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While you're complaining about Hisec PI spare a thought...
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Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#61 - 2011-12-04 10:28:26 UTC
FastJack316 wrote:

If you're willing to breakdown what possible advantage there is to having 500 planets over 50 planets to an alliance of any size in your bizzare universe? Because here in reality the game mechanics are that planetary productivity for extraction is so high in 0.0 that there is incredibly minimal negative effects from having hundreds of people doing PI on the same planet, which is why those of us who do PI in 0.0 use the same handful of systems with the best/rarest planetary set ups. If we get another thousand characters doing PI we don't need to conquer another thousand planets, they just use the same ones. (it is also silly to think that we could produce all our own T2 modules with the huge relative disadvantage 0.0 production has compared to hisec, prices would have to absolutely skyrocket to make it sensible, but that's not really on topic)




Because if you read the other parts of the PI change, it's now possible to run more extraction heads per user then it was before due to the increase in bandwidth for transport on planet per level. Not having to upgrade means more power and CPU is available for other uses, meaning that each individual user is going to be able to suck up a greater percentage of the daily output. That minimal effect just got larger.
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
#62 - 2011-12-05 11:55:16 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:


Tasko Pal wrote:
Cygnet, grownups are talking. Fastjack explained quite nicely why null sec PI isn't going to be a windfall for Goons (at least isk-wise, tear-wise might be a different story).


Tasko, fastjack did nothing of the sort. He just sat there and misrepresented what I said, and then tried to dodge the subject by attacking my knowledge of 0.0. You know, the basic way to try an dodge an issue when you know real answers would hang you out to dry? Just counting the systems goons claim sov in doesn't give you the whole picture, which is what I've been talking about. Goons project power far beyond that.

If this wasn't a big moneymaker for them, then goons wouldn't turn up in every thread about it attacking the posters that dislike the current approach. After all, no other alliance is doing so on such a scale and with such diligence, so goons must have an angle. You don't work it this hard without a reason.


Fastjack did just that in his very first post in this thread. Please read this stuff or please shut up. I might add that you may have a clue about 0.0, but when you talked about low sec in another thread, it was pretty clear you didn't have a clue.

And you haven't explained why the Goons have any issues to dodge. If they really wanted as an alliance this PI change, then why wouldn't they say so? There are no consequences to telling the world that they got what they wanted.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2011-12-05 12:03:46 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Because if you read the other parts of the PI change, it's now possible to run more extraction heads per user then it was before due to the increase in bandwidth for transport on planet per level. Not having to upgrade means more power and CPU is available for other uses, meaning that each individual user is going to be able to suck up a greater percentage of the daily output. That minimal effect just got larger.

I don't know what you used it for, but I used it to make the extraction more flexible, i.e. I can move the extraction pin over a wider area of the planet before tearing down everything and starting on the fun process of migrating the entire PI structure group because the hotspot moved.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Bloody Wench
#64 - 2011-12-05 13:04:35 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:


Because if you read the other parts of the PI change, it's now possible to run more extraction heads per user then it was before due to the increase in bandwidth for transport on planet per level. Not having to upgrade means more power and CPU is available for other uses, meaning that each individual user is going to be able to suck up a greater percentage of the daily output. That minimal effect just got larger.



Not in Wh / 00 it doesn't. 1 ECU pulls so much material that there is zero reason to attempt to put another down. You couldn't process it, you just simply can't do it. Mostly I run between 6 and 8 factories just to keep up with 1-10 head ECU that will happily chug along for weeks on end at or about 36-45k an hour.

Your position is that of a purely hisec prospective, and only holds when extraction levels are around 10-12k an hour. As in 2 factories per full 10 head ECU. Outside of Hisec, extraction rates are that you're going to need a mimimum of 6 factories running all the time just to keep up. Using multiple ECU where the extraction rates aren't pathetic just doesn't work.

So the extra link bandwidth will go purely to longer main lines where the operator can then hit better locations just by moving the ECU further from the first storage location. It certainly wont allow for another wasted ECU.

I was giving you a fair bit of leeway with your comments but it's become plainly clear you have no experience outside of Hisec in these matters.

[u]**Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: **[/u]  CCP should not only make local delayed in highsec, but they should also require one be undocked to use it. Then, even the local spammers have some skin in the game. Support a High Resolution Texture Pack
Dragokenshin1
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#65 - 2011-12-05 18:42:29 UTC
People must have personality and character to assume their options!

