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Dev blog: Principles of Industry in EVE Online

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Nikita Eyrou
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2014-07-02 17:27:38 UTC
Redbull Spai wrote:
Industry should be a Zero-Alt activity - ie one where having one well skilled character is far superior to having 10 low-skill characters doing it at once. To do this, I have a suggestion.

Introduce skills equivilant to the Retail, Wholesale, Tycoon tree for both manufacturing and invention.

For example, in Research - currently lab operation (x1) gives +1 job and adv lab operation (x8) gives +1 job - instead have lab operation (x1) +1 job/level, 'intermediate' lab operation (x4) +3 jobs per level, adv lab operation (x8) +5 jobs per level, each skill obviously with a rank 5 prerequisite of the previous skill. Manufacturing would similarly have mass production, 'intermediate' mass production, adv. mass production.


I'm almost tempted to say "Psssshhhhhh!" but I won't.
Let CCP solve the player retention issue, then we can purge this "Alt Era" and all the problems it creates.
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#42 - 2014-07-02 17:45:36 UTC
Hmm...

I though the Principle of industry was changing to be the new Isk Sink of eve?...

I mean... You just made 85 changes that will help to sink everything.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#43 - 2014-07-02 17:58:23 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.

5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#44 - 2014-07-02 17:58:43 UTC
-e- sorry, didn't know it got snipped by ISD. Thought the forum ate my post.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#45 - 2014-07-02 18:08:55 UTC
Question about inventions since so many people seem to know more about it.

What is up with 1 run T2 BPC result per invention attempt? With no ability to run multiple invention runs at once? Does that mean that if we want to keep producing 6,000 T2 Mods a week or so we'll need to install 8,000 invention jobs instead of 800 and 6,000 manufacturing jobs instead of 600?

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#46 - 2014-07-02 18:15:10 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
The UI is on SiSi right now, and we're actively soliciting feedback. Go test it, and tell us how you find it :)


Wake me up when you change UI of something actually important to people outside of circle of CSM nerds. Like overview for example. Crius is definitely not release I am looking forward to.

Invalid signature format
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#47 - 2014-07-02 18:15:18 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Question about inventions since so many people seem to know more about it.

What is up with 1 run T2 BPC result per invention attempt? With no ability to run multiple invention runs at once? Does that mean that if we want to keep producing 6,000 T2 Mods a week or so we'll need to install 8,000 invention jobs instead of 800 and 6,000 manufacturing jobs instead of 600?



SiSi is broke

They have answered that one many times. I think someone said they had a fix but would be a few days before it hit SiSi
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#48 - 2014-07-02 18:15:43 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Love how you left out the small part about how easy and simple it is to do industry, and it will be dead easy to calculate the huge losses high sec now faces given the massive advantages null sec has been given.

It does not matter how smart a player is if his null sec competition has an insurmountable advantage in all aspects of the manufacturing process, and soon the invention process.

Yup, the smart industrialists in high sec will soon be making the only economic decision that matters: Get fitted with a null sec yoke, or quit all your industrial accounts.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

You do realize that 0.0 SHOULD have an advantage over high sec. It should have a huge advantage in being able to make stuff cheaper, faster, better, etc.

Why? Because unlike hs 0.0 is controlled by players who should be able to adjust the prices to fit there needs, its riskier operations in null, and it should be more efficient in null.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
0.0 should do things better, more efficiently, and you should be able to earn a crap load more isk then empire. That's kinda the point of null.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2014-07-02 18:18:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Gilbaron
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Gilbaron wrote:
it's a bit sad to see how much potential is lost because of bad corp mechanics.

i really hope that this is one of the next steps in the big eve development plan.


It is :)



<3

pretty much my favorite game designer now Big smile
Gynax Gallenor
Conquering Darkness
#50 - 2014-07-02 18:22:14 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Let's assume that, for the moment, you are correct.
In the meantime, while you direct CCP on the changes to invention, while invention remains as it is, his comments are accurate.

But in reality, we all know that null sec is going to get massive advantages in invention, just as they were given in the manufacturing process, so the whole point becomes moot, unless you are talking null sec industrialist competing with other null sec industrialists.


Here is something I have never understood about your complaints, Dinsdale, why do you have a problem with nullsec being better than highsec?

