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Should logistics be more accessible?
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Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#61 - 2011-12-03 02:38:56 UTC
Osprey's can be surprisingly effective, especially with ruptures. And you get fights!

As for t2 logi being underpowered, you're all missing the fundamental reason you don't see logi more - YOU DON'T GET FIGHTS WITH LOGI. Most fleets I run with actively turn down logi because the moment logistcis are scouted gangs that were forming up to fight you disappear. Sure, there are people who are willing to shoot at them, but if you're looking for pew bringing logi is counterproductive. There are ways to hide your logi, but often they're more trouble then you're worth, especially if you're bringing anything more than a pocket scimmy or oneiros. (both of which are acceptable additions to fleet because they can effectively remain unscouted)

This of course doesn't apply in situations where the enemy has to fight (poses, for one), but for anytime when they don't, bringing logi is a bad idea unless your opposition is already packing it.
Jan'tor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2011-12-03 02:59:00 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Good thing that it doesn't take that long to try it then — it takes that long to create a specialised single-purpose character with access to the full range of (top-tier) equipment that is needed for that role. You don't need any of that to try it.


Wait, what

I would love to try it, even without any kind of top-tier equipment. Unfortunately the rifters that I get for free are more useful than that in any kind of pvp.
Lil Nippy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#63 - 2011-12-03 03:05:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Lil Nippy
.
Lil Nippy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#64 - 2011-12-03 03:05:35 UTC
Tamiya Sarossa wrote:
Osprey's can be surprisingly effective, especially with ruptures. And you get fights!

As for t2 logi being underpowered, you're all missing the fundamental reason you don't see logi more - YOU DON'T GET FIGHTS WITH LOGI. Most fleets I run with actively turn down logi because the moment logistcis are scouted gangs that were forming up to fight you disappear. Sure, there are people who are willing to shoot at them, but if you're looking for pew bringing logi is counterproductive. There are ways to hide your logi, but often they're more trouble then you're worth, especially if you're bringing anything more than a pocket scimmy or oneiros. (both of which are acceptable additions to fleet because they can effectively remain unscouted)

This of course doesn't apply in situations where the enemy has to fight (poses, for one), but for anytime when they don't, bringing logi is a bad idea unless your opposition is already packing it.



Yes, but this is a direct result of said gang not being able to field a comparable amount of logis on there own. Here is an example that I run into quite often.

Gang A has 10 BCs and 6 logi and gang B has 15 BCs. Gang B scouts out gang A and asks who can ship to logi. Two pilots reply. So now gang B has 13 BCs and 2 logi and is still afraid to fight gang A with 10 BCs and 6 logi because they lack pilots skilled enough for that role.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#65 - 2011-12-03 03:15:46 UTC
Jan'tor wrote:
Wait, what

I would love to try it, even without any kind of top-tier equipment.
Then do so.

The logistics role is not unique to the logistics ships.
Karadion
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#66 - 2011-12-03 03:19:23 UTC
No.
Pinaculus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2011-12-06 14:07:15 UTC
Bumping this because T1 Logi cruisers are terrible.

In fact, most T1 cruisers are terrible. But the Logi just takes the cake.

And the gap between T1 Logi and T2 Logi is just HUGE, both in ISK and effectiveness. The problem is that there's no mid-point. Either you get a super cheap PVP ship that is awful, or you blow hundreds of millions on a ship that is incredible.

I know sometimes it's difficult to realize just how much you spend on incidental things each month or year, but seriously, EVE is very cheap entertainment compared to most things... If you are a smoker, smoke one less pack a week and pay for EVE, with money left over to pick up a cheap bundle of flowers for the EVE widow upstairs.
Xtover
Cold Moon Destruction.
#68 - 2011-12-06 14:11:29 UTC
Lil Nippy wrote:

Gang A has 10 BCs and 6 logi and gang B has 15 BCs. Gang B scouts out gang A and asks who can ship to logi. Two pilots reply. So now gang B has 13 BCs and 2 logi and is still afraid to fight gang A with 10 BCs and 6 logi because they lack pilots skilled enough for that role.


this is a problem?

sound like gang A is more cohesive and prepared and gang B isn't.
Pinaculus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2011-12-06 15:04:47 UTC
Xtover wrote:
Lil Nippy wrote:

Gang A has 10 BCs and 6 logi and gang B has 15 BCs. Gang B scouts out gang A and asks who can ship to logi. Two pilots reply. So now gang B has 13 BCs and 2 logi and is still afraid to fight gang A with 10 BCs and 6 logi because they lack pilots skilled enough for that role.


this is a problem?

sound like gang A is more cohesive and prepared and gang B isn't.


No, no problem at all. Gang A has their ducks in a row, and Gang B is just a slap-dash roam.

And High-Sec Incursions are doing quite a bit to eliminate the "Nobody flies Logi" problem. Now if only there was a way to convince all those Incursion folk to get their shiny T2 Logis blown up in low-sec. IIRC most decent corps have a ship replacement fund that rewards PVP Logi loss far greater than normal losses.

So, I guess the secret is the same as everything else in EVE. Find a decent corp that has their crap together.

I know sometimes it's difficult to realize just how much you spend on incidental things each month or year, but seriously, EVE is very cheap entertainment compared to most things... If you are a smoker, smoke one less pack a week and pay for EVE, with money left over to pick up a cheap bundle of flowers for the EVE widow upstairs.
Barakkus
#70 - 2011-12-06 15:12:08 UTC
Ottersmacker wrote:
OP definitely has a point and it is a larger problem actually (not trying to derail) - the present state of the tiered ship system means most of the low-tier ships (e.g tormentor, executioner, augoror) are very underwhelming if not almost useless. All of them should be addressed, and making the support cruiser base hulls more useful would be a very good way to instantly make 4 relatively underwhelming ships more useful again.


