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Contract Scams
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Tidurious
Blatant Alt Corp
#1 - 2011-09-11 20:45:34 UTC
I'm willing to admit it: I've been had. Just recently, in one of the trade hubs. I was nervous that I might be being scammed, and it was true; I'll be more careful in the future. However, I'm trying to figure out how it happened.

I saw a contract that was selling for say, 100M. It had a couple of items in it; for one of them, when I looked at the market value, it had a buy order for, say, 150M. Knowing that it might be a trick, I though that perhaps I could push the buttons a bit faster than someone else and buy the contract, then sell the item before they could pull the buy order.

I tried it an lost. I hit the final "sell item" button within 6 seconds of accepting the contract (I timed myself... I know.... I'm crazy). I had kept refreshing the price again and again to make sure the buy order was there - only after I hit the final sell item button did it say "I'm sorry, the price is no longer available, must've been outdated... etc."

Can you link a buy order to a contract like that? I have a hard time believing that someone would have seen that I bought the contract and cancelled before I could hit "sell".

Can someone help tell me how I got screwed over? I won't be playing this game again in the future, but I like to know what happened to my ISK :(. Apart from me being dumb.....
Ikarushka
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2011-09-11 20:57:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Ikarushka
This scam is old, it has been around for many many years... it's based on a skill called "MARGIN TRADING": when creating the buy order you do not have to have the entire amount of the buy order but just a fraction. In case your order is filled, the game will attempt to take money directly from your wallet to get the rest. If your wallet does not have enough money, the buy order is canceled...

So the scam is:

1) Make a sell order/escrow
2) Made a buy order for a higher cost than the original sell order on a char that has 25% of the buy price (i think that's what lvl 5 of the marginal trading does)
3) Wait for someone to bite

Better luck next time
I likegirls
Turnur Pound
#3 - 2011-09-11 22:52:10 UTC
If something seems like you are getting a good deal, then it is probably a scam.
Tidurious
Blatant Alt Corp
#4 - 2011-09-12 00:24:30 UTC
Thanks to both of you - I learned my lesson :P They got me fair and square; I need to remember that I'M the stupid one, not the people who look like they're making a mistake.
whaynethepain
#5 - 2011-09-12 01:14:32 UTC
Inform CCP the marketeer was obligated to the buy, perhaps they need a skill to have negative credit.

Otherwise it is abusing game mechanics, I'm sure we don't wan't to see this happen.

CCP have many game dev's to hand and they do a very good job of ironing out the exploits.

Getting you on your feet.

So you've further to fall.
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#6 - 2011-09-12 02:40:11 UTC
whaynethepain wrote:
Inform CCP the marketeer was obligated to the buy, perhaps they need a skill to have negative credit.

Otherwise it is abusing game mechanics, I'm sure we don't wan't to see this happen.

CCP have many game dev's to hand and they do a very good job of ironing out the exploits.


discussed to no end, it is within the game mechanic and is (pay attention, this is the important part)
NOT AN EXPLOIT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM

while it may be an unintended use of game mechanics is has been ruled fair and within the scope of legal gameplay
whaynethepain
#7 - 2011-09-12 03:45:35 UTC
Is that your opinion, or one you borrowed?

Here is the definition of exploit;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit

I am borrowing the definition many people understand.

Please re-asses your consideration to this issue.

I need more players to interact with, and dissatisfied customers quitting the game reduces this possibility somewhat.

I understand your frustration, as I feel it too, I think we are forgetting, the customer is always right.

Getting you on your feet.

So you've further to fall.
Tidurious
Blatant Alt Corp
#8 - 2011-09-12 04:20:28 UTC
Wayne - after looking in to this more, I agree with you - this is an exploit, plain and simple. For you who would disagree, let me explain my reasoning, and then if you think I'm wrong, let me know:

This is the description of the skill "Margin Trading" as quoted from EVE:

Ability to make potentially risky investments work in your favor. Each level of skill reduces the percentage of ISK placed in market escrow when entering buy orders. Starting with an escrow percentage of 100% at Level 0 (untrained skill), each skill level cumulatively reduces the percentage by 25%. For a maximum reduction of approximately 24% total escrow at level 5.

What stands out to me is the part "Ability to make RISKY investments work in your favor." If you don't have to put as much ISK in escrow as your buy order price, then you can put more buy orders on the market in terms of ISK. However, if they are ALL accepted, then you would have a negative balance of ISK. This is where the risk comes from. A trader might want, through one large (less wise) or several smaller (wiser) buy orders, place ALL his/her ISK in escrow. If all of the trades go through, then this trader would have a negative balance and be in debt. However, the way this works in the trader's favor is that he/she can now sell everything, more than he/she could have bought with just the ISK in their wallet, and potentially make a much greater profit because he/she was able to buy more.

If a buy order is placed on the market using this skill, then the buyer should be obligated to purchase regardless of the ISK in their wallet. That is what this skill is all about - otherwise, there is really no risk to the buyer!

I have petitioned CCP with regards to this, both for my individual transaction and the exploit as a whole. waynethepain, thanks for your insight and help. I may start this on another thread to specifically talk about this exploit, I'll link it if I do.

Fly safe everyone

-Tid
whaynethepain
#9 - 2011-09-12 06:41:34 UTC
Yes, It's as simple as how a direct debit works.

Getting you on your feet.

So you've further to fall.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2011-09-12 07:09:53 UTC
If you did it in 6 seconds and it failed, then ya got to wonder if there's a bot at work there

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062
Xearal
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#11 - 2011-09-12 08:51:17 UTC
This is not an exploit, why? Because it was discussed and deemed not an exploit by CCP.
Is it a strange way of using market orders and skills? Maybe.