I have a small industrial base in highsec, but I honestly think that nullsec should have massive advantages over highsec, since it requires that you take and hold the space, and there is always the chance that your territory will be taken out from under you.

Do you not that that in many cases, the balance of highsec is off?

Fly Reckless, cos flying safe is no damn fun!

http://flyreckless.com/newsite/
Dread Nanana
Doomheim
#51 - 2014-07-02 18:29:26 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
Question about inventions since so many people seem to know more about it.

What is up with 1 run T2 BPC result per invention attempt? With no ability to run multiple invention runs at once? Does that mean that if we want to keep producing 6,000 T2 Mods a week or so we'll need to install 8,000 invention jobs instead of 800 and 6,000 manufacturing jobs instead of 600?


The output will be 10 run T2 BPCs. But your invention times, as is, will go up from 1h 15min per invention attempt on a POS, to somewhere between 4h to 14+h for modules...

So if you wish to make 6000 T2 modules a week, you'll need 600 T2 BPCs, requiring about 1200 invention attempts. Since you realistically will only be able to do 10 jobs or so a day, you will only need to have 17 characters doing inventions. and about 8 manufacturing characters. Shocked
Maenth
The Thirteen Provinces
#52 - 2014-07-02 18:36:18 UTC
I liked this dev blog post. It was good to see the grand view expressed clearly and in a whole unifying view, rather than having to have watched the fanfest videos and read all the dev blogs to understand why CCP is changing things the way they are.

Drones. Drones are a means to an end. An end to the ruthless Caldari 'progress' machines. An end to the barbaric 'redemption' proposed by the Amarr. What they see as chaos shall be my perfect order, merely beyond their comprehension.
Maenth
The Thirteen Provinces
#53 - 2014-07-02 18:46:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Maenth
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
The UI is on SiSi right now, and we're actively soliciting feedback. Go test it, and tell us how you find it :)


Wake me up when you change UI of something actually important to people outside of circle of CSM nerds. Like overview for example. Crius is definitely not release I am looking forward to.


I am totally outside of the circle of CSM nerds, and I am REALLY looking forward to the new industry UI (in addition to its functionality) ... do you even Industry? XD

Seriously it can't get here soon enough, so much clicking!! >_<

Drones. Drones are a means to an end. An end to the ruthless Caldari 'progress' machines. An end to the barbaric 'redemption' proposed by the Amarr. What they see as chaos shall be my perfect order, merely beyond their comprehension.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#54 - 2014-07-02 19:18:35 UTC
Dread Nanana wrote:

The output will be 10 run T2 BPCs. But your invention times, as is, will go up from 1h 15min per invention attempt on a POS, to somewhere between 4h to 14+h for modules...

So if you wish to make 6000 T2 modules a week, you'll need 600 T2 BPCs, requiring about 1200 invention attempts. Since you realistically will only be able to do 10 jobs or so a day, you will only need to have 17 characters doing inventions. and about 8 manufacturing characters. Shocked


However, you will only need (assuming 50% success rate for easy maths) 4 T1 BPC's with 300 runs each, or if you want to maximise line use on just the one module for a character, 10 T1 BPC's with 120 runs each. Vs needing 1200 copies with 300 runs each like you currently do to get a max run T2 BPC. So there are massive time savings involved also.

Additionally if you bother reading the thread on this question, job queueing is a strong possibility 'soon'.
Also you are complaining about needing 2 inventing characters for 1 manufacturing character....... Or otherwise known as 1 inventing alt + inventing on the manufacturing character as well to pack out their lines.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#55 - 2014-07-02 19:20:34 UTC
I approve of the overall design of the post. In fact, I'd probably have killed for a truly good one last summer in the lead up to (or aftermath of, even) Odyssey with respect to the overall design goals for exploration.
Omega Tron
Edge Dancers
Pan-Intergalatic Business Community
#56 - 2014-07-02 19:32:06 UTC
Yes, this is the sort of information that I really find very informative. Please do more of this sort of blogging.