Then CCP should remove all ships and give everyone some generic thing called "Ship" and all modules so they can implement 1 item called "Module" so everyone can be on an even playing field from day 1 right?

http://youtu.be/yytbDZrw1jc
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#71 - 2011-12-06 15:30:16 UTC
Would love to see the Augoror and Scythe getting the RR bonuses instead of the silliness they have now.

But I would like to see tiers removed even more .. so 'meh'. Smile
Korin Corax
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2011-12-06 16:27:33 UTC
Tippia wrote:


The logistics role is not unique to the logistics ships.


Important point this.^

While I'm no fan of the T1 logi cruisers, there are other ships that can perform as logi's even without the bonuses that the T2 ships get. They are not perhaps that effective in PvP (Domi notwithstanding ofc.), but more than adequate for practice runs in missions.

And yes, doing low level missions as a group is not great from an isk/hour perspective, but that's not the point. The point is to help train prospective Logi pilots, and I'd hope any decent corp mates would see the benefit in this.

However, if you are a mission runner (or intend to be) and are interested in flying Logi's in the future, then the domi (and even the myrmidon) are sound ship choices. They are both capable reppers which can still add reasonable DPS if required.
If you find flying these that you don't like being a "healer" then you still have nice ship skills that can be used for other purposes without wasting too much time.

Talk to your corp mates, explain that you'd like a taste of "healing" and ask if you could run a few missions a week/ month in a small group as practice. If they are also low SP pilots, they may actually see a benefit from running more DPS-centric fits instead of cap-stable self-reppers when it comes to finishing missions quickly.
Satav
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2011-12-06 17:00:58 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
T1 logi ships already do function as lesser versions of the T2. What rock are you crawling out from under?


This.

Also, the whole reason why EvE is so rewarding and fun is because it takes time to achieve the lvl of playability of said ships. we want to keep the learning curve as it is.

Satav
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2011-12-06 17:01:34 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
T1 logi ships already do function as lesser versions of the T2. What rock are you crawling out from under?


this.
BeanBagKing
The Order of Atlas
#75 - 2011-12-06 17:09:38 UTC
Logi is inaccessible - I think they're fine, you have T1 logi, you have spider tank gangs, others have pointed out most of this
Logi is unrewarding - I support logi on killmails \o/
Logi and ECM - Not sure if I support this or not, I don't fly logi a lot. One thing about them that we've noticed in our fleets is it's not just ECM, it's ewar in general. Sensor damp w/ lock time scripts can be devastating to a fleet. EWAR can usually be countered by a utility mid, but this removes tank from the shield version and it only works if you know ahead of time what shiptypes hostiles are fielding. Really, in terms of game balance I think this is fine, I don't think there should be a change here.
whatever whateverson
Doomheim
#76 - 2011-12-06 17:12:19 UTC  |  Edited by: whatever whateverson
If you want a "Healer" class go play WoW! (Or one of the 10000 WoW clones.)

Leave EvE to the rest of us! (EvE has ZERO clones...)


Oh and your argument is based on the fact you can not be bothered to train for Logi, so your argument is as valid as "GIEEF ME CAPITAL SHIPS WITHOUT ANY WORK FREE NOOOW!"
Covert Kitty
SRS Industries
#77 - 2011-12-06 17:16:17 UTC
The main issue I see with t1 "logi" is the lack of a range role bonus, if they had that they may even be used in their current form.
Ottersmacker
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#78 - 2011-12-06 17:22:54 UTC
Barakkus wrote:
Ottersmacker wrote:
the tiered ship system

Then CCP should remove all ships and give everyone some generic thing called "Ship" and all modules so they can implement 1 item called "Module" so everyone can be on an even playing field from day 1 right?

that is not what i meant, allow me to clarify.

ships should be diverse; however, useless ships are a waste of assets such as the ship model itself, and they only create the illusion of diversity.
if a ship's intended use is to be an entry level combat frigate it's a fine role i guess. but saying a Condor *has* to be worse than a Kestrel because one is higher-tiered is wrong in my opinion.

i just locked an open door.. strange, yet symbolically compelling.
Ottersmacker
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#79 - 2011-12-06 17:23:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Ottersmacker
we were ganked double post i am sorry

i just locked an open door.. strange, yet symbolically compelling.
whatever whateverson
Doomheim
#80 - 2011-12-06 17:29:17 UTC  |  Edited by: whatever whateverson
Ottersmacker wrote:
Barakkus wrote:
Ottersmacker wrote:
the tiered ship system

Then CCP should remove all ships and give everyone some generic thing called "Ship" and all modules so they can implement 1 item called "Module" so everyone can be on an even playing field from day 1 right?

that is not what i meant, allow me to clarify.

ships should be diverse; however, useless ships are a waste of assets such as the ship model itself, and they only create the illusion of diversity.
if a ship's intended use is to be an entry level combat frigate it's a fine role i guess. but saying a Condor *has* to be worse than a Kestrel because one is higher-tiered is wrong in my opinion.


Yeah but there are other ships where the reverse is true, you are seriously arguing a major design choice and youropinion might have been appreciated back in 2003 when they decided on such game defining mechanics/features. You will have better luck designing a new game from scratch, but I think all the rest of us will play eve and your game would fail.

This thread is stupid, OPwants logi tech2, instead of training forit and taking the time to do so that the rest ofus have he wants the game changed to save him time and effort. You remind me of WoWplayers who want new characters to start at level 80 because of same argument, being lazy!

PS: All ships has at least one good use!