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Incursions should be in low/null sec
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Vrykolakasis
Sparrowhawks Corp
#21 - 2011-12-05 21:39:25 UTC
My thought is that, just like level 5 missions, if incursions are removed from highsec it will not bring people out to low/null, it will just mean there are less highsec opportunities to join up together and meet people, and have fun as a group.

My other thought is that there should be even better isk making opportunities in null. But while they should have excellent payout they should be absurdly risky.

My tertiary thought is that there are a huge number of losses in incursions, and they are often extremely expensive losses for good players, caused by inexperienced players in cheap ships.

My final thought is that incursions have caused me to play a lot more EVE than I was playing before I discovered how much fun they are.
Kel'Tarus
League of Gentlemen Extraordinaire
#22 - 2011-12-05 21:48:31 UTC
Incursion is what brought me out to low/null sec. I was always hesitant to go out and PvP because I didn't have enough isk to fund the ships, now I can just go out and PvP at my leisure without having to worry about isk.

Why fix it if it ain't broken
Kat Bandeis
Trinity Industries Corp.
#23 - 2011-12-05 21:53:19 UTC
Kurogauna wrote:
Incursions should be in low/null sec !

Why ?

isks making without risk = inflation

high isks/hour in empire = less pve'ers in low/null/wh

Like Lvl5 missions, the incursions should be moved in a more dangerous place.

That's all.


I agree... ALL T2 BPO's ARE BAD!! BAD!!!

oh, wait...
Thredd Necro
Doomheim
#24 - 2011-12-05 23:09:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Thredd Necro
Kurogauna wrote:
More of the same tired parroting about making "safe/safer" pursuits less profitable in defiance of reality and human temperament, as though low and null sec were really that risky and dangerous...


Death and ship loss are meaningless in EVE as time is all that is required to recover a ship or a clone one neglected to update.

Burning through ships and equipment burns through money. Less ship loss=more money. Don't blame carebears for doing what EVE allows them to do and is DESIGNED to allow them to do: sit in high-sec and make money at mostly little risk to themselves.

Nullbear Rangers thinking of themselves as special and leet in a GAME is just plain silly. (Calling other players cowards and carebears is even sillier.)

Lol

Why would the sansha pick low/highsec over highsec knowing how law enforcement really works in EVE anyway?

A hive mind would have zero issues sacrificing individuals in suicide ganking so why would they choose to invade the lawless/near lawless hardscrabble depths of low/null-sec when highsec would be SO much more profitable for them?...

I mean really...Big smile

He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which. - Douglas Adams
Heun zero
MAYHEM BOYZ
#25 - 2011-12-06 12:46:11 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
Let me get this straight

Incursions produce a lot of isk

You have access to Incursions, by getting your ass out there.

You demand Inscursions be nerfed.

You refuse to participate, because obviously you choose not to roll in isk.

They give you easy money, but you don't want it.

And this is a problem CCP needs to fix? Because you don't want the easy money?

No, incursions are fine. Its your problem that you are not making the isk, because you refuse to go do them.



This is exactly the reason why incursions, or more specific the vanguard sites need a small reduction in pay out. Easy isk Should not be freely available for everyone. It should come through RL skills such as cleverness (including but not limited to good scamming), taking risks, audacity, hard work, determination etc. coupled with ingame skills. Vanguard sites currently pay to much for too few skills.

To the op, moving all incursions to low sec is actually counter productive if you ask me. The whole idea was to get people to work together in a more pvp like enviroment so the step to low sec would actually be lower. By moving them to low sec you're removing that stepping stone.

The biggest problem though lies with the eve community itself though. Some people are so afraid of going into low/null sec you couldnt beat them out of high sec with a baseball bat. It's proven nearly impossible to change that so far...
Raven Ether
Doomheim
#26 - 2011-12-06 12:59:31 UTC
BearJews wrote:
Whats this, some more whine from people who clearly don't incursion?

One bad logi pilot and there goes your 1bil-3bil dollar ship.