Thank you Grayscale

CCP's sand box is EVE Online.  The sand is owned by CCP.  We pay them a monthly fee to throw the sand at each other.  That is all that is here, so move along. Nothing more to be seen.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#57 - 2014-07-02 19:33:02 UTC
Gynax Gallenor wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Let's assume that, for the moment, you are correct.
In the meantime, while you direct CCP on the changes to invention, while invention remains as it is, his comments are accurate.

But in reality, we all know that null sec is going to get massive advantages in invention, just as they were given in the manufacturing process, so the whole point becomes moot, unless you are talking null sec industrialist competing with other null sec industrialists.


Here is something I have never understood about your complaints, Dinsdale, why do you have a problem with nullsec being better than highsec?

I have a small industrial base in highsec, but I honestly think that nullsec should have massive advantages over highsec, since it requires that you take and hold the space, and there is always the chance that your territory will be taken out from under you.

Do you not that that in many cases, the balance of highsec is off?



Ummm...no.
Null sec should not be given massive advantages over high sec, or any other area of null sec, in every aspect of the game.
Null has always had better ratting capabilities.

It now going to have insurmountable advantages in all aspects of the game, and with less risk, since the vast majority of the industry is being done in heavily blued null sec areas.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#58 - 2014-07-02 19:40:55 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Gilbaron wrote:


i really hope that this is one of the next steps in the big eve development plan.


It is :)


Big smile

Love to know what ur thinking, where u want things to go and why, so dev blogs like this are a great read. Also, no doubt in a year or twos time ppl will be asking why things are the way they are and its useful to have things like this to link and quote.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Don Aubaris
#59 - 2014-07-02 19:41:23 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Having a blog explaining the ideas behind a change is good.
Unfortunatly most ideas in it are not good at all. And I find a real justification for the ideas missing.

A new, better UI is ofc Always welcome. But the rest of the ideas...

Perhaps it has been too long ago for a DEV to remember his early days in Eve.
Does any of them still remember the satisfaction of having that ore refining at that magical 100%.
Yes! Finally. One thing you can do as good as a veteran. A mile-stone in your Eve career.

Gone are those days. Not only is the 100% gone (newbies gonna love that...'what you do you mean it's impossible to get to 100%?') It takes more time to get to the maximum. Time a newbie should/could invest in more useful things.
That you screw with the high-end ores...fine. For everything that is common in high-sec (veldspar, scordite, omber,..) one should be able to get to 100% in an easy way.

As for being 'good' at industry in this new big dynamic world : sometimes things are just static. Instead of lowering the bar for industry you have put it way up. The problem is that one has already need a mastery in understanding all these artificial effects.
How this is inviting to new players is a mystery to me. The idea of having indies hiring mercs to safeguard their system, shows you do not understand (most) indy-players at all.

The ME/PE changes are only partly good. It is apparantly still possible to research beyond the point of usuability. It was suggested by someone to make it a percentage (so even a bought one could be already at 100%). *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

What is still missing is a big book of BPO's. A simple list of all available BPO's and which that you (or corps) already have.
People love to collect stuff. So work on it.

You are killing small corpses. Instead of 1 POS that does it all, you now need a specialized POS (or a POS with all the installations if you want to on/off line like crazy I suppose). Anyway : setup costs are sky-rocketing.

But I suppose that 's your vision too : specialization, specialization, specialization,.... up to the point where no one even starts anymore because those that are specialized or old can do it all at a cost that is a fraction of a startup. As any economist knows : legacy advantages must be cut down to ensure a thriving economy with new companies. You are doing the opposit. Giving more and more advantages to the existing null-sec cartels.

What it should/could have been : a clone should only be able to get 1 slot (per type) in high-sec in a NPC-station. The rest should be done in POS's which could be opened to the public (via some POCO-like system). That's player interaction.
Searching for a POS with the lowest cost. Making aggreements with the owner....That's player dynamics.

There are many things that could be improved in Eve. Adding stuff that needs to be improved is really not the way forward.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#60 - 2014-07-02 19:57:42 UTC
To answer Greyscale's question: yes this is the kind of dev blog that we would like to see more often about all of the systems of EVE. And of course for those who love sexy hardware...the state of TQ's hardware would be nice to hear. Heck even a bit of history of TQ and its hardware states up to now would be a nice look at the evolution of EVE from another stand point.

Overall vision is important to us as players as much as it is important to the game designers.