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Wolf or Jaguar - Brawling
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Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#21 - 2014-07-02 23:32:44 UTC
Is that a joke? I don't care what your killboard says or what videos you have of you killing people with that fit. 90% of fw frigates could rip that thing to pieces. Damage application? You don't have the tracking to apply damage against a competent target. You have a Mwd and a *scram* on an artillery ship. They can just warp off. If you get close you get webscrammed and they're under your guns. Long range kiters aren't afraid of you because they're faster. Mwd brawlers will catch you. That fitting has poor application and control. I looked at your killboard and saw a lot of null combat in cruisers mostly, using cynabals and vagas which are already very strong. I won't question your skills there because, frankly, its not my area of expertise. But you don't have a lot of solo kills that I saw and don't hunt in lowsec. Your fitting will get ripped to pieces there.

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Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#22 - 2014-07-03 04:23:07 UTC
Sigh. Rail Enyo will do for a sniper AF much better then either the Jag or Wolf. It has four turrets. Optimal bonus. Tracking bonus. Double damage bonus. Three mids for choices. Four lows for tank and gank. It has a much better fitting grid then either the Jag or Wolf. In fact a DC and an explosive plate usually gives the Enyo the same EHP the Wolf gets with a 200mm plate.

The Jag really needs a rework. Turn the utility high into a fourth turret. An Arty Wolf with four turrets simply can do more then an Arty Jag with three. The damage curves only show the Jag pulling ahead for 3 - 5 km past the Wolf's optimal. Rework the fitting grid on the Jag so that it's not struggling with both PG and CPU when trying to fit artillery or any kind of tank. (Enyo handles it easily) Increase the armor hit points to match the shield. It's 4-4-4 for a reason.
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#23 - 2014-07-03 05:30:48 UTC
Gonna disagree that the jag is bad. Im loving my new artijag fit Ive been using lately. The difference between wolf and jag in the artillery dps department isnt as huge as you think, since artiwolves fight in falloff. Ive actually flown artiwolf and found it unreliable. artijag is wonderful though.

That said the rail enyo sounds fun. I might try that next.

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Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#24 - 2014-07-03 09:17:50 UTC
To be honest the problem with long point kiting Jags/Wolfs is they are both massively inferior to a Rail Harpies.

The Wolf is an ok brawler but its lack of range control is its weakness and the Jag is basically awful unless you fly it like a Dual Web Arty Firetail, but its still mediocre for an AF.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#25 - 2014-07-03 09:24:37 UTC
Garresh wrote:
Is that a joke? I don't care what your killboard says or what videos you have of you killing people with that fit. 90% of fw frigates could rip that thing to pieces. Damage application? You don't have the tracking to apply damage against a competent target. You have a Mwd and a *scram* on an artillery ship. They can just warp off. If you get close you get webscrammed and they're under your guns. Long range kiters aren't afraid of you because they're faster. Mwd brawlers will catch you. That fitting has poor application and control. I looked at your killboard and saw a lot of null combat in cruisers mostly, using cynabals and vagas which are already very strong. I won't question your skills there because, frankly, its not my area of expertise. But you don't have a lot of solo kills that I saw and don't hunt in lowsec. Your fitting will get ripped to pieces there.


So what you're saying is you looked at the killboard for the character i post on and it didn't magically reveal alt's i have in faction wars? Broken api system!

I pretty much explained the reasoning behind these choices, yet you bring up these points anyway.

Nothing i say will convince you why that fit will work, simply because the piloting style is alien to you and it takes years to get into different habbits. So instead of arguing and achiving nothing, i've looked at your killboard and noticed you seem to fly a strategy of "MWD + Long Point always on" style of ship. You should train some light missile boats, you will get more out of them when using this style.

You will get much more out of Arty boats if you fly them differently from that. I'm not denying a 3.5k/s orbit with artillery will kill things, but you get much more out of manual piloting with more hands-on fits. That wolf fit will perform much better under 1vX situations than an AB/Web/Scram arty Jag. An example being, you burn directly away from the long-point tackler and keep firing, when you have some space between them and other ship, turn around and crash them with your scram. 10 seconds later they are dead and you aren't tackled.

The other option is that you use 200's with lots of TE's and barrage if you aren't confident about applying damage by manual pilot when close to your opponent.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#26 - 2014-07-03 09:33:52 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
To be honest the problem with long point kiting Jags/Wolfs is they are both massively inferior to a Rail Harpies.

