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DUST and FW

Author
Epikurus
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2014-06-30 12:56:28 UTC
I was having a look at the stats on dotlan today and paid attention to the global DUST stats for the first time. Only 3 systems have a positive score for CalMil while 52 have a Gallente advantage. Averaged across all Caldari held systems (including those with no score) Dust gives the Gallente a 5.71% victory point advantage while the average across all Gal systems is a 3.7% Gallente advantage. Across the warzone, then, CalMil has to do an average of 9.4% more work to take any Gal system than the Gal's have to do to take a Caldari system.

A couple of questions:

1) Is this the normal state of affairs or was my first real look at the global figures on an unrepresentative day?

2) Is there anything at all, other than orbital bombardments, that eve players can do to affect these figures or are they entirely dependent on factors that are completely detached from our game?
ALUCARD 1208
Naga's Be Trippin
#2 - 2014-06-30 14:00:41 UTC  |  Edited by: ALUCARD 1208
Epikurus wrote:


2) Is there anything at all, other than orbital bombardments, that eve players can do to affect these figures or are they entirely dependent on factors that are completely detached from our game?


This

and from what i hear gallente dust bunnies getter a better choice of kit so more people go for them
Epikurus
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2014-06-30 14:04:22 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
Epikurus wrote:


2) Is there anything at all, other than orbital bombardments, that eve players can do to affect these figures or are they entirely dependent on factors that are completely detached from our game?



This


That's a bit crap since, potentially, DUST could create a pretty much insurmountable barrier for one side.

Is there anything that can be done at the DUST end if they coordinate with eve corps? Last I heard the contracts were procedurally generated but not sure if this is still true.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#4 - 2014-06-30 14:56:08 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
IMO, DUST is pretty irrelevant with the exception of screwing one side over when bashing an IHUB (it goes invulnerable when your side is about half way through - pissing everybody off).

Epikurus wrote:

That's a bit crap since, potentially, DUST could create a pretty much insurmountable barrier for one side.
It doesn't. All DUST does is:
1) Make it take longer to take a system you have targeted,
2) Allow your offensive plex farming to continue for a longer period of time.

Quote:

Is there anything that can be done at the DUST end if they coordinate with eve corps? Last I heard the contracts were procedurally generated but not sure if this is still true.

Shared intel channels, etc...
Epikurus
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2014-06-30 15:00:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Epikurus
X Gallentius wrote:
IMO, DUST is pretty irrelevant with the exception of screwing one side over when bashing an IHUB (it goes invulnerable when your side is about half way through - pissing everybody off).

Epikurus wrote:

That's a bit crap since, potentially, DUST could create a pretty much insurmountable barrier for one side.
It doesn't. All DUST does is:
1) Make it take longer to take a system you have targeted,



You make it sound as if this is nothing ...

Making it take less time for one side and more time for the other side is equivalent to giving one side a bunch of free plex victories. Giving one side a 10% advantage over the other, and potentially anything up to a 50% advantage, seems like a pretty poor mechanism if there is nothing we can do about it

Quote:

Quote:

Is there anything that can be done at the DUST end if they coordinate with eve corps? Last I heard the contracts were procedurally generated but not sure if this is still true.
Shared intel channels, etc...


But my question is, are shared intel channels any use for anything if strategic coordination is impossible? Can the DUSTies choose which systems they target or is that done mechanically?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#6 - 2014-06-30 15:17:02 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Epikurus wrote:

You make it sound as if this is nothing ...

Making it take less time for one side and more time for the other side is equivalent to giving one side a bunch of free plex victories. Giving one side a 10% advantage over the other, and potentially anything up to a 50% advantage, seems like a pretty poor mechanism if there is nothing we can do about it


It is pretty much nothing. Just suck it up and deal and realize that Odamia and Ikoskio are going to be great for farming if you are on one side, or really easy to capture if you are on the other side.

Quote:
Quote:

Is there anything that can be done at the DUST end if they coordinate with eve corps? Last I heard the contracts were procedurally generated but not sure if this is still true.

But my question is, are shared intel channels any use for anything if strategic coordination is impossible? Can the DUSTies choose which systems they target or is that done mechanically?

