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Does E=MC^2 Exist Prior To The Big Bang?

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DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#1 - 2014-07-01 23:56:41 UTC
Einstein said that nothing could travel faster than the speed of light. I say that his theory is incomplete. First off nothing in space is an absolute velocity of infinity as nothing which space is cannot be effected upon nor effect upon any particle, even the God Particle that is within the realm of space.

With that in mind lets go back before the Big Bang took place in our region of space. There was nothing which space is. In this space there would not have been any suns or black holes that create a light photon and effect the light photon. The sun which gives the light photon its velocity of light speed and its birth and the black hole which is the only known celestial body that effects a light photon and brings the photon its death. Both celestial bodies being of the same source, the sun. The sun and black hole both emit gravity that effects the velocity of the light photon and like Einstein said that faster that you approach the speed of light the more energy it takes to continue to accelerate because of the immense gravitational pull of both the sun and black hole. But with both of these gravity creating celestial bodies not being present prior to the Big Bang then the limiting factor that would keep a ship from traveling faster than the speed of light would not be present because the gravity of both bodies would not be present.

What this means if there was a way to negate the effects of gravity on the atoms of a starship hull then the ship could slip into actuall space like I mentioned above where the gravity from a sun or black hole would not be present.

That possible way could come in the form of the Higgs-Boson which is thought of as being the particle that is involve with actually giving particles passing through it their atomic weight which would then cause them to attribute energetic properties that would then combine to create the Big Bang.

Since the Higgs-Boson is thought to give particles passing through it their atomic weight then there would have to be some sort of Higgs-Boson gravity at work similar to how the sun and black hole effect a light photon. If the Higgs-Boson could be engineered to keep particle from receiving their atomic weight only for the smallest amount of time possible but still able to retain atomic cohesion to keep the ship's hull from from flying apart then the ship would be able to enter space that was present before the Big Bang occured where since the limiting factor of a sun and black holes gravity would not be present to effect the atom's of the ships hull then the ship travel faster than the speed of light.

When the ship wanted to exist light speed the Higgs-Boson would be controlled to slowly add particles to the hull particles so that weight is added to the ship as the particle gain more mass thus causing the ship to slow down.

So does E=MC^2 exist prior to the Big Bang? How can it? The two celestial bodies governing E=MC^2 would not have been present....all that matters is what you've done.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2014-07-02 00:36:45 UTC
Everything existed in an infinity small speck surrounded by a never ending nothing. The universe was born when this speck of everything hit the single most solid object in all of existence.
Nose' Feliciano
#3 - 2014-07-02 00:54:14 UTC
The speed oflight is a barrier. Sub light particles cannot exceed it, however there are particles that can exist only if they are traveling equal to or greater than light.
Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2014-07-02 07:01:34 UTC
Woah .. that's one jumbled-up piece of wrong understandings if I've ever seen one XD
Or a really great troll, I guess. I'll bite.

  • Black holes are not the only known celestial body which affect photons and cause their death. EVERY body affects light through gravity, if only in miniscule and negligible amounts if not of stellar or higher masses, and photons get absorbed all over the place. You are absorbing, thus "causing the death" of, photons all the time..

  • Gravitational pull is not the reason for the light speed barrier/the increased energy need for accelleration towards it. If it was, then the speed of light would be lower near gravity wells, or at least it would require more energy to accellerate to relativistic speeds there.

  • It's not just "suns" and "black holes" that exert gravitational pull. All mass does. Around the time of the big bang there was a lot, and I mean an incredibly unimaginable to the power of really really high amount of higher density of matter, which means a lot higher gravitational forces, and not the absence of them.

  • It's not even clear there was any sort of existence before the big bang, or, indeed if there was a "before" at all. Time could have been created by the big bang as well as space (so there might not be an "outside" either)

  • In the higgs field theory it's not the higgs-boson giving particles mass by passing through them, it's the higgs-field giving particles mass by them interacting with it. It's also much more fundamental than about "atomic weight", that wording suggests you are only talking about atoms.

