have to admit, the CCP Devs have been the absolute best, hands down, in communicating with the Eve Online Player Base than any other online game I have been involved with. Most online game devs hardly ever try to communicate with their player base and usually end up shoving whatever developments they come up with down their player base's throats. Even though the CCP Devs/Management have not always been on good terms with the Eve Online Player Base, at least there is communication... which the vast majority of online games just do not come close to having. The thing I like is if a CCP Dev Post comes up, I have a choice of reading it or not... but it is still there. I like this, and it is a damn lot better than not having any post at all. Most other online game dev/player base communications involve fixing what has already been developed... with most future development already fixed in stone in a five year business plan... with hope that the game lasts that long. CCP Devs at least post what they would like to do and ask 'what do you all think?'. A discussion can take place and the CCP Devs can decide if they wish to continue this line of development or tweak what they are doing, and move on. I like this... and why Eve Online is the longest running online game by far that I have played continuously over my online gaming experience... having shelved so many others.

Now I have to admit, CCP has done things with Eve Online that I have not really liked... but so what? CCP is a business. They need to balance making money and pleasing their customers. Basically, I feel they have done the best in the gaming industry in doing that. As long as the CCP Devs believe that the Eve Online Player Base owns Eve Online, I will find it hard to move on to another game.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2014-07-03 16:23:38 UTC
Quote:
Firstly, industry should be easy to understand

disagree... this is eve online. If you don't have a lot of learn.. if it's not a struggle to understand .. you aren't doing it right.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#98 - 2014-07-03 17:48:51 UTC
7even0f9 wrote:
Gotta say that as a dedicated industrialist for the last 5 years almost ,that im not welcomeing the new changes.
CCP says its refined and focused on industrial work, but in fact what they have done is make it harder for us to make a liveing out of it.
you have taken away the ability to remote reserch,copy and invent from stations to pos's while saying that its easier and quicker to stick multi million if not billion isk BPo's directly into pos's for a time advantage.

Lets get real for a second.
No experianced industrialist in there right mind is going to put a billion isk plus bpo into a pos to copy or reserch with the new system as its too much to risk if we get wardecced and attacked.

And it will happen as i personaly know people in game who are swapping corps to get ready to solely wardec indy corps who have pos's, so they can take em out in the hopes of bpo's drops from labs.
So all you have done is create more war and conflict and encourage assholes to be bigger assholes against the people who make them their equipment.

Secondly forceing industrialist to travel all over eve to make profit from stations near and far is just shortsighted. i wont be doing it and neither will many others ive talked too.
In fact what we are going to do is stop manufacturing for the market and just do it for oursleves, as its all just too much effort for too little gain.

Bitter Vet you may so. i say im a realist.

you reduce the isk people can make from one patch to the next and expect people to just suck it up.
well this little bunny has had enough.
i run 13 accounts and 30 toons and have finaly decided to call it quits with industry work as its just getting all too hard.
the last 7 subscriptions have lapsed and wont be renewed and am just going to operate on 3 accounts. and thats if i even keep playing.

The problem in this game is theres just too many assholes who seem to get there kicks from makeing other people's lives hell. And the number of them is increaseing from year to year, makeing it harder to recruit new players and even harder convinceing them that this used to be the best space MMO out there. Which of course now its not anymore thanks to CCP's short sightedness.
I agree its hard to cater for all players. But it can be done.
Ive sent CCp many emails over the years with idea's and suggestions to keep indy people interested in the game and to keep new people who come into the game safe. all of which have fallen on deaf ears.
So keep going down the path and this game will be reduced to just one thing. Another game to look back on and say, yes i remember eve. it was really great game onece upon a time.
Something to think on.



But but but....for every account you drop a new player will add 2 because industry is "easy to understand now", and of course, null sec players will be adding accounts on a one for one mapping with every high sec industrialist account dropped.

In the end, I expect Eve's sub base to grow to 2 million by end of 2015 (once the same wisdom is applied to T2 invention), and by end of 2016, will have surpassed Wow.
And when the new null sec cartel controlled star gates are allowed to be built to territory exclusively controlled by said cartels, well then, every household across the world will have an Eve account, and CCP will be larger than Facebook.
Careby
#99 - 2014-07-03 18:38:21 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
...In the end, I expect Eve's sub base to grow to 2 million by end of 2015 (once the same wisdom is applied to T2 invention), and by end of 2016, will have surpassed Wow.
And when the new null sec cartel controlled star gates are allowed to be built to territory exclusively controlled by said cartels, well then, every household across the world will have an Eve account, and CCP will be larger than Facebook.

While you have your crystal ball handy, would you mind telling me what effect this will have on the in-game price of PLEX?

Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#100 - 2014-07-03 18:48:07 UTC
Great blog. Thank you.

The Tears Must Flow