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Dev blog: Principles of Industry in EVE Online

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CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2014-07-02 15:01:53 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
With the Crius release, to be published July 22nd, we will see a major overhaul of Industry in EVE Online. While you can read up on these changes and try some features on the test server, we would like to talk about the principles behind in the Industry in EVE Online.

What is Industry supposed to be, what can you expect, what are the fun key elements and how can you shape, influence and profit from the industry landscape in EVE Online? Read all about this in CCP Greyscale's latest dev blog Principles of Industry in EVE Online!

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-07-02 15:09:32 UTC
Gotta say -- it is very satisfying to hear it said that industry in eve is all about working at scale. This has obviously been true forever, but it doesn't make it any less satisfying to hear.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#3 - 2014-07-02 15:10:12 UTC
\o/

The philosophy behind changes is always good to have public.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2014-07-02 15:15:41 UTC
This devblog was a great idea and I think it'd be worth publishing more of these to get a sense of what devs are trying to do with a system when they make changes: it lets people understand what changes they disagree with are because the dev is going for a fundamentally different vision of how the thing should work, or when you think that you agree but think there are improvements that could be suggested.
Dread Nanana
Doomheim
#5 - 2014-07-02 15:28:33 UTC
As I wrote already on test server feedback, thanks for boosting T2 BPOs and completely nerfing inventions. Nothing says "good at X" than being bad at it once more.

If some of invention people still don't know because you haven't loaded Test server to see, invention attempt times for modules are increased from 2h per attempt to 8-14h per attempt. And T2 production times are cut significantly allowing T2 BPO owners to produce 2+x than they did before and inventions people can basically pound salt.

If CCP killed T2 BPOs, these changes would simply mean high T2 module prices for everyone. Tough, but fair. But no, what we get is T2 BPO owners get their ISK printing machines back.

Cheers...
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2014-07-02 15:29:20 UTC
.... 1000isk rifters?.... please....

.... needs a graph...

No Worries
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-07-02 15:38:55 UTC
Dread Nanana wrote:
As I wrote already on test server feedback, thanks for boosting T2 BPOs and completely nerfing inventions. Nothing says "good at X" than being bad at it once more.

If some of invention people still don't know because you haven't loaded Test server to see, invention attempt times for modules are increased from 2h per attempt to 8-14h per attempt. And T2 production times are cut significantly allowing T2 BPO owners to produce 2+x than they did before and inventions people can basically pound salt.

If CCP killed T2 BPOs, these changes would simply mean high T2 module prices for everyone. Tough, but fair. But no, what we get is T2 BPO owners get their ISK printing machines back.

Cheers...


On the contrary, the overall time (copy+invent+build) for many modules has only increased by a small amount thanks to reduction in copy times and production times alike, and the combined time is actually dramatically decreased on most ships. Combine that with the materials changes that mean that the days of 50%+ cost advantage for T2 BPO holders are over and T2 BPO holders are definitely the ones getting the short end of the stick in Crius, as it should be.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#8 - 2014-07-02 15:43:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
mynnna wrote:
Dread Nanana wrote:
As I wrote already on test server feedback, thanks for boosting T2 BPOs and completely nerfing inventions. Nothing says "good at X" than being bad at it once more.

If some of invention people still don't know because you haven't loaded Test server to see, invention attempt times for modules are increased from 2h per attempt to 8-14h per attempt. And T2 production times are cut significantly allowing T2 BPO owners to produce 2+x than they did before and inventions people can basically pound salt.

If CCP killed T2 BPOs, these changes would simply mean high T2 module prices for everyone. Tough, but fair. But no, what we get is T2 BPO owners get their ISK printing machines back.

Cheers...


On the contrary, the overall time (copy+invent+build) for many modules has only increased by a small amount thanks to reduction in copy times and production times alike, and the combined time is actually dramatically decreased on most ships. Combine that with the materials changes that mean that the days of 50%+ cost advantage for T2 BPO holders are over and T2 BPO holders are definitely the ones getting the short end of the stick in Crius, as it should be.



The major difference is:

Your copy slaves may need to do invention too. But they'll probably have most of the skills required already, due to you using them for manufacturing T2 things, right?


(With the complaints we've been drowning in from T2 BPO holders, that suggests they're not seeing things the same way as the Original commenter)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Lord Echon
Star-Crossed Enterprises
#9 - 2014-07-02 15:45:04 UTC
Yeah, having a devblog like this is a good idea. Explaining your ideas and intentions in broad terms before going heavily into details provides a nice overview.
Javajunky
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-07-02 15:46:54 UTC
+1 for making it interesting.

You were already ok in my book when you shrunk the size of a mining crystal. Blink
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#11 - 2014-07-02 15:51:02 UTC
Love how you left out the small part about how easy and simple it is to do industry, and it will be dead easy to calculate the huge losses high sec now faces given the massive advantages null sec has been given.

It does not matter how smart a player is if his null sec competition has an insurmountable advantage in all aspects of the manufacturing process, and soon the invention process.