Your alternative however is even worse. If negative balance would be allowed, you'd be able to make isk in the game by setting up such buy orders in a quiet system, then sell to them on a different account, then ditch said character after giving the stuff back to your main with the direct trade.
IE:
- Train up alt with skill
- Give alt 10B isk
- Set up buy order for an item at 40B in a quiet station somewhere.
- Sell said item from your main to the buy order, main gets 40B isk, after having sent 10B isk to alt.
- Alt is dicarded.
- 30B isk is created out of nowhere.
- Economy goes down the drain as isk becomes worthless.

The reason I said maybe for the margin skill use is that in more advanced RL trade tricks in stocktrading, there are similar techniques used by people to manipulate the price of a certain stock, raising or lowering it's value and making a good profit.
I'm not entirely familiar with the details, but it involves 'phantom' buy orders to buy-out smalltimers and create a 'vaccuum' of demand when you have a number of shares of something, then sell them high.

Does railgun ammunition come in Hollow Point?
Sutskop
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2011-09-12 09:20:15 UTC
Headerman wrote:
If you did it in 6 seconds and it failed, then ya got to wonder if there's a bot at work there

No bot. Read and understand the thread:
The buy order fails as soon as you try to sell to it.

It is no exploit and has been discussed over and over again. Just don't buy stuff because of one lonely buy order.
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#13 - 2011-09-12 17:55:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Morganta
whaynethepain wrote:
Is that your opinion, or one you borrowed?

Here is the definition of exploit;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit

I am borrowing the definition many people understand.

Please re-asses your consideration to this issue.

I need more players to interact with, and dissatisfied customers quitting the game reduces this possibility somewhat.

I understand your frustration, as I feel it too, I think we are forgetting, the customer is always right.


its the opinion of the developers of the game

not an exploit

welcome to eve, now shut your ignorant cakehole, the adults are talking.
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#14 - 2011-09-12 17:55:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Morganta
... damn new forums...
whaynethepain
#15 - 2011-09-12 18:09:28 UTC  |  Edited by: whaynethepain
Xearal wrote:
A very interesting informed, well rounded opinion;

IE:
- Train up alt with skill
- Give alt 10B isk
- Set up buy order for an item at 40B in a quiet station somewhere.

May I take you back to this point, the rest is also very valid, but imagine;

The skill to set up a buy order of -40 B ISK would cost 80 B ISK.

Skills can be used over and over, using it thrice would see a potential return.

Morganta wrote:
whaynethepain wrote:
The customer is always right.


Crap...


I see you re-assessed your opinion.

Thankyou.

Getting you on your feet.

So you've further to fall.
Maxpie
MUSE LLP
#16 - 2011-09-13 00:22:04 UTC
While this is not considered an exploit, it really should be imo. There's no risk to the person who sets this up. I'm tired of more and more things in Eve being with little or no risk. Just make it freakin' WOW in space already and get it over with Sad

No good deed goes unpunished
Kerppe Krulli
Doomheim
#17 - 2011-09-13 00:51:28 UTC
Don't forget to WIDEN your market window to find the column that states "min quantity". Tag sellers use this as their lifeline by stating the min quantity they will accept is say 5 or 10 and they are selling you only 4; or they will use the margin trading and sell you the exact number their min quantity requires. This is a red flag to a scam in the making.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2011-09-13 01:18:14 UTC
Sutskop wrote:
Headerman wrote:
If you did it in 6 seconds and it failed, then ya got to wonder if there's a bot at work there

No bot. Read and understand the thread:
The buy order fails as soon as you try to sell to it.

It is no exploit and has been discussed over and over again. Just don't buy stuff because of one lonely buy order.


Oh i know that, it isn't an exploit at all because someone could go and fill the sell order without buying the contract.

But, my point was aimed at when a nub takes the contract and immediately tries to sell the goods only to find the buy order taken down, the scammer *may* have a bot running to can the sell order once the contract has been taken.

If not, the scammer would literally be hovering his mouse over the 'Cancel buy order' command for hours

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#19 - 2011-09-13 01:55:05 UTC
I've made a fair bit of isk off this scam myself.

Your best tool is the price history. If it's a fraction of what those buy orders are set for, odds are you're looking at a scam. The latest ones I've seen both buy AND sell orders placed so they can make it look like a more solid market. Price history is key though. It would take one very dedicated scammer to run up the price for a month or more in order to sucker in a more wary buyer.

There's no reason to list something in a contract that can be bought on the market, except as part of a scam. (exception: rigged ships)

If there's something you need that can only be bought in contracts, search for it yourself. Use the filters to weed out those scams.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Tidurious
Blatant Alt Corp
#20 - 2011-09-13 07:02:43 UTC
Headerman: there is no bot - using the margin trading skill, the player can place a buy order but NOT HAVE ENOUGH ISK IN THEIR WALLET TO COMPLETE THE ORDER. This way, the order is cancelled *only* but *immediately* when someone tries to fill that buy order, but not before.

Floppie: good point about the market history.

IMO: I still believe that this is an abuse of game mechanics. There is no risk involved to the "buyer" when using the skill 'Margin Trading', even though the skill says that it is to make risky trades. I believe that CCP is forgetting to add any risk to the buyer.

Xearal: I agree with your point about my original suggestion simply creating ISK out of thin air - something would have to be put into place to mitigate that possibility, and I'm not sure what it is yet. I'm thinking about it. When I think of a better solution I'll post it, probably in a new thread though. I appreciate your input.

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