If you all hate people who live in High Sec, please close it NOW!!!!
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#66 - 2011-12-05 18:54:45 UTC
All the price hikes are simply going to be passed on the the end consumer.

I saw that Hammerhead II's went from around 500,000 to around 600,000 per unit over the weekend. Fun staff.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#67 - 2011-12-06 15:05:01 UTC
Bloody Wench wrote:

Not in Wh / 00 it doesn't. 1 ECU pulls so much material that there is zero reason to attempt to put another down. You couldn't process it, you just simply can't do it. Mostly I run between 6 and 8 factories just to keep up with 1-10 head ECU that will happily chug along for weeks on end at or about 36-45k an hour.

Your position is that of a purely hisec prospective, and only holds when extraction levels are around 10-12k an hour. As in 2 factories per full 10 head ECU. Outside of Hisec, extraction rates are that you're going to need a mimimum of 6 factories running all the time just to keep up. Using multiple ECU where the extraction rates aren't pathetic just doesn't work.

So the extra link bandwidth will go purely to longer main lines where the operator can then hit better locations just by moving the ECU further from the first storage location. It certainly wont allow for another wasted ECU.

I was giving you a fair bit of leeway with your comments but it's become plainly clear you have no experience outside of Hisec in these matters.


Why would you try to do it all on the same world?

What we were doing was using one planet as a factory for every two planets that were extracting. Dump the p0 in a corp hanger array and swap off to a corp mate who has a factory on the same world you're extracting from. This gives you way more then 6-8 factories to work with, and you can throttle production to suit your needs.

Trying to run the whole chain on a single world is only more profitable with high sec PI.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2011-12-06 15:07:31 UTC
Wait, p0?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#69 - 2011-12-06 15:13:00 UTC
Raw extracted materials. In this case, it's more effective to focus the planet entirely on extracting every last drop you can, and then import it into a planet expressly set up to process everything.
Wibla
Tactical Narcotics Team
#70 - 2011-12-06 15:18:01 UTC
Export P0? Did your mom drop you on your head as a baby?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2011-12-06 15:18:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Yes, I know p0 are the raw materials, but that's a pretty dumb thing to do, post PI update doubly so.

I was actually just thinking "well, this explains a few things", I just needed confirmation.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#72 - 2011-12-06 15:29:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Cygnet Lythanea
*shakes head* Stop and use your brain, if you're paying 0 for it, it makes sense, because it lets you process even more materials then you could previously.

Admittedly, it does require a team to do it, but, hey, you guys have been screaming how important teamwork is.

Two guys do nothing but extract while the third manages build orders. Sort of like two barges and an orca.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2011-12-06 15:46:09 UTC
So what you're saying is, you're extracting as much p0 as you can, extracting and paying tax on that, hauling that to factory planets, importing and paying tax on that, then going how far up the chain?

Have you done the math on what you're paying in taxes? Because from my napkin math, what you're doing when exporting p0 is paying 1500 isk to export enough p0 to make 20 p1, and then you're importing that at 750 isk pr unit, giving a cost of 2250 isk pr 20 units of p1 that you make. Compare that to what you'd get if you export p1, where 20 units of p1 would cost you 1000 isk. This is all assuming you're doing this in hisec.

Add to that the fact that you're also ending up having to do exports at least once a day, vs once every 4 days or so with p1, and I've no problem with seeing why you're so up in arms over the PI changes, you're literally doing it the worst way imaginable.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Ninyania alCladdyth
McLuvin AstroDynamics
#74 - 2011-12-06 16:07:44 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
So what you're saying is, you're extracting as much p0 as you can, extracting and paying tax on that, hauling that to factory planets, importing and paying tax on that, then going how far up the chain?


Underlined the misunderstanding - if she owns the POCO(s), she pays ZERO tax on export/import. In that case, strip-mining and exporting the raw resources makes sense.
Ninyania alCladdyth
McLuvin AstroDynamics
#75 - 2011-12-06 16:08:02 UTC
yay, d00bllep0st
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#76 - 2011-12-06 18:46:07 UTC
Ninyania alCladdyth wrote:

Underlined the misunderstanding - if she owns the POCO(s), she pays ZERO tax on export/import. In that case, strip-mining and exporting the raw resources makes sense.


