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Dev blog: Principles of Industry in EVE Online

First post First post First post
Author
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#61 - 2014-07-02 20:45:13 UTC
Dread Nanana wrote:
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Question about inventions since so many people seem to know more about it.

What is up with 1 run T2 BPC result per invention attempt? With no ability to run multiple invention runs at once? Does that mean that if we want to keep producing 6,000 T2 Mods a week or so we'll need to install 8,000 invention jobs instead of 800 and 6,000 manufacturing jobs instead of 600?


The output will be 10 run T2 BPCs. But your invention times, as is, will go up from 1h 15min per invention attempt on a POS, to somewhere between 4h to 14+h for modules...

So if you wish to make 6000 T2 modules a week, you'll need 600 T2 BPCs, requiring about 1200 invention attempts. Since you realistically will only be able to do 10 jobs or so a day, you will only need to have 17 characters doing inventions. and about 8 manufacturing characters. Shocked



Thats not what Im getting on the test servers but I will double check. 10 run t2 bpcs from 1 run t1 bpc invention or maxrun bpcs as it is now?

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

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Dibble Dabble
Capital Assets Inc
#62 - 2014-07-02 20:59:35 UTC
The industry vision you have is shite for those that have spent years developing a simple but effective High Sec infrastructure. This is skills, characters, BPOs, hauling, invention, research, POS,s, trade etc.

The result of your vision is that most of my characters are now inactive, POS's are down, industry mothballed and hardly any inclination to participate in eve other than to use it as a glorified chat channel

The good side is I have a lot of ISK, when I say a lot I mean a **** load. It will last years spinning in stations. I no longer have to do anything other than chat with the few who are left. I also get something back, its called a life so for that I thank you.

I will be around for a while. I have my assets to dispose of which I will wait for the price hike following the dumbest Eve release in a generation. I may come on the boards and take the **** from time to time and if your plans for industry are a success then I will be the 1st to eat humble pie and say so.








Pap Uhotih
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2014-07-02 21:15:20 UTC
The more I understand it the more it seems that the 'plan' is that industrial players have to become nobody cogs in a (single) large null cartel.
I thought the idea was that you could sign up to Eve and you could make your way in the universe and that you had to make choices about how you did that based on what you learnt as you went along - its you vs the universe but of course it'd help if you had some friends. Instead this sort of design essentially forces a decision onto the player as to how they are going to play if they want to go down the industrial route.
The things controlling these characters are notoriously social, give us the tools and we will form groups by ourselves in the ways that we want to. Programmatic solutions to get human beings to be social seems like an insane use of development time and introduces something painfully artificial to the game.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#64 - 2014-07-02 21:19:58 UTC
This sort of dev blog would have been much more useful at the beginning of the process. It would have helped people better frame suggestions if they knew what the end goals were.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Felicity Love
Doomheim
#65 - 2014-07-02 21:37:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Felicity Love
-1

Not much of a blog. Regurgitating what most people already understand, if they've been playing long enough, is a poor commentary all it's own.

Creating an environment that, in essence, sounds like importing "temp workers" -- marvelous game concept.

Bravo, CCP... you've "created" a whole new concept for gaming... please rename the next release "Temps And Temp Agencies".

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )

Talleria Lange
Pheonix Light Industries
#66 - 2014-07-02 21:54:43 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Airi Cho wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Dread Nanana wrote:
As I wrote already on test server feedback, thanks for boosting T2 BPOs and completely nerfing inventions. Nothing says "good at X" than being bad at it once more.

If some of invention people still don't know because you haven't loaded Test server to see, invention attempt times for modules are increased from 2h per attempt to 8-14h per attempt. And T2 production times are cut significantly allowing T2 BPO owners to produce 2+x than they did before and inventions people can basically pound salt.

If CCP killed T2 BPOs, these changes would simply mean high T2 module prices for everyone. Tough, but fair. But no, what we get is T2 BPO owners get their ISK printing machines back.

Cheers...


On the contrary, the overall time (copy+invent+build) for many modules has only increased by a small amount thanks to reduction in copy times and production times alike, and the combined time is actually dramatically decreased on most ships. Combine that with the materials changes that mean that the days of 50%+ cost advantage for T2 BPO holders are over and T2 BPO holders are definitely the ones getting the short end of the stick in Crius, as it should be.



