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Crime & Punishment

 
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Whats the point

Author
DJentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#41 - 2014-06-27 15:43:36 UTC
Oshia Launay wrote:
There's an easy solution here: declare war on corps that are able and willing to fight back.

Yeah, I know, it's scary.



There are many players, myself included, who prefer to go for fights that result in the most win for me and the most loss for my enemy. I'd much prefer to hit my enemy in a way that presents as little risk for me as is possible.

This is due to playing a character who could care less about lofty and silly e-bushido and internet-spaceship honor and really only cares about winning.

Also, if you look at this from a RL standpoint - what military commander would really have a meeting with his generals that went something like this:

"Well, men - after our scouts and intel gathering units did their job, we see two possible ways to attack our enemy."

"The first is to take advantage of our enemy during a situation where they are mostly defenseless and will present little risk or loss of units to us, and has a nearly 100% chance to resulting in serious damage to the enemy."

"The second is to attack our enemy during a time that they are 100% combat ready, probably aware of our intentions, and will result in heavy losses on both sides. However, it will be a very honorable fight!"

I'd go with the first and also posit that any military force that really felt the second was the best move is really bad at what they do :)
flakeys
Doomheim
#42 - 2014-06-27 15:58:19 UTC
No Lube ForU wrote:
Grenadier Greyback wrote:
Whereas I agree that the wardec mechanics do need a little tweaking to avoid instant corp-jumping, your tears are almost as salty as a raging care bear.

just keep your head still while I hold this jug under your chin


You know, ganking helpless indy bears isn't the only thing you can do in high-sec right?



Well I wouldn't say I am a hard core ganker. This is my second dec and only 2 ganks. I have less than 3 mil skillpoints but still enjoying the game. What more is there to do in hi sec ?? ohhh wait ya mean go mine or grind mishs all day or the clicky clicky PI stuff ?? no thanks. I wanna play to have fun lol If ya want more tears I can whine about all the probs in the game but I haven't got all year and I sure you don't either lol




Grow a pair and go to low-sec / null-sec maybe ? .....

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#43 - 2014-06-27 16:02:31 UTC
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
War decs are broken and have been for as long as I have played eve. If folk want to avoid a dec they will - even if they couldnt leave their corp - all they will do is dock up for the duration and play their alts or not log in at all. To fix war decs, ccp has to give them a purpose - there must be something important/valuable that is at stake beyond just the pvp - unless the defending players feel that they have something to lose then they have no stake in the dec and will rightly come to the conclusion that why should they engage you merely to give you entertainment. Edit: I should add that the addition of POCOs was a small step in the direction of meaningful decs.
It's funny how that never falls the other way, that the declaring party needs to put more on the line. A lot of wardecs you see in this game are just combat capable pilots paying a small sum of isk to be able to attack smaller, newer or non-combat oriented groups. A lot of the complaints are "make wardecs unavoidable! They must fight!" but what will that really do? All it will do is give a lot of people yet another reason to quit or to get pushed into big blue blocks in null, since staying in highsec would be suicide unless you were intending to get involved in empire PVP.

It's generally a good game design to have an area where people can start and can feel safe, so at the very worst they have a safe haven to fall back on. If NPC corps got nuked and wardecs became more severe and less avoidable (like most wardeccers seem to ask for), that safe haven would be gone, so if people lost most of their stuff they can look forward to going to a place they can lose the rest.

At the end of the day all it would create is EVE with less players. I'd rather have people floating around highsec shooting red crosses and occasionally getting involved in one thing or another than have the population cut down by an utter intolerance of people who want to just play in safety. It's not like a highsec PVE carebear affects my ability to play in any way, so why not just leave them be?

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flakeys
Doomheim
#44 - 2014-06-27 16:04:53 UTC
DJentropy Ovaert wrote:
Oshia Launay wrote:
There's an easy solution here: declare war on corps that are able and willing to fight back.

Yeah, I know, it's scary.



There are many players, myself included, who prefer to go for fights that result in the most win for me and the most loss for my enemy. I'd much prefer to hit my enemy in a way that presents as little risk for me as is possible.

This is due to playing a character who could care less about lofty and silly e-bushido and internet-spaceship honor and really only cares about winning.

Also, if you look at this from a RL standpoint - what military commander would really have a meeting with his generals that went something like this:

"Well, men - after our scouts and intel gathering units did their job, we see two possible ways to attack our enemy."

"The first is to take advantage of our enemy during a situation where they are mostly defenseless and will present little risk or loss of units to us, and has a nearly 100% chance to resulting in serious damage to the enemy."