No idea. DUST hasn't mattered enough for me to care about figuring this feature out. I joined some DUST intel channels, but eventually I closed them because nothing ever happened with them. (which indicates to me at least that DUST is pretty much irrelevant)
Epikurus
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2014-06-30 15:34:14 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Epikurus wrote:

You make it sound as if this is nothing ...

Making it take less time for one side and more time for the other side is equivalent to giving one side a bunch of free plex victories. Giving one side a 10% advantage over the other, and potentially anything up to a 50% advantage, seems like a pretty poor mechanism if there is nothing we can do about it


It is pretty much nothing. Just suck it up and deal and realize that Odamia and Ikoskio are going to be great for farming if you are on one side, or really easy to capture if you are on the other side.


Yeah - that's not really approaching anything like an intelligent comment on the mechanics. The potential for one side to have a global 50% victory point advantage over the other without anything happening in-game is clearly not nothing.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#8 - 2014-06-30 15:52:41 UTC
Epikurus wrote:

Yeah - that's not really approaching anything like an intelligent comment on the mechanics. The potential for one side to have a global 50% victory point advantage over the other without anything happening in-game is clearly not nothing.


I'm just telling you how things are, not how you want them to be. You say that DUST affects sov greatly. I say it doesn't.

YOU say you can't affect the outcome. I say you can: 1) join a DUST corporation, 2) get on intel channels and whenever your side is fighting in a system you care about.... go help them out with orbital bombardment.

YOU say the DUST outcome matters greatly. I say it doesn't matter much at all. I've been part of literally hundreds of system captures, and DUST has only mattered when the influence has changed for the defense when the system is vulnerable, and one side is bashing the IHUB (which is rare). Otherwise, it has been irrelevant.

Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-06-30 16:08:35 UTC
It's literally like 3-5 more hours of plexing. And when it's that high (97%), everybody is evacuating and not contesting plexes anymore. And it's only really important if you actually fighting for every percentage point, otherwise, it's just a little more time to capture the system.
Stalence
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#10 - 2014-06-30 16:10:28 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Epikurus wrote:

Yeah - that's not really approaching anything like an intelligent comment on the mechanics. The potential for one side to have a global 50% victory point advantage over the other without anything happening in-game is clearly not nothing.


I'm just telling you how things are, not how you want them to be. You say that DUST affects sov greatly. I say it doesn't.

YOU say you can't affect the outcome. I say you can: 1) join a DUST corporation, 2) get on intel channels and whenever your side is fighting in a system you care about.... go help them out with orbital bombardment.

YOU say the DUST outcome matters greatly. I say it doesn't matter much at all. I've been part of literally hundreds of system captures, and DUST has only mattered when the influence has changed for the defense when the system is vulnerable, and one side is bashing the IHUB (which is rare). Otherwise, it has been irrelevant.



We were within a minute or two of flipping a system many moons ago when DUST pushed it back to contested. We had no idea a DUST battle was even occurring that we could drop on. Not sure if they changed it since but having satellite beacons only show up when a battle is happening would be nice.

Either way I'm just waiting until eventually DUST 514 becomes DUST OFFLINE and the current influence stats get wiped.

Member of #tweetfleet @stalence // Templis CALSF // YouTube Channel

Epikurus
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2014-06-30 16:10:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Epikurus
X Gallentius wrote:
Epikurus wrote:

Yeah - that's not really approaching anything like an intelligent comment on the mechanics. The potential for one side to have a global 50% victory point advantage over the other without anything happening in-game is clearly not nothing.


I'm just telling you how things are, not how you want them to be. You say that DUST affects sov greatly. I say it doesn't.

YOU say you can't affect the outcome. I say you can: 1) join a DUST corporation, 2) get on intel channels and whenever your side is fighting in a system you care about.... go help them out with orbital bombardment.

YOU say the DUST outcome matters greatly. I say it doesn't matter much at all. I've been part of literally hundreds of system captures, and DUST has only mattered when the influence has changed for the defense when the system is vulnerable, and one side is bashing the IHUB (which is rare). Otherwise, it has been irrelevant.



These words you are putting in my mouth ... can't ... fit ... them all in.

I'm talking about the quality of the mechanics here. You seem to be talking about something else ('how things are'?).

You're also missing the use of the word potentially in your misrepresentation of quite a few of my comments.