The Wolf is an ok brawler but its lack of range control is its weakness and the Jag is basically awful unless you fly it like a Dual Web Arty Firetail, but its still mediocre for an AF.


Wolf/Jag has the option of loading EMP and getting point blank on the harpy - at long range it has zero chance of winning. Arty is like old medium AC's - you can chose damage type and then either get close to long range boats for nice effective damage, or kite close range boats.

Admittedly the Harpy can tank like a beast though.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#27 - 2014-07-03 09:50:54 UTC
If a Rail Harpy gets brawled by another AF its ****** up.

I'm not wholly keen on your Arty fit, I have flown similar semi-brawl set ups with the ability to dive in at the end of a fight but I think they are much better suited to ships like the Retri which have much better tracking with the projection to kite out of scram/web range as well.

Also in lowsec so many ships are AB fit you can almost run a long point just for the extra range, scram isn't going to improve your range control in a lot of situations anyways.

Also the ANP and Trimark are both wasted IMO.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#28 - 2014-07-03 09:59:54 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
If a Rail Harpy gets brawled by another AF its ****** up.

I'm not wholly keen on your Arty fit, I have flown similar semi-brawl set ups with the ability to dive in at the end of a fight but I think they are much better suited to ships like the Retri which have much better tracking with the projection to kite out of scram/web range as well.

Also in lowsec so many ships are AB fit you can almost run a long point just for the extra range, scram isn't going to improve your range control in a lot of situations anyways.

Also the ANP and Trimark are both wasted IMO.


That's a flavour thing. You can try and push a repper on there if that's more your style.
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#29 - 2014-07-03 15:36:28 UTC
Lol so much justification. Everyone in FW is pansies who run at the first sign of a fair fight, and you want to take a short point witj artillery. Roll Okay so you kill bads, whatever. The fitting is terrible and youre counting on your opponents to have down syndrome. You WILL NOT kill an afterburner fit ship with that, so that removes about 50% of FW from your target list. Mwd brawlers eat you for lunch, so all you have a chance vs is mwd kiters. Those will be faster and abuse your tracking and falloff to mitigate damage.

So your ship is good against slow kiters and retards. Wow what a great ship.

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Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#30 - 2014-07-03 19:55:15 UTC
I used to fly a mwd jag w mse and 280s and i had a scram. It really is amusing how many people dont understand frig fights. I fly it like a typical kite fit, knowing im going to get scrammed. The jag will be chased down by many faster ships, what your opponent doesnt realize is your scram fit. They rush in to scram you, only to find scram/web and arty blap to the face. You forget, pvp also involves illusion and clever thinking, not just how to fit a ship. People didnt like my mwd/mse/scram/web jag, and said the same thing to me about it dying to everyone. I killed more with it than i died in it (not counting pussies with griffin/kitsune/falcon alts). Half the time frig fights are so short they dont even realize theyre not pointed. Then when a mwd ceptor or faster frig chases me, assuming im trying to kite, i do the opposite and burn at them, catching them after a couple volleys when theyre already damaged and finishing the job.

Is this ideal? No. Is it fun and different? very much so. Jag does need a pg/cpu buff bad, but get creative and you can get some fun fights.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#31 - 2014-07-03 20:36:12 UTC
Stitch that's a pretty good fitting. It sounds fun. But could you imagine doing that without the web or the MSE? Cause that's what he's advocating for a wolf. Lol

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Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#32 - 2014-07-03 21:17:03 UTC
Well this has devolved into flaming pretty quickly. I've assumed your a FW alt so if what you're doing is working, continue.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#33 - 2014-07-03 21:39:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Garresh wrote:
Stitch that's a pretty good fitting. It sounds fun. But could you imagine doing that without the web or the MSE? Cause that's what he's advocating for a wolf. Lol


Yea im not a fan of arty wolves for that reason. Plus theyre slower and less tanky. Jag is shield so inherently faster while wolf is armor and inherently slower. Wolf is a giant killer, good for killing larger ships. Jag has better range control and is more practical. IMO

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#34 - 2014-07-03 21:40:30 UTC
Not my intent. OP asked for fitting advice and you're giving bad advice to new players, which annoys me. I'm not against lolfits or unorthodox tactics, but you shouldn't design a fitting entirely around an enemy being stupid. Capitalizing on stupidity? That's fine. But being nonfunctional against an opponent who isn't asleep is not good advice. That's the difference between the jag fit Stich posted and your wolf. He gambles on the enemy trying to catch him, them switches to scram kiting which is a viable tactic. Your fit on the other hand is countered by someone hitting the "warp" button or the "orbit" button at 500. MWD scram kiting simply doesn't work without a second propulsion mod or some webs. If you did the exact same thing in a jag I'd have no problem with it. I might take that scramkiter jag for a spin later actually. But to say that wolf is a good fitting in a thread directed towards newer players seeking fitting advice is just awful. That's why I'm flaming you.