The major difference is:

Your copy slaves may need to do invention too. But they'll probably have most of the skills required already, due to you using them for manufacturing T2 things, right?


(With the complaints we've been drowning in from T2 BPO holders, that suggests they're not seeing things the same way as the Original commenter)


1. you can roughly sustain 4-5 invention toons with 1 copy toon currently on TQ. (at least for modules)
2. skill requirements for building are much lower than for inventions. and getting the other invention toons up to the same level will take a lot of time.
3. the current invention times of 8+h make it impossible for a player with family and such to run 1-2 invention batches to get enough bpc to install build jobs. (assuming you want 10 build jobs per toon)
4. currently on TQ you can react to market fluctuations/manipulations if you have a decent amount of t1 bpcs, which you normally will have after a while. to do the same thing after crius, you would need to have t2 bpc piles. and yes we ruined more than one try of people playing with prices in jita. ;)

from all those points ... only the last one meets the theme they want. you can pile up t2 bpcs in the hope they will become useful again and then you can go in.


Here's the point that refutes every single complaint you're mounting: The changes to invention in Crius are incidental changes resulting from touching industry as a whole, and invention will get its own proper rework afterwards.


Thank you mynna. You have pointed out the one thing a lot of people have yet to figure out. Invention might feel like its getting a nerf right now but Crius is all about production. Invention isn't getting worked on right now, though some of the process of T2 production is being affected.

Any ways about this blog. I like the idea of getting the devs perspective of the changes. There have been some changes I would have liked this perspective before the changes were made (mainly the addition of loot spew). Would love to see more of them in the future.


P.S. Why did I just thank a Goon?
Flay Nardieu
#67 - 2014-07-02 22:17:57 UTC
Having the development path illuminated is a wise decision, particularly when ideas are presented then the implementation.

However IMHO this instance feels more like being told "there, there we hear you... but it is what it is" After witnessing a monkey with a football and realizing it was wrong.
Skalle Pande
Teknisk Forlag
#68 - 2014-07-02 22:25:36 UTC
Quote:
This blog is a bit of an experiment, to see if this kind of blog is a useful addition to our usual feature-heavy ones. If it goes down well, we’ll probably do more, and if you think there are ways we can do it better, please let us know in the comments and we’ll tune future iterations accordingly!

Very useful, very good to get the CCP vision behind all the nerdy changes.

I am looking very much forward to seeing the new industry UI. And to see whether it will in fact be more feasible or less feasible to own and use a highsec POS for research, producion, reprocessing, whatever, than it currently is, for a very small, very casual 2-player corp like ours (yes, I know I could try on the testserver, but I won't, I am spending too much time in this weird universe as it is).

However, I must agree to some extent with the concerns in this post:

Don Aubaris wrote:
Perhaps it has been too long ago for a DEV to remember his early days in Eve.
Does any of them still remember the satisfaction of having that ore refining at that magical 100%.
Yes! Finally. One thing you can do as good as a veteran. A mile-stone in your Eve career.

Gone are those days. Not only is the 100% gone (newbies gonna love that...'what you do you mean it's impossible to get to 100%?') It takes more time to get to the maximum. Time a newbie should/could invest in more useful things.
That you screw with the high-end ores...fine. For everything that is common in high-sec (veldspar, scordite, omber,..) one should be able to get to 100% in an easy way.

Yup. I do in fact clearly remember the exhilaration I felt when I had finally grinded my standing with a NPC corp up to getting me perfect refining. You KNOW when you start your EVE career (or at least you find out very soon) that old toons will be so much better at almost everything. It is important that you can see when you have achieved something, and 100 % is a good deal easier to explain than 56 % or whatever the figure is going to be. I think it makes very good sense not to have perfect reprocessing of manufactured goods, and also in many respects not to have perfect reprocessing of minerals. But I hope you will find a way to reward new players with this feeling of "Now I have achieved, now I am GOOD at this, now I am on my way to being a grown-up here".

Don Aubaris wrote:
As for being 'good' at industry in this new big dynamic world : sometimes things are just static. Instead of lowering the bar for industry you have put it way up. The problem is that one has already need a mastery in understanding all these artificial effects.