Sounds like some fun logipvp.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#27 - 2011-12-06 14:13:18 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
BearJews wrote:
One bad logi pilot and there goes your 1bil-3bil dollar ship.


Not all those guys are actually bad. Well, at least not in the way you mean Lol

edit: Seriously, though, highsec vanguard sites need to pay less, be reduced in quantity, or some other modification that would result in them being less farm-able. That's all the change incursions need.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Eian
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2011-12-06 14:30:37 UTC
Kurogauna wrote:
Incursions should be in low/null sec !

Why ?

isks making without risk = inflation

high isks/hour in empire = less pve'ers in low/null/wh

Like Lvl5 missions, the incursions should be moved in a more dangerous place.

That's all.


What's it like in that tiny little world you live in by yourself?
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2011-12-06 14:49:40 UTC
Heun zero wrote:
This is exactly the reason why incursions, or more specific the vanguard sites need a small reduction in pay out. Easy isk Should not be freely available for everyone. It should come through RL skills such as cleverness (including but not limited to good scamming), taking risks, audacity, hard work, determination etc. coupled with ingame skills. Vanguard sites currently pay to much for too few skills.

To the op, moving all incursions to low sec is actually counter productive if you ask me. The whole idea was to get people to work together in a more pvp like enviroment so the step to low sec would actually be lower. By moving them to low sec you're removing that stepping stone.

The biggest problem though lies with the eve community itself though. Some people are so afraid of going into low/null sec you couldnt beat them out of high sec with a baseball bat. It's proven nearly impossible to change that so far...

True, Vanguards may put out to much isk but thats not my argument (I couldn't care, have only warped in twice to look as I choose not to run them). What I cannot understand is that of all the stupid humans on this planet, why would you not go for the easy route? Put it this way: 3 people, one is a rich mother f*cker (Incursions) giving away money to the other two; which one refuses (honor, pride, don't need it content with what you want what ever) but then screams foul when the other guy takes the money when offered. You refuse to not take the money (or run the incursions) so why should the guy that takes the money (the one running the incursions) get screwed over when the obvious choice would be both of you take a share of the money and EVERYONE LUCKS OUT IN THE END (where you go blow that isk in PVP loss and go PVE it back).

Basicly, if you choose to not run Incursions because you think its to easy why should the other guys hammering it get screwed over? You can just pretend it doesn't exist and ignore them all together or exploit it to your advantage like Skunkworks does by causing incursion fleets to blow up...they do it for the KM not the profit (or if you profited off it, go lose your own ships knowing you have a deep pocket).

Or if its another "economy gets screwed up" excuse...hey look Hulkageddon is comming up which isn't asking for CCP to nerf this/that; they (Nike)Just Do it(/Nike) without dev help and the entire market in minerals/hulks just flops over...Goons with ice (Nike)Just Do It(/Nike) and gank Macks causing the price of a certain isotope to skyrocket. You don't need outside help to fix your percieved problems, the tools are already in game (like ganking and manipulation) so instead of asking CCP to "Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi , you are our only Hope!" to fix the problem why not just "Nut up, Shut up, and Just Do it" yourself? Skunksworks is at it and they have suffered at least 3 nerfs to their tactics in recent months, but that doesn't stop them and I don't understand why the rest of the players can't solve a player problem when a small group is already doing just that and enjoying it in the process.
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2011-12-06 15:53:26 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
CCP has pretty decent control over the isk which is given out by incursions.


Mission:
There is a not defined numebr of missions possible by each pilot. there is no limit of total amount of missions active at the same time in eve. Each pilot will have his own phasing area with his own mission. This is uncontrolled isk production within the game.

=> Danger for game economy

Anomalies:
Players do share all the same amount of anomalies. CCp can control the amount of them pretty decent (respawn rate/ amount per system). Unluckily the amount of total anomalies and anomalies per eve player is pretty high.

=> Less danger but still a big cash flow.