Well, other then the issue that you're spending a lot more time hauling due to the sheer bulk of P0 over P1.

One batch of P0 is 30 m3, which turns into 7.6 m3 when processed into P1. Almost a 4x reduction in volume.

Would you rather haul daily? Or would you prefer to only haul ever 4 days?
Ninyania alCladdyth
McLuvin AstroDynamics
#77 - 2011-12-06 18:59:17 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
[Would you rather haul daily? Or would you prefer to only haul ever 4 days?

Completely different question.

I was simply speaking to the "insane amount of excise tax" that would/would not be paid, not the "insane amount of manual labor" that would be required.
Hundo Kay
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#78 - 2011-12-06 18:59:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Hundo Kay
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
*shakes head* Stop and use your brain, if you're paying 0 for it, it makes sense, because it lets you process even more materials then you could previously.

Admittedly, it does require a team to do it, but, hey, you guys have been screaming how important teamwork is.

Two guys do nothing but extract while the third manages build orders. Sort of like two barges and an orca.


A "typical" extraction planet would be 1 ECU, 10 Ext Heads, 8 or 9 Basic Factories and launchpad?

So over 3 planets you end up with 24-27 factories and 3 ECU with 10 heads each.

Your idea is to get 4 ECU on 2 planets as "strip miners" then somehow transfer that huge wad of raw materials to a third planet with 22 Basic Factories?

Looks like a formula for excess P0 and Less P1 in the long run to me, as well as a lot more logistics work.

Additionally, a decent spot will fill a launchpad in under 24 hours, requiring way more intervention to properly maintain the system.

So

More P0 - check
More P1 - nope
More Labor - check
More Intervention - check

Looks like a losing idea to me.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2011-12-06 19:14:47 UTC
Ninyania alCladdyth wrote:
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
[Would you rather haul daily? Or would you prefer to only haul ever 4 days?

Completely different question.

I was simply speaking to the "insane amount of excise tax" that would/would not be paid, not the "insane amount of manual labor" that would be required.

Well, the excess tax was just the easiest to look at, if he's actually in lowsec or nullsec with their own POCO, then we're still left with the insane amount of hauling that this setup requires, and they're apparently effectively dedicating one char to do the actual manufacturing process, instead of having him extract as well. It's been a long while since I did try out the whole factory planet thing in hisec, starting with p0. Turned out it was literally a fucktonne of work for very little return.

As to the typical extraction planet, I used to do 1 ECU, 10 extraction heads, 1 storage pin, one launch pad and as many basic factories as I could shoehorn in. Now that I'm doing p0 to p2 as a test, I'm doing 2 ECUs with 3-5 heads each, 1 storage pin, 3-4 basic and 3-4 advanced, and 1 launchpad. I'm sacrificing some efficiency to separate the p0 from p1/p2. In fact, I'm contemplating making the storage pad a launchpad just for the 10k m3 storage, but I'm evaluating the need for storage capacity vs how quickly the extractors go below the basic factories' appetite before I reset them.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Hundo Kay
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#80 - 2011-12-06 19:42:31 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Ninyania alCladdyth wrote:
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
[Would you rather haul daily? Or would you prefer to only haul ever 4 days?

Completely different question.

I was simply speaking to the "insane amount of excise tax" that would/would not be paid, not the "insane amount of manual labor" that would be required.

Well, the excess tax was just the easiest to look at, if he's actually in lowsec or nullsec with their own POCO, then we're still left with the insane amount of hauling that this setup requires, and they're apparently effectively dedicating one char to do the actual manufacturing process, instead of having him extract as well. It's been a long while since I did try out the whole factory planet thing in hisec, starting with p0. Turned out it was literally a fucktonne of work for very little return.

As to the typical extraction planet, I used to do 1 ECU, 10 extraction heads, 1 storage pin, one launch pad and as many basic factories as I could shoehorn in. Now that I'm doing p0 to p2 as a test, I'm doing 2 ECUs with 3-5 heads each, 1 storage pin, 3-4 basic and 3-4 advanced, and 1 launchpad. I'm sacrificing some efficiency to separate the p0 from p1/p2. In fact, I'm contemplating making the storage pad a launchpad just for the 10k m3 storage, but I'm evaluating the need for storage capacity vs how quickly the extractors go below the basic factories' appetite before I reset them.


With CPU usually being rather abundant on extraction planets, a LP is almost always preferable to a SF.