How this is inviting to new players is a mystery to me. The idea of having indies hiring mercs to safeguard their system, shows you do not understand (most) indy-players at all.

Agreed. The learning curve is very steep - not so much for simple tech I industry, where the only thing you really have to learn is that you get more ISK just by selling the minerals to old indy toons than you do by producing and marketing stuff yourself. But you can do it anyway and have fun, as long as ISK is not your main goal (and it shouldn't be). But invention, phew. Datacores, inscrutable decryptors, a huge number of skills maxed, the presence of meta more-than-1 modules is advantageous, etc. That would be fine if you were truly doing something extraordinary (like really inventing new stuff), but it is in fact just standard industry procedure, and you just have to have your spreadsheets right and your logistics tuned. I have given up on this so far - it seems too convoluted and looks to require at least a week of concentrated out-of-game reading and spreadsheet-building for me to dig into.

This is where the new UI, hopefully, will bring just a little bit of aid. If it turns out to be the opposite, with teams and all raising the bar even for tech I industry without helping on tech II invention, I will be disappointed. And this is NOT meant as a request to "dumb down the game" - it SHOULD get more an more complicated to produce more and more advanced stuff and do it efficiently. But it should be complicated in-game.

Now, I know and I appreciate that the overall goal of the game is to get more player interaction, in cooperation as well as in fighting, and that the built-in complications are meant to encourage this. That is well for new players who are starting because an older player draws them in through RL friendships. They will have a mentor, they may easily slip into a player corp, find a role, get help with the complexities, move to sov null or whatever, and be on their way in EVE life.

However, we are some that begin our careers without these benefits, drawn in purely from seeing the game mentioned - the B-something-bloodbath perhaps, or some MMO-award given. Those players may come without friends in-game, with a view to making it for themselves, to be the independent frontier settler in space. And that learning curve is very steep too, and very early on you learn NOT to cooperate but to deeply distrust each and everyone you see in space or in local. There MUST be something for these players to do, until they have settled enough to find friends and join or make a player corp. Industry (together with mining, mission running and exploration) is part of that something, up to a limit where cooperation is mandatory in order to be productive. If a new player quits industry because of the complexities, before he gets to the point where he sees the benefits of cooperation, the purpose of it is defeated.
Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
#69 - 2014-07-02 22:35:30 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Gynax Gallenor wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Let's assume that, for the moment, you are correct.
In the meantime, while you direct CCP on the changes to invention, while invention remains as it is, his comments are accurate.

But in reality, we all know that null sec is going to get massive advantages in invention, just as they were given in the manufacturing process, so the whole point becomes moot, unless you are talking null sec industrialist competing with other null sec industrialists.


Here is something I have never understood about your complaints, Dinsdale, why do you have a problem with nullsec being better than highsec?

I have a small industrial base in highsec, but I honestly think that nullsec should have massive advantages over highsec, since it requires that you take and hold the space, and there is always the chance that your territory will be taken out from under you.

Do you not that that in many cases, the balance of highsec is off?



Ummm...no.
Null sec should not be given massive advantages over high sec, or any other area of null sec, in every aspect of the game.
Null has always had better ratting capabilities.

It now going to have insurmountable advantages in all aspects of the game, and with less risk, since the vast majority of the industry is being done in heavily blued null sec areas.


I cant tell you how lame i thought it was that i had to still manufacture in high sec when i lived in null. TBH its one of the reasons i dont live there. There is no reason that null sec shouldnt have some advantages. but i think with that should come some higher sov bills or upgrades needed to maximize this.

Dis we both know what the real problem with null is and thats not industry. Its Super Caps. I say we give null everything it should have but allow supers to be built in low sec. Also low sec should be between high and null as it is higher risk.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#70 - 2014-07-02 23:01:00 UTC
9/10, would read again - or more blogs like it.

Good idea, Greyscale. o7
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#71 - 2014-07-02 23:20:30 UTC
Loved this blog and hope to see more like it!