Incursions:
Very limited amount of incursions. Spawn rate and amount per system can be controlled and adjusted very easily. Players share them. More players is still the same payout even if it is less per player.

=> Control of cash influx.


The above model shows even if it seems there is no control over isk creation incursions do have the easiest control mechanics and produce a limited amount of isk, no matter ow many people are located within a single incursion zone.
If not many pilots choose to do such incursions there is the possibility that a single beiing can have piles of cash but it is still a limited amount. The more people do incursions the max payout still stays the same only the distribution will change.

On the other hand missions do produce an amount of isk which is in no way controlable by ccp. There is no maximum payout. If 1000 people do run missions the payout is x. if 1000 times the number of pilots fly missions the payout is 1000 * x.

For anomalies there is a possible control switch but the numebr of anomalies is bigger thean the number of pilots willing to do them. The demand is lower than the offer. The maximum payout is currently higher than it might be good for eve but the demand is so low that there is still no risk in it.


For an individual pilot or a group of people this seems like an insane amount of cash. From design view it is a perfect market limitation. People will start to realize the restrictions once more pilots gather in incursions. Time will tell :>
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#31 - 2011-12-06 16:07:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammzi
To the skunk guy who stated that the only needed change for incursion is to nerf vanguards.
No, you're wrong. That is not the only needed change and damn you for believing what you find adequate for 2000 + pilots where as you are just 1 pilot.

Perhaps we need vanguards nerfed, but assaults and headquarters need a buff in return. The potential isk/hour payout in HQ is much lower than of the vanguard equivalent even though the fleet size is 4 times bigger and the organizational effort is immense. (Even though the LP payout is larger in HQ/Assaults this does not make much of a difference looking at current concord LP prices...)

Nerf vanguards by 15 %, but buff assaults/headquarters by 20 %!
Jenn Makanen
Doomheim
#32 - 2011-12-06 16:10:07 UTC
heh. people not understanding how inflation in eve works.

If:
Isk entering the game + materials being destroyed

is greater than:
Materials entering the game

isk becomes worth less.
Goose99
#33 - 2011-12-06 16:19:30 UTC
thoth rothschild wrote:
CCP has pretty decent control over the isk which is given out by incursions.


Mission:
There is a not defined numebr of missions possible by each pilot. there is no limit of total amount of missions active at the same time in eve. Each pilot will have his own phasing area with his own mission. This is uncontrolled isk production within the game.

=> Danger for game economy


This "uncontrolled isk production" is also counterbalanced with uncontrolled isk sink in the form of LP shop. A batch of CN cruise cost 4.2 mil isk and 4.2k LP. A typical high end mission produce 9k LP, 3 mil isk reward, and 10 mil bounty (only if you clear all rats, and rats are not drone/faction/merc/concord/mission specific/anything else that give low or no bounty). If you blitz, or just not clear all rats, or if rat types are any of mentioned, then missions are a net isk sink.

Quote:

Anomalies:
Players do share all the same amount of anomalies. CCp can control the amount of them pretty decent (respawn rate/ amount per system). Unluckily the amount of total anomalies and anomalies per eve player is pretty high.

=> Less danger but still a big cash flow.


Majority of Eve's space is sov null, far more systems than highsec. Over half in the form of Russian bot space. 160 mil/hr out of broken hydrant of pure liquid bounty isk, botted 23/7.

Quote:

Incursions:
Very limited amount of incursions. Spawn rate and amount per system can be controlled and adjusted very easily. Players share them. More players is still the same payout even if it is less per player.

=> Control of cash influx.


Also balanced by LP shop isk sink, just like missions. Limited number of players isn't what makes it balanced. It's the fact that even if incursions are greatly expanded, isk sink would expand and balance out isk faucet all the same.

Quote:

The above model shows even if it seems there is no control over isk creation incursions do have the easiest control mechanics and produce a limited amount of isk, no matter ow many people are located within a single incursion zone.
If not many pilots choose to do such incursions there is the possibility that a single beiing can have piles of cash but it is still a limited amount. The more people do incursions the max payout still stays the same only the distribution will change.