Yup, the smart industrialists in high sec will soon be making the only economic decision that matters: Get fitted with a null sec yoke, or quit all your industrial accounts.
Bam Stroker
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#12 - 2014-07-02 15:52:07 UTC
To respond to the last paragraph: I did like the nature of this blog and I look forward to seeing more like it.

Detailed blogs about nuts and bolts changes are obviously crucial but I'd like more of these "big picture" blogs that let us get inside your heads and show us what you're thinking.

EVE Down Under - a community for players in the AUTZ

In-game channel: evedownunder // Twitter: @evedownunder

https://www.facebook.com/evedownunder
Samuel Triptee
Frankenstuff
#13 - 2014-07-02 15:57:58 UTC
An overall look at a developer's goals and philosophy concerning a given part of EVE is very helpful to those of us not directly in that area of gameplay.

The industrialists need the nitty gritty number crunching mechanics of the updated system(s). However, most other players only need to know that something potentially big is happening. We can get a good idea of how and if we will be affected by reading a devblog like this one.

This big picture view helps me make decisions to:

1. Research further for how the changes affect me
2. Research further because it looks like a great style of gameplay to try
3. Do not research further, but know I may have to adapt a bit.


Great idea.. please continue with blogs like this.

Have You Hugged Your Frigate Today?
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-07-02 15:58:25 UTC
Querns wrote:
Gotta say -- it is very satisfying to hear it said that industry in eve is all about working at scale. This has obviously been true forever, but it doesn't make it any less satisfying to hear.


As one of the lucky few who realized this very early on in my industrial/eve career it is amazing to see this happening too. I ditched invention within a matter of weeks of having the skills as it was just too painful. The UI changes alone is like giving entire games worth of industrial content back to those of us who play this way.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#15 - 2014-07-02 15:58:42 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Dread Nanana wrote:
As I wrote already on test server feedback, thanks for boosting T2 BPOs and completely nerfing inventions. Nothing says "good at X" than being bad at it once more.

If some of invention people still don't know because you haven't loaded Test server to see, invention attempt times for modules are increased from 2h per attempt to 8-14h per attempt. And T2 production times are cut significantly allowing T2 BPO owners to produce 2+x than they did before and inventions people can basically pound salt.

If CCP killed T2 BPOs, these changes would simply mean high T2 module prices for everyone. Tough, but fair. But no, what we get is T2 BPO owners get their ISK printing machines back.

Cheers...


On the contrary, the overall time (copy+invent+build) for many modules has only increased by a small amount thanks to reduction in copy times and production times alike, and the combined time is actually dramatically decreased on most ships. Combine that with the materials changes that mean that the days of 50%+ cost advantage for T2 BPO holders are over and T2 BPO holders are definitely the ones getting the short end of the stick in Crius, as it should be.



The major difference is:

Your copy slaves may need to do invention too. But they'll probably have most of the skills required already, due to you using them for manufacturing T2 things, right?


(With the complaints we've been drowning in from T2 BPO holders, that suggests they're not seeing things the same way as the Original commenter)


1. you can roughly sustain 4-5 invention toons with 1 copy toon currently on TQ. (at least for modules)
2. skill requirements for building are much lower than for inventions. and getting the other invention toons up to the same level will take a lot of time.
3. the current invention times of 8+h make it impossible for a player with family and such to run 1-2 invention batches to get enough bpc to install build jobs. (assuming you want 10 build jobs per toon)
4. currently on TQ you can react to market fluctuations/manipulations if you have a decent amount of t1 bpcs, which you normally will have after a while. to do the same thing after crius, you would need to have t2 bpc piles. and yes we ruined more than one try of people playing with prices in jita. ;)

from all those points ... only the last one meets the theme they want. you can pile up t2 bpcs in the hope they will become useful again and then you can go in.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2014-07-02 16:01:16 UTC
Airi Cho wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Dread Nanana wrote:
As I wrote already on test server feedback, thanks for boosting T2 BPOs and completely nerfing inventions. Nothing says "good at X" than being bad at it once more.

If some of invention people still don't know because you haven't loaded Test server to see, invention attempt times for modules are increased from 2h per attempt to 8-14h per attempt. And T2 production times are cut significantly allowing T2 BPO owners to produce 2+x than they did before and inventions people can basically pound salt.

If CCP killed T2 BPOs, these changes would simply mean high T2 module prices for everyone. Tough, but fair. But no, what we get is T2 BPO owners get their ISK printing machines back.

Cheers...


On the contrary, the overall time (copy+invent+build) for many modules has only increased by a small amount thanks to reduction in copy times and production times alike, and the combined time is actually dramatically decreased on most ships. Combine that with the materials changes that mean that the days of 50%+ cost advantage for T2 BPO holders are over and T2 BPO holders are definitely the ones getting the short end of the stick in Crius, as it should be.



The major difference is:

Your copy slaves may need to do invention too. But they'll probably have most of the skills required already, due to you using them for manufacturing T2 things, right?