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Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#35 - 2014-07-03 22:37:47 UTC
Ok yea.. i looked at that that arty wolf fit. There definite room for improvement. One, no nanos? Wolf is already slow, needs nanos and even od injector to even have a fighting chance. Also.. youre kiting in a wolf that is slow already, and managed to make it slower with that trimark. Arty wolves that work, dont have a tank. Its all about speed and projection.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#36 - 2014-07-05 10:17:28 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Ok yea.. i looked at that that arty wolf fit. There definite room for improvement. One, no nanos? Wolf is already slow, needs nanos and even od injector to even have a fighting chance. Also.. youre kiting in a wolf that is slow already, and managed to make it slower with that trimark. Arty wolves that work, dont have a tank. Its all about speed and projection.


It's all about balance. Know your targets - The EHP of that wolf is higher than more frigs EHP (pretty much the Enyo and Retribution are the only 2 that can comfortably get that EHP without using more than 2 lo-slots). That EHP is significant and still allows you to have 3 open slots for damage/projection.

Fitting a Nano or Overdrive is, again, flavour. The ANP and 1 of the rigs can be changed out. I chose not to drop the EHP by fitting a Nano/OD.

a variation on this would be:

Quote:
[Wolf, Range Brawler]

Internal Force Field Array I
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Overdrive Injector System II

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I

250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
[Empty High slot]

Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Small Projectile Burst Aerator II


Biut if you want to push this into being a kiter then something like more like this would make sense:

Quote:
[Wolf, Range Brawler]

Internal Force Field Array I
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
J5 Prototype Warp Disruptor I

250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile

Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I


But at that point you are trying to do something with the Wolf that it is quite bad at, compared to a retribution or a rail Enyo.
Ni Ka
#37 - 2014-07-05 11:25:41 UTC
This thread is coming on a bit. Thanks for all of the great replies, you've given me a ton to read through :)
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#38 - 2014-07-05 22:52:20 UTC
Mael the issue is that artillery can't track within scram range unless you can sit at like 8km. Scram range arti fits work, but they *have* to have good range control or it is very easy to get under your guns. That wolf fitting has no web and mwd as only prop. Its also slow. If you want to go that route a better avenue for that fitting is 200mm autos with barrage. You can have comparable dos at around 20-22km without sacrificing tracking. Your preferred weapon style doesn't work on this hull. You can either switch to barrage based autos or switch to a jag, but that fit doesn't work.

Your second fit isn't bad but I have a significantly better version somewhere I can post if needed. Overdrives aren't great though because you can easily hold range vs nonmwd ships, while MWD ships will slingshot you. Better to use nanos to compensate for the wolfs poor agility. AFs in general even when relatively fast have some problems with inertia and momentum. The wolf has this issue even more so. Run nanos instead of overdrivea.

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Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#39 - 2014-07-08 00:09:49 UTC
This is why to choose a wolf:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLEowYki8Xg
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2014-07-08 17:46:12 UTC
Doctor Knuckles wrote:
Dato Koppla wrote:
[Wolf, PvP Arty]

Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Co-Processor II

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Warp Disruptor I

280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
[Empty High slot]
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S

Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Small Projectile Ambit Extension II

Pretty much the only Wolf fit you should fly in FW, as mentioned there are too many ab/scram/web brawlers that counter the standard brawling Wolf fit. It's not that fast for a kiter, but the alpha and dps make up for it, you also counter the ab/scram/web brawlers really well and you can hold your own against kiters. I have personally never flown this cause I suck at kiting but I have many friends who do and they do really well with it.

If you're flying in null sec a Wolf with MWD + Scram can be a pretty solid choice though.



On this note, is there any Wolf Guru around that could enlighten me regarding 250mm vs 280 mm arty wolves? I've seen both flown effectively, but in my mind i can't see the reason for the smaller pieces vs the 280s


280mm's are like Tornado's. They don't hit **** if you're moving. You also need PG/CPU support to fit them. 250mm's Wolves can go faster and hit more often.

Me? I swear by the 250mm Wolf.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
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