  • Gravity comes from mass, mass is thought, in some theories, to come from the higgs-field. There is no "special Higgs-Boson gravity". And even if you could "engineer" something to negate all mass, thus all gravitational forces, aside from most likely destroying the structure of the universe as we know it, if you keep it up for long enough, you still wouldn't be able to exceed the speed of light.

  • The concept of a "higgs-boson adding particles to the ship's hull" is just.. so absurd.. I don't even know what to say to that. Even if all of the above would work (I cringed a bit writing this. xD), why not simply stop negating all mass, so the ship itself would get massive again, instead of "adding particles"?

What existed before the big bang?
Xenuria
#5 - 2014-07-06 22:06:51 UTC
Let me break this down for you.

Our entire world is a system and all the things within are subject to the laws of the system.
E=MC^2 exists as a concept made by humans and did not exist as it does now before the big bang.

The big bang occurred inside the system of our world and lead instrumentally to this conversation.
Nothing we are capable of understanding existed before the big bang as it is the very first "Origin Point" in our entire time line.
It can be argued that this big bang happened many times before causing different eventualities but this is misleading.
IF there are many or infinate alternate realities then it stands to reason that all of them had the exact same Origin Point as our own, the only deviation possible occurs after the Origin Point.

The potential for deviation grows exponentially after the OP.


So no, the answer to your question is no.
Don't ponder these things.
Mudkest
Contagious Goat Labs
#6 - 2014-07-07 17:59:22 UTC
I've heard of it before September 24th 2007.


On a more serious, and related note, some other theory I heard about suggested that C might not be constant. Cant remember who thought it up, and why or when or how but iirc it had something to do with the universe not being able to expand at the rate it was supposed to expand without matter exceeding the speed of light, so that had to be higher.

then again I might ahve misunderstood it, or it got explained wrongly in an attempt to make that stuff easier to understand for dummies like me Cool
Slade Trillgon
Brutor Force Federated
#7 - 2014-07-07 22:55:36 UTC
Just watched a documentary with Hawkins last night so I find this thread mildly ironic. I can not comment as it is all over my head Bear
Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-07-07 23:01:05 UTC
Mudkest wrote:
I've heard of it before September 24th 2007.


On a more serious, and related note, some other theory I heard about suggested that C might not be constant. Cant remember who thought it up, and why or when or how but iirc it had something to do with the universe not being able to expand at the rate it was supposed to expand without matter exceeding the speed of light, so that had to be higher.

then again I might ahve misunderstood it, or it got explained wrongly in an attempt to make that stuff easier to understand for dummies like me Cool

I think it's that c, meaning the "limit" speed of things moving through space, is constant. But space itself is expanding, and that's not limited by c, and some observations about structures in our universe fit very well with an "abnormally" fast expanding universe directly after the big bang. for a very short time.

I'm getting confused by this myself, so take this with a grain of salt xD
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#9 - 2014-07-12 05:06:31 UTC
And then we come to the quantum realm where all the current theories about the large don't work anymore, since it works by it's own set of rules and with it comes the attempt of a unified theory that works for both the very large and the very small, well good luck on that....
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-07-12 16:03:14 UTC
DrysonBennington wrote:
So does E=MC^2 exist prior to the Big Bang? How can it? The two celestial bodies governing E=MC^2 would not have been present....all that matters is what you've done.
E^2=(mc^2)^2+(pc)^2 would have been present before the Big Bang. E=mc^2 is incomplete but it works almost exactly right for most things we would be observing and measuring.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Snagletooth Johnson
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-07-12 17:14:09 UTC
Does E=MC^2 Exist Prior To The Big Bang?
No, not really.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
When Fleets Collide
#12 - 2014-07-12 17:24:17 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
DrysonBennington wrote:
So does E=MC^2 exist prior to the Big Bang? How can it? The two celestial bodies governing E=MC^2 would not have been present....all that matters is what you've done.
E^2=(mc^2)^2+(pc)^2 would have been present before the Big Bang. E=mc^2 is incomplete but it works almost exactly right for most things we would be observing and measuring.


And herein lies the problem aka "If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, does it make any sound?".
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#13 - 2014-07-13 19:51:10 UTC  |  Edited by: DrysonBennington
And herein lies the problem aka "If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, does it make any sound?".