(With the complaints we've been drowning in from T2 BPO holders, that suggests they're not seeing things the same way as the Original commenter)


1. you can roughly sustain 4-5 invention toons with 1 copy toon currently on TQ. (at least for modules)
2. skill requirements for building are much lower than for inventions. and getting the other invention toons up to the same level will take a lot of time.
3. the current invention times of 8+h make it impossible for a player with family and such to run 1-2 invention batches to get enough bpc to install build jobs. (assuming you want 10 build jobs per toon)
4. currently on TQ you can react to market fluctuations/manipulations if you have a decent amount of t1 bpcs, which you normally will have after a while. to do the same thing after crius, you would need to have t2 bpc piles. and yes we ruined more than one try of people playing with prices in jita. ;)

from all those points ... only the last one meets the theme they want. you can pile up t2 bpcs in the hope they will become useful again and then you can go in.


Here's the point that refutes every single complaint you're mounting: The changes to invention in Crius are incidental changes resulting from touching industry as a whole, and invention will get its own proper rework afterwards.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#17 - 2014-07-02 16:04:10 UTC
Kind of reminds me exploration hype around Odyssey. Easier UI, better transparency about skills and effects... We got click fest + loot vomit + windshield wiper.

Invalid signature format
Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#18 - 2014-07-02 16:04:16 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Here's the point that refutes every single complaint you're mounting: The changes to invention in Crius are incidental changes resulting from touching industry as a whole, and invention will get its own proper rework afterwards.


As suggested in the other thread already ... they could lower the invention times to 33-50% of the currently proposed times.
you would still compensate for the copy time reduction without screwing over the t2 inventions for weeks.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#19 - 2014-07-02 16:05:52 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Airi Cho wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Dread Nanana wrote:
As I wrote already on test server feedback, thanks for boosting T2 BPOs and completely nerfing inventions. Nothing says "good at X" than being bad at it once more.

If some of invention people still don't know because you haven't loaded Test server to see, invention attempt times for modules are increased from 2h per attempt to 8-14h per attempt. And T2 production times are cut significantly allowing T2 BPO owners to produce 2+x than they did before and inventions people can basically pound salt.

If CCP killed T2 BPOs, these changes would simply mean high T2 module prices for everyone. Tough, but fair. But no, what we get is T2 BPO owners get their ISK printing machines back.

Cheers...


On the contrary, the overall time (copy+invent+build) for many modules has only increased by a small amount thanks to reduction in copy times and production times alike, and the combined time is actually dramatically decreased on most ships. Combine that with the materials changes that mean that the days of 50%+ cost advantage for T2 BPO holders are over and T2 BPO holders are definitely the ones getting the short end of the stick in Crius, as it should be.



The major difference is:

Your copy slaves may need to do invention too. But they'll probably have most of the skills required already, due to you using them for manufacturing T2 things, right?


(With the complaints we've been drowning in from T2 BPO holders, that suggests they're not seeing things the same way as the Original commenter)


1. you can roughly sustain 4-5 invention toons with 1 copy toon currently on TQ. (at least for modules)
2. skill requirements for building are much lower than for inventions. and getting the other invention toons up to the same level will take a lot of time.
3. the current invention times of 8+h make it impossible for a player with family and such to run 1-2 invention batches to get enough bpc to install build jobs. (assuming you want 10 build jobs per toon)
4. currently on TQ you can react to market fluctuations/manipulations if you have a decent amount of t1 bpcs, which you normally will have after a while. to do the same thing after crius, you would need to have t2 bpc piles. and yes we ruined more than one try of people playing with prices in jita. ;)

from all those points ... only the last one meets the theme they want. you can pile up t2 bpcs in the hope they will become useful again and then you can go in.


Here's the point that refutes every single complaint you're mounting: The changes to invention in Crius are incidental changes resulting from touching industry as a whole, and invention will get its own proper rework afterwards.


Let's assume that, for the moment, you are correct.
In the meantime, while you direct CCP on the changes to invention, while invention remains as it is, his comments are accurate.

But in reality, we all know that null sec is going to get massive advantages in invention, just as they were given in the manufacturing process, so the whole point becomes moot, unless you are talking null sec industrialist competing with other null sec industrialists.
Kacik Trest
Hypergalactic Holdings Ltd.
#20 - 2014-07-02 16:07:17 UTC
I appreciate the concept behind the creation of this blog; however, unfortunately, I would wager it reads as pure advertising to any player with even a moderate level of experience.


"Firstly, industry should be easy to understand" The concept of industry is easy to understand. Then reality hits the player.


Unfortunately, if a new -ish player were take the above statement as gospel and begin industry, they will learn just hard how it is. That same player may recall this dev blog or other fluff pieces like it and some will likely become disenfranchised and trust the devs as much as bittervets do.

If CCP wants to participate in more advertising that is both fine and probably a good idea since new-player retention rates could really use some help. However, leave advertising to the ad folks. Don't mask it as a dev blog.

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