As to,

Quote:

YOU say you can't affect the outcome. I say you can: 1) join a DUST corporation


Really? When the question is about the issue of having ingame effects from out of game sources your suggestion is go buy a different gaming machine and play a different game? You really think that's a good mechanic for eve?

Incidentally, in your previous post you stated that you didn't know whether anything could be done even from this angle as you didn't bother to find out about these mechanics. It's probably best if you don't just make reflexively contrarian posts and try and engage with the question in good faith instead.
Epikurus
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2014-06-30 16:24:37 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
It's literally like 3-5 more hours of plexing. And when it's that high (97%), everybody is evacuating and not contesting plexes anymore. And it's only really important if you actually fighting for every percentage point, otherwise, it's just a little more time to capture the system.


I'm not saying the global percentages have a huge effect as is but the potential is there for a swing of 25% each way across the board, unless there is some mechanism built into DUST to stop extreme swings like that. It seems pretty absurd that there is scope for DUST to create a 1500 victory point difference between one side needing 2250 VPs to take systems and the other side needing 3750 VPs. As it is the across the board average is much narrower with only a 300 point gap at the moment but still ... what's the value in this system if it doesn't reflect anything in eve? And looking at individual systems, some have pretty significant margins and any level above 15% is going to have a considerable impact on a system control fight. Again, why? Where's the value from this mechanic?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#13 - 2014-06-30 16:38:05 UTC
Epikurus wrote:

I'm not saying the global percentages have a huge effect as is but the potential is there for a swing of 25% each way across the board, unless there is some mechanism built into DUST to stop extreme swings like that.

It's called "get into DUST intel channels and provide orbital bombardment support whenever they are attacking one of those systems".
Epikurus
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2014-06-30 16:40:22 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Epikurus wrote:

I'm not saying the global percentages have a huge effect as is but the potential is there for a swing of 25% each way across the board, unless there is some mechanism built into DUST to stop extreme swings like that.

It's called "get into DUST intel channels and provide orbital bombardment support whenever they are attacking one of those systems".


Are orbital bombardments that decisive?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#15 - 2014-06-30 16:45:24 UTC
Epikurus wrote:
Are orbital bombardments that decisive?
Don't know. Why don't you try it out and get back to us. You can at least make some good LP out of it.
Epikurus
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2014-06-30 16:50:24 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Epikurus wrote:
Are orbital bombardments that decisive?
Don't know. Why don't you try it out and get back to us. You can at least make some good LP out of it.


If you don't know why not just stop making blind assertions that you're unable to support and leave it to people who actually know the answers to respond?
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#17 - 2014-06-30 18:58:03 UTC
Epikurus wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Epikurus wrote:
Are orbital bombardments that decisive?
Don't know. Why don't you try it out and get back to us. You can at least make some good LP out of it.


If you don't know why not just stop making blind assertions that you're unable to support and leave it to people who actually know the answers to respond?


Dust is bad and its interaction with EVE is boring, though it did save us 2 hours of plexing in the last heyd capture. Though as has been said it was academic since resistance was all but gone at that point

I hope someone telling you what you already know makes you feel better.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#18 - 2014-06-30 19:46:35 UTC
Epikurus wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Epikurus wrote:
Are orbital bombardments that decisive?
Don't know. Why don't you try it out and get back to us. You can at least make some good LP out of it.
If you don't know why not just stop making blind assertions that you're unable to support and leave it to people who actually know the answers to respond?
If you don't want a response, then don't ask a question.
Dread Operative
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#19 - 2014-07-01 14:49:24 UTC
The autisim in this thread is too stronk.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#20 - 2014-07-01 16:00:02 UTC
Epikurus wrote:
Are orbital bombardments that decisive?


from my experience most of the matches i helped are victories. This can have multiple reasons, one is that dustlers only ask for help if they have a squad leader and a proper team (usually the squad leader is who is asking for OP support). So they are already organised and have the advantage. The fact that they know that they get help might also encourage them to use more expensive stuff (just a guess).

Or, OBs itself can turn the tide on a match. Since being in orbit not only gives them an OB every 4 minutes, it also makes sure the opponent doesn't get one. (Unless you are a farmer and run from everything)

but i am never actively seeking for dust matches, i usually only help if i am nearby and in a coercer (which is probably best ship for OBs, so i have usually ammo for it in cargo)

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

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