Rather irrelevant for the simple matter of fact that even if humans are not present to witness the tree falling the tree still makes a sound as it falls and when it hits the ground.

Human observation is not required for sound to take place.

E^2=(mc^2)^2+(pc)^2 would have been present before the Big Bang. E=mc^2 is incomplete but it works almost exactly right for most things we would be observing and measuring.

No this formula is wrong because you are using a base of formula that has been developed around a sun and a black hole as well as other celestial bodies being present that would effect the velocity of the light photon or the existence of the light photon.

Prior to the Big Bang there would not have been any suns, black holes or any other celestial bodies to effect the velocity of a light photon nor absorb the light photon as well.

E^2=(mc^2)^2+(pc)^2 is not possible because it deals with gravity produced by celestial bodies that would not have been present until after the Big Bang occurred.

space itself is expanding It's not possible for space to expand as space is not a particle and therefore does not effect upon particles nor cane be effect upon by particles creating an energetic release of energy.

Only particles and atoms can effect upon each other to create an energetic release of energy.

Think of space as a piece of drawing paper. Nothing happens until you begin to draw on it where the expansion of thought and time expand across the surface of the paper. The paper however would remain in the same state for all time neither coming nor going but just being...paper.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
When Fleets Collide
#14 - 2014-07-13 20:13:51 UTC
DrysonBennington wrote:
And herein lies the problem aka "If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, does it make any sound?".

Rather irrelevant for the simple matter of fact that even if humans are not present to witness the tree falling the tree still makes a sound as it falls and when it hits the ground.

Human observation is not required for sound to take place.


Humans aren't the only ones that possess an auditory perception of their surroundings.

DrysonBennington wrote:
E^2=(mc^2)^2+(pc)^2 would have been present before the Big Bang. E=mc^2 is incomplete but it works almost exactly right for most things we would be observing and measuring.

No this formula is wrong because you are using a base of formula that has been developed around a sun and a black hole as well as other celestial bodies being present that would effect the velocity of the light photon or the existence of the light photon.

Prior to the Big Bang there would not have been any suns, black holes or any other celestial bodies to effect the velocity of a light photon nor absorb the light photon as well.

E^2=(mc^2)^2+(pc)^2 is not possible because it deals with gravity produced by celestial bodies that would not have been present until after the Big Bang occurred.


Presumably, matter was extremely condensed when the big bag transpired, I suppose that would be enough to have a gravitational pull well after the occurence.

DrysonBennington wrote:
space itself is expanding It's not possible for space to expand as space is not a particle and therefore does not effect upon particles nor cane be effect upon by particles creating an energetic release of energy.

Only particles and atoms can effect upon each other to create an energetic release of energy.

Think of space as a piece of drawing paper. Nothing happens until you begin to draw on it where the expansion of thought and time expand across the surface of the paper. The paper however would remain in the same state for all time neither coming nor going but just being...paper.


And what happens when you run out of paper?
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#15 - 2014-07-13 20:27:16 UTC
And what happens when you run out of paper?

You flip the paper over and draw on the other side. Once complete you make a tube of the dual sided drawing to reveal the true master piece at hand as the image spirals through infinity.

Did I ever tell you about my Genesian Sphere Creation Theory that proves that the Universe is infinite?

This is still a working theory - The big bang was not an expansion of space but an expansion of compressed matter.

This is the theoretical that I have been working on as it is relates to gravitons and geometric shapes.

My theory involves geometric shapes. If we take all of the geometric shapes known to geometry and place then so that their perpendicular surfaces touch, we can see that any straight edged object such a square, triangle or rectangle cannot create time, but can be used as a frame of reference to contain an area of space to analyze. The only geometric shape that does not occupy all of space in the manner of being a straight edged object is the sphere. I drew two circles that were tangent to one another, then I noticed something wonderful happening, time in the shape of an hour glass began to appear at the exact center of the two points of tangency. I then went even further and drew two more circles of the same diameter along the horizontal plane of tangency. I then shaded in the two non-tangent voids created by the four circles and found that the hour glass of time was complete. Or so I had thought, I then interjected my theory of what time is based not on general notion of specialty but on specifics of reality. Maybe this can be coined as specific relativity, any way let Webster's do the coining, my theory on what time is that time is the measurable distance an atom or atoms travel within a medium based upon the energetic properties of the atom or atoms contained within the medium and how the energetic properties of the atom or atoms exert a force against the medium while at the same time the energetic properties of the medium exerting a force back upon the atom or atom(s) within the same medium. In short time is a measurable distance that an energetic body travels based upon it's exertion of force upon another energetic body and how the two interactions create a distance of measurable travel between theirself.