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

grumpychops
The Farting Unicorns
#72 - 2014-07-02 23:30:48 UTC
Did CCP Greyscale actually say "crafting that one perfect weapon"? WTF, is CCP recruiting from WoW? Next devblog" "Changing Corporations to Guilds"
Sylveria Relden
#73 - 2014-07-03 00:26:34 UTC
Wait, what's this "industry" thing you speak of? You mean, there's more to EVE than people just randomly going around blowing up each other's ships? :P

TL;DR If you didn't read the entire post perhaps you're probably ADHD. (seek help)

Albert Spear
Non scholae sed vitae
#74 - 2014-07-03 00:26:51 UTC
I love the blog it is highly useful to understand the "WHY". Big smile

To a large extent I love the new UI. Some font sizing issues for us old folks with poor eyesight, but otherwise it works for me. Big smile

I find that as a younger toon, not maxed out on skills, that I am looking at putting off any industry for another year or so, I can't compete on prices now. Sad

I will probably focus on mining and selling ore for the next year, since I can't compete on refining either.

I really feel for true noobies, who are not ALTs of existing players. The changes to industry pretty much close the path to solo toons in their first year. But then almost all of the changes that CCP has made in the last two years raise the bar even higher for a new player. Cry

I understand the need to force older toons to keep their skill queues full and to challenge them, but eventually CCP is going to raise the bar so high for new players (again not ALT toons) that they have no choice but to buy a toon or to give up after the trial.

I am the two year point, my light at the end of the tunnel in industry turned out to be an oncoming train. Oh, well the subscription is paid for, we will see what the game is like when it expires.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#75 - 2014-07-03 00:40:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kusum Fawn
I like the idea that Devs will publish what they want to happen for an expansion, I like the idea that Devs will publish what they think should be happening afterwards. I don't like that devs have absolutely no clue that what they are doing is the exact opposite of what they state they want to be doing.

->"Coming into this industry work, we had two main goals. Firstly, industry should be easy to understand. Once you've decided what you want to do, it should be obvious how you do it. The UI should be easier for you to read and easier for you to use, and it should be simple for you to understand the consequences of your actions."

The changed UI on SISI currently is less informative then the old one that popped up to confirm a job. It has all the items (in a less useful format then previously being completely graphical and not as it is needed numerical and labeled) but it doesnt tell you how much you are missing except for a roll over which is impossible to copy and paste somewhere useful for further reference, everything about it (the Industry window) is harder to navigate because its all just bad graphics and not resizeable. Its almost like no one actually does industry at CCP and they thought that graphics would in anyway be easier to understand then labels. generic pictures are never as good as item names and amounts. I prefer the current (TQ) industry popup window because it tells me everything i want to know.
: How many of what item do i need.
: How many of what item am i missing.
The new window doesn't tell me that anywhere.

->"The math is simpler, the factors affecting each job are clear and consistently presented, and every click represents an actual decision to be made."

The math is not simpler then now. there are many more factors involved then previously. and they flux as before they did not. While i am still undecided on whether or not this is a good thing, The above statement is not met by the changes proposed for Cirus.

->"Secondly, industry should be interesting and skillful. You should feel that *you* are "good at industry", rather than just that your character is."
This is already true. The proposed changes make it only that the ingame skills are more important if the player skills arent perfect as well.

-> "And you'll always be asking "am I working in the right place?", but the answer will only rarely be "no, I should move" - because industry works on a slower cycle, and because in teams and player interactions you have the tools to change the answer if you don't like it."

Because it seems that currently none of the correct values are working on SISI this is hard to gauge, if the system cost index really raises costs as much as it seems to then every few weeks the answer will be "yes, its time to move." which while possibly a game play action you want to encourage, is really ****** for anyone actually playing. With the changes for weaker freighters, moving becomes either much riskier or much longer, neither of which are appealing activities in their own right and provide more incentives to simply not manufacture.

-> "This is the world we're trying to create, the industry that New Eden deserves: one where you're in charge, where you're facing a new challenge every day, and where you have all the freedom in the world to decide how to solve it."

This is how to ruin any industry that isnt actively making ships explode. Industry is all about planning and long term goals Short shifts for profit but long term involvement means gathering of resources and researching blueprints for future gains. None of that can be shifted to twitch gameplay.