On the other hand missions do produce an amount of isk which is in no way controlable by ccp. There is no maximum payout. If 1000 people do run missions the payout is x. if 1000 times the number of pilots fly missions the payout is 1000 * x.

For anomalies there is a possible control switch but the numebr of anomalies is bigger thean the number of pilots willing to do them. The demand is lower than the offer. The maximum payout is currently higher than it might be good for eve but the demand is so low that there is still no risk in it.


For an individual pilot or a group of people this seems like an insane amount of cash. From design view it is a perfect market limitation. People will start to realize the restrictions once more pilots gather in incursions. Time will tell :>
Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#34 - 2011-12-06 17:34:33 UTC
OP is really more noob then me...................
See above

Greetzzzzzzzzzz
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#35 - 2011-12-06 21:26:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Arazel Chainfire wrote:

So, incursions. Incursions in a highend fleet, minimum of a bil or so spend on every non-logi ship, when not competing for sites can finish a site every 3 to 5 minutes. To be competitive, fleets nowadays run with 11 characters on grid, which means payouts are about 9.5mil per site. This means that theoretically, a highend fleet can pull in between 114 and 195mil/hour. In low/null, this jumps up to 160 to 275mil/hour. In low/null, that theoretical rate is possible as long as you don't get into a shooting war with other fleets. Which if its null space that you control, is entirely possible - in lowsec its a bit riskier... but an incursion fleet also doubles quite well as a very nice PvP fleet as long as everyone remembered to fit a point. In highsec however, it is only really possible in a pocket - there is competition, there are fleets completing sites and not leaving them so no new sites spawn, etc. There are any number of little ways that cut off a minute here, a minute there, and leave you pulling in around that 100mil/hour figure. Note, this is with 1bil/ship minimum - less than that and you are pulling in significantly less isk, not only due to completing sites slower, but also due to the better fleets coming and stealing your sites. Lastly, this is ignoring the amount of time it takes a fleet to form up/you to get into a fleet, get to the incursion, etc....
-Arazel



How much are you calculating for the lp?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#36 - 2011-12-06 22:16:37 UTC
Arazel Chainfire wrote:
This means that theoretically, a highend fleet can pull in between 114 and 195mil/hour...There are any number of little ways that cut off a minute here, a minute there, and leave you pulling in around that 100mil/hour figure. Note, this is with 1bil/ship minimum


So your LOW figure has you able to buy that ship after ten hours of high sec incursions. And you don't see a problem with that?

Arazel Chainfire wrote:
Moving on to the next point - C5/C6 wormholes...this is group work, and note that if you know what you are doing, you are pulling in significantly more isk than in incursions. Now without escalation, a C5 site can be completed in about 30 minutes by 4 characters for 250mil. Which puts it at about 125mil/hour - competitive with highsec incursions.


Yeah, only there's no local, no concord, not even a loss of sec status for the bad guys if someone shows up and blows up your stuff.

Arazel Chainfire wrote:
C4 and below sites can be completed by 1-2 characters, and once again, if you are heavily investing in your ship, should bring in about 100mil/hour. Note, thats 100mil/hour of solo, or 2-3 people working together. Which makes it competitive with incursions, but you don't have to fleet up with strangers, find a fleet, etc.


No, you just have to live in the harshest PVP environment in Eve. Oh, and it's impossible to farm wormholes the way you do incursions. At most I can get maybe 3-4 hours at 100 mil/hour when I solo.

You're leaving out the measure of risk in your calculations. Your 1 billion isk ship has concord protection. The only real danger to you is the stupidity of yourself and your fleetmates, something easily remedied by finding a regular group in your timezone. My half-billion isk Legion is on the line every time I venture into a wormhole.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#37 - 2011-12-06 23:03:43 UTC
Maybe I missed this point in someone's posted, but aren't the Incursions SUPPOSED to be invasions in to the populated high-sec areas as part of the game back story? You know, where all the stations are? Where all the NPC cultural centers are? Do you think that is air your breathing? Hmm.