Next I added a graviton into the circle and assumed that when two or more gravitons are equal in diameter as well as gravitational attraction that they would attract to each other. I then started adding in other gravitons of the same diameter as well as gravitational attraction and realized that when you have at least four graviton's that are tangent to one another they form a single unit of two dimensional time. I then added two more circles into the geomatrix construct and realized that when you have six tangent circles that represent gravitons that they form a non-tangent void in the center of their tangencies. Next came the fun part, I added that when six tangent spheres are attracted to one another and form a tangent geomatrix construct in space that they will compress the atoms within the non-tangent void. This means that any attempt by the atoms to escape while being compresses in the geomatrix construct is blocked on all tangent sides. Now comes the really fun part. The initial two circles that are tangent to each other at one point will have the greatest amount of compression at their tangency. This means that at their exact center of tangency is where the center of a galaxy would theoretically begin "Let there be light". This would only be possible if all six gravitons were attracted to one another at the exact same point of interest between their gravitational attraction in order to contain the atoms in a localized space. The center of the geomatrix construct at the point of central tangency between the initial two circles would compress the atoms in space to the point of causing the atoms to occupy the same space as one another thus causing an extreme amount of energetic release that would travel at faster then light speed velocities. As this energetic wave or released energy traveled out at faster then the speed of light, the atoms that were the closest to the central tangency point of creation but were outside of the central point of tangency or the point at which the gravitons became non-tangent would be forced outward away from the central point of creation.

This is the point at which a galaxy would be at it's most chaotic

Now since all of the gravitons are tangent at this point, the extreme release of energy at the central point of creation would force the atoms into the other non-central point's of creation, or the remaining fourteen points of tangency. As this energy begin to build mass inside of the non-tangent void due to the compression of the atoms in the void creating more gravitational energies, the six gravitons would begin to be repelled or pushed away because of the increase of mass being created in the non-tangent void. The newly created mass would exert more force on the gravitons then the gravitons would be able to exert on each other through their gravitational attraction and would begin to lose their ability to form the geomatrix construct. As the gravitons are forced farther apart they will pull some of the matter with them from the non-tangent void as a result of the release of energy occupying the space left behind by the graviton. Any matter that was not compressed into suns or other objects that would over time evolve into planets and other celestial objects would be what is called dark matter, or the gravitational energy left behind during the initial creation that was pressed against the circumference of the six tangent gravitons.

Although this can be proven using basic engineering circle templates as well as three dimensional graphics programs, until the graviton has been proven it should only be considered a theoretical.
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#16 - 2014-07-13 20:29:47 UTC
Once you have drawn the above geomatrix and have a little but of understanding about parallel lines, arcs, chords, etc. You will be able to see that this theory will allow you to create anything and everything possibly imaginable thus proving that this can lead to infinity as it can be used to creatively draw anything.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2014-07-14 09:34:44 UTC
DrysonBennington wrote:
It's not possible for space to expand



Think of space as a piece of drawing paper. Nothing happens until you begin to draw on it where the expansion of thought and time expand across the surface of the paper. The paper however would remain in the same state for all time neither coming nor going but just being...paper.
No, the paper is expanding.

Space is expanding, this has been extensively tested and demonstrated. The Hubble Constant is the rate of expansion of space and it has been measured to a high level of precision.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#18 - 2014-07-14 11:47:05 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
DrysonBennington wrote:
It's not possible for space to expand



Think of space as a piece of drawing paper. Nothing happens until you begin to draw on it where the expansion of thought and time expand across the surface of the paper. The paper however would remain in the same state for all time neither coming nor going but just being...paper.
No, the paper is expanding.

Space is expanding, this has been extensively tested and demonstrated. The Hubble Constant is the rate of expansion of space and it has been measured to a high level of precision.