For the proposed changes, almost nothing in this particular blog is fulfilled, Industry is harder because variables are not explained and costs are variable from system to system and day to day. The industry window is less informative then before, with columns being edged out of the window and no horizontal slider to indicate that columns need to be resized to see them. The large pulsing blueprint bracket is a waste of space and in the window it is completely out of proportion in space used for useability and display of information. There is no way to determine costs before you are actually ready to manufacture for when you are going to manufacture. Invention has become a bit simpler but with the additional changes to bpo's and t2 bpos in particular, invention is going to be less lucrative then previously as the net costs of the t2 bpo line will be far lower then the invented route. While this has always been true, it will become more pronounced in the upcoming changes.

The SIsi Information window for blueprints lacks the basic information that the current show info window has in one tab.
Why was this switched to six independent tabs ? this is less helpful then it was previously and seems to run counter to what you are attempting to accomplish. I have seen almost nothing in the proposed changes that does what you are seemingly looking to do.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Careby
#76 - 2014-07-03 00:47:22 UTC
I have made very few posts about Crius, because I don't enjoy writing negative posts and don't want to sound like a whiner (or whinger, if you're from the old country). Maybe I am just too tired to do the work needed to see the "big picture". At any rate, I don't yet understand exactly what it will mean for me or for the greater economy.

I don't mind wading through a wall of text if it contains some usable information, but if it's just empty words, then what's the point? And why send me to the test server when the thing I'm supposed to test isn't yet working there? And how close to the wire do we need to be before it's appropriate to worry about the amount of time left to get things right, if in fact there is a right, or if there is, if right is really the way things should be.

Ultimately, industry is a competitive activity. Making things easier or harder, or more efficient or less efficient, or more profitable or less profitable for me also has the same effect on my competitors. I hear a lot of complaints about clickfests in EVE, but I'm pretty sure clickfests cut down on competition, even if the devs don't find the activity interesting. So while I am skeptical that I will benefit from change for the sake of change, I can take comfort in knowing we will all be in the same (perhaps leaky) boat. Of course, I'm not in quite the same boat as the T2 BPO owners, and based on the disagreement over exactly who is getting screwed, I don't know if their boat is better or worse than mine. As far as the relative benefits of highsec vs. lowsec vs. nullsec, if things get bad enough where I am, then I guess "I didn't want to live there anyway."

I don't think I'm ranting, but I can see I have written a post like the ones I said I didn't want to write, with very little or no redeeming value. I can't say I'm excited about the upcoming changes. Worst case it will reinforce my belief in timeless pearls of wisdom like "be careful what you wish for." And for you devs, "no good deed goes unpunished".
Terghon Tu
Rockbane Enterprises
#77 - 2014-07-03 01:21:09 UTC
Experimental blog type successful. Feature heavy blogs are great, but I really like seeing a picture of what CCP is aiming for with Industry rather than a list of features that may or may not make sense to me on a larger scale.

I'd love to see a blog like this for all of the major activities like Missions, Exploration, Mining, Faction Warfare, etc.
The Ironfist
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2014-07-03 01:27:20 UTC
No offense but local market in 0.0 due to localized production is not going to happen with the current scope of changes. Local production will only happen when the local building benefits far outwight the import of finished goods from highsec and giving amarr stations 1% production efficiency per upgrade level will not do that. Producing 3% below what highsec and lowsec can do for a investment cost of 60b not sure who you are trying to troll here. The changes to Minmatar stations are nice but the amarr outpost changes are nothing but a joke.
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#79 - 2014-07-03 01:39:41 UTC
Dev blogs like this should be released (or included in the dev blogs explaining) every significant change in EVE... For one, because sometimes I have no idea what the dev's vision behind the changes even is...

Regarding the content of the post, though, having played for almost 3 years and yet never done industry (short of making ammo) I am extremely excited to try out the new system.
Maenth
The Thirteen Provinces
#80 - 2014-07-03 02:07:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Maenth
Sylveria Relden wrote:
Wait, what's this "industry" thing you speak of? You mean, there's more to EVE than people just randomly going around blowing up each other's ships? :P


Yep! There's also the forum-ranting part of the game, where people complain about game changes because they don't like their processes disturbed and can't figure out how to take advantage of the coming changes Lol

Drones. Drones are a means to an end. An end to the ruthless Caldari 'progress' machines. An end to the barbaric 'redemption' proposed by the Amarr. What they see as chaos shall be my perfect order, merely beyond their comprehension.