TL:DR - People think the enemy should attack empty places.

-Mad

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet
Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2011-12-07 01:16:51 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Arazel Chainfire wrote:
This means that theoretically, a highend fleet can pull in between 114 and 195mil/hour...There are any number of little ways that cut off a minute here, a minute there, and leave you pulling in around that 100mil/hour figure. Note, this is with 1bil/ship minimum


So your LOW figure has you able to buy that ship after ten hours of high sec incursions. And you don't see a problem with that?

Arazel Chainfire wrote:
Moving on to the next point - C5/C6 wormholes...this is group work, and note that if you know what you are doing, you are pulling in significantly more isk than in incursions. Now without escalation, a C5 site can be completed in about 30 minutes by 4 characters for 250mil. Which puts it at about 125mil/hour - competitive with highsec incursions.


Yeah, only there's no local, no concord, not even a loss of sec status for the bad guys if someone shows up and blows up your stuff.

Arazel Chainfire wrote:
C4 and below sites can be completed by 1-2 characters, and once again, if you are heavily investing in your ship, should bring in about 100mil/hour. Note, thats 100mil/hour of solo, or 2-3 people working together. Which makes it competitive with incursions, but you don't have to fleet up with strangers, find a fleet, etc.


No, you just have to live in the harshest PVP environment in Eve. Oh, and it's impossible to farm wormholes the way you do incursions. At most I can get maybe 3-4 hours at 100 mil/hour when I solo.

You're leaving out the measure of risk in your calculations. Your 1 billion isk ship has concord protection. The only real danger to you is the stupidity of yourself and your fleetmates, something easily remedied by finding a regular group in your timezone. My half-billion isk Legion is on the line every time I venture into a wormhole.


I've lived in WH's - everything from C2's, to C4's, to C5's to C6's, and had statics that were C3/C4/C5 etc. You know why I left wormholes? Because they were boring. And easy. And damn near risk free if you know what you are doing. I regularly risked several 1+bil isk ships in C3 statics (more in C4's, and C5's), without worry. Why? Because if you know what you're doing, and you put out the proper precautions, they are risk free. Yeah there is no local - you don't NEED LOCAL. There are so few people in WH's, that its easy to go for days, sometimes for weeks without seeing anyone else. As for getting WH sites like you get incursions - get an orca, and get a decent static and you can cycle all day long. There was one day that I spammed (with a few friends) 6 different statics over the course of the day, running sites in all of them. All it takes is paying a bit of attention and knowing what you're doing.

As for my low figure affording it in 10 hours... you can say the exact same thing about WH's. And as I showed, you get fairly similar isk amounts with the same isk investment. And the lowest risk one? Running missions in highsec. Followed by running anoms in blue nullsec with intel channels. And then probably running incursions, with running WH's coming shortly after that.

Lastly, for incursions I wasn't calculating the LP with that - most of the people I know don't bother using it because it piles up slowly and isn't worth wasting your time trying to dump it with.

-Arazel
Heun zero
MAYHEM BOYZ
#39 - 2011-12-07 01:29:08 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
A lot.


I read your post and I'm not entirely sure what exactly your point is, but if you mean to say that people are 'a bit silly' because they dont do incursions because they pay to much then I agree.

I'm doing incursions as well because they pay so much. I just think that vanguards could use some tweaking in their pay out. Assaults and HQ's seem pretty much ok to me though
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#40 - 2011-12-07 15:39:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Arazel wrote:
Lastly, for incursions I wasn't calculating the LP with that - most of the people I know don't bother using it because it piles up slowly and isn't worth wasting your time trying to dump it with.

-Arazel



I have heard that some incursion runners have insane amounts of concord lp. Are you saying this is in addition to the amounts of isk you are calculating?

How much lp do you get?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815