In addition to that, gravity is actually bending space, at least according to general relativity.
So if things move on the paper, they actively change its shape, too.
Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#19 - 2014-07-14 12:44:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Riyria Twinpeaks
DrysonBennington wrote:
And what happens when you run out of paper?

[geometric shape stuff]


Basically you are drawing pictures and naming the resulting shapes and then say "and that's why objects cannot create time" and other things.

To be honest, your ideas sound more like art than like science to me, and I don't see any connection between what you do and what you infer from the results of your doing.

This may be a language issue, or I am too dumb to understand, or you are not explaining well enough.

Please try to structure your texts in smaller units and try to finish a single train of thought before you are jumping to the next one.

Examples of why it is hard to understand what you are saying:

  • What means "all of the geometric shapes known to geometry"? All platonic solids? But why do you mention a sphere then? Or do you mean all possible shapes made from arbitrary numbers of straight edges of arbitrary length? There is an infinite amount of those. And still the sphere doesn't fit in as there are no straight edges. So if you include a sphere, why not include other non-straight-edged solids?
  • Why do you conclude the area delimited by your four circles represents time, other than that it vaguely resembles an hourglass in shape?
  • If your definition of time requires a medium and a drag force, does that mean there is no time in a vacuum or for particles while they don't interact with other particles, for example neutrinos who travel through most matter with a very very very low chance of interacting with anything?


And this is only the beginning.
I'm cutting you a lot of slack here I think, as it's easy to understand your writing as the rambling of a madman. No offense intended.
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#20 - 2014-07-18 00:11:00 UTC
Another very important factor that must be added into E=MC^2 not being a Universal constant prior to the Big Bang is the afterlife.

A co-worker, who studies theology, and I were discussing ghost's and other apparitions today at work. We talked about what I had seen and what he knew related to ghost's. We got on the subject of how people see them from time to time but shows like Ghosthunter on SyFy never seem to capture any proof other than what are called orbs.

Now we know that life forms and plants absorbed light all the time and therefore reflect that light back out through the release of energy that the eyes can see and the brain then translates into a visible object.

Once a person passes on the energy in their body remains and slowly dissipates over several weeks. Perhaps the residual energy is collected within Dark Energy that since it is not effected by gravity but does in fact hold the key to our seeds prior to Big Bang that were released after the Big Bang retains something of our persona where the spirit inside of the Dark Energy stream is able to use Dark Energy to coalesce into a form that we can see in our dreams and waking dreams as well as appearing as orbs and the occasional black post in photographs that appear shortly after a loved one has passed on.

If ghosts existed in the same realm that we do then they would absorb light in the same manner that we do therefore allowing us to see them more often as well as being able to capture them on camera.

Light that we can see functions in a gravitated environment where light is effected by gravity. But in an environment where there is no gravity that is created by a sun, blackhole or other celestial body but where energy still exists could be the explanation behind why we can see ghosts in a waking dream. In the ethereal world beyond our gravitated environment energy would function differently much the same as dark matter or dark energy does. We know its there but it is very difficult to test for. Dark Energy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_energy permeates all of space. This means that it flows through everything. Even our bodies. Perhaps when conditions the correct conditions exist and Dark Energy, which is not effected by gravity because it was present before gravity existed, could have carried the seeds of our life in its energy because we come from the Universe and prior to the Big Bang would have been part of the creation process.

Once a person passes on the energy in their body remains and slowly dissipates over several weeks. Perhaps the residual energy is collected within Dark Energy that since it is not effected by gravity but does in fact hold the key to our seeds prior to Big Bang that were released after the Big Bang retains something of our persona where the spirit inside of the Dark Energy stream is able to use Dark Energy to coalesce into a form that we can see in our dreams and waking dreams as well as appearing as orbs and the occasional black post in photographs that appear shortly after a loved one has passed on. Proving that E=MC^2 did not exist prior to the Big Bang is a big boost to religious philosophies relating to the afterlife. If Dark Energy travels faster than the speed of light then it would be able to carry our 'soul' away from other forms of energy that would otherwise devour it and never allow it to roam the Universe to find its way into a living seed of energy again.
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