"The second is to attack our enemy during a time that they are 100% combat ready, probably aware of our intentions, and will result in heavy losses on both sides. However, it will be a very honorable fight!"

I'd go with the first and also posit that any military force that really felt the second was the best move is really bad at what they do :)



Difference being your military commander would know his pilots once dead are actually really dead ... unlike in eve.Most people prefer to engage when they think they have a decent chance to win , people like you only engage when there is allmost 100% certainty their opposer has no chance in hell to beat you.There is a HUGE difference there .

And what you mean to say is ''Some people are alll about fapping over a k/d ratio and too scared to loose a ship because of that k/d ratio or because they generally truly SUCK at using their brain in a way to learn how to make easy isk without much effort.But if you enjoy that playstyle then by all means do so , allthough to me that sounds even less fun then mining and MAN mining is SO utterly boring.


Glad i could be of assistance ....

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.

DJentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#45 - 2014-06-27 16:16:41 UTC  |  Edited by: DJentropy Ovaert
flakeys wrote:


And what you mean to say is ''Some people are alll about fapping over a k/d ratio and too scared to loose a ship because of that k/d ratio or because they generally truly SUCK at using their brain in a way to learn how to make easy isk without much effort.But if you enjoy that playstyle then by all means do so , allthough to me that sounds even less fun then mining and MAN mining is SO utterly boring.


Glad i could be of assistance ....


rofl!

A fast look at my killboard will show that I have no fear of losing a ship. It will also show you I could care less about my k/d ratio or killboards in general - but being in the top 100 players in terms of ISK destroyed on a character that is like 7 months old is kinda lulzy and a lot of fun :)

I simply try to pick battles that I will probably win, and prefer using good planning and effort to find fights that I will probably win. I use every aspect of game mechanics that I can possibly use to give myself the biggest advantage that I can possibly give myself.

And yes, I enjoy winning fights and have a lot of fun when doing it. I enjoy losing fights as well, but if you give me the choice? I would prefer to win rather then lose. :)
Tengu Grib
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2014-06-27 17:18:37 UTC
I love it when people comment on the mentality and decision making process of New Order members without any genuine conception of what actually motivates us or how we think. DJ is spot on with his statements. I too look to maximize my chance of victory using the mechanics provided. I'm not against taking risks, but I make sure that they are calculated risks. I'm not against loosing ships, but I try to avoid needlessly loosing ships. If loosing some ships is required for victory, so be it.

Rabble Rabble Rabble

Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.

De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2014-06-27 17:44:02 UTC
Without going into the philosopy of the new order, or what makes them tick, let's step back and look at a couple of broad generalities as postulates:

1. People like to win.
2. People hate to lose.

If I have the opportunity to maximize my winning and minimize my losing, I'm going to take it. If that means that I bring a 10 - 1 numerical advatage to a fight, then guess what - here comes the blob. Guess why we have blob warefare? Because it dovetails very neatly with postulates 1 and 2 above.

If we accept that 1 and 2 are true, then it becomes very clear why people dock up and "turtle" when they get wardecced. They have assessed the strategic landscape and decided that not losing is the best "win" they can get, especially if they know you're not having any fun hanging around outside waiting for them to log on and do something foolish.

Add to all of that, the simple fact that some people are very risk averse, which in turn means that they place a higher value on not losing than they do on trying to win. Smaller corporations in highsec also tend to be made up of one dude's alts, or real life friends who are, frankly, not in the sandbox to play with anyone but themselves (that may have come out wrong).

When you find a corp that will fight you it's because
A) They know they can stomp a mudhole in your ass due to out of corp alt support, pure numerical superiority, or some other advantage that's hard to counter,
B) they have more to lose by not fighting,
C) they are convinced they can win enough to make the outcome more or less equally painful, or
D) they are the rare breed that cares more about having fun in a game than "winning" it.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2014-06-27 19:16:25 UTC
Tengu Grib wrote:
I love it when people comment on the mentality and decision making process of New Order members without any genuine conception of what actually motivates us or how we think. DJ is spot on with his statements. I too look to maximize my chance of victory using the mechanics provided. I'm not against taking risks, but I make sure that they are calculated risks. I'm not against loosing ships, but I try to avoid needlessly loosing ships. If loosing some ships is required for victory, so be it.

I however am for needlessly losing ships! If you gate camp a random lowsec system near rens long enough I'll probably stumble into it with a 50-100m isk ishkur or enyo.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#49 - 2014-06-27 19:52:08 UTC
People are comparing picking easy targets for highsec war to attacking the enemy when they're unprepared. This would be true if the enemy was ever prepared.

A better comparison would be I'm angry and want to fight someone. I could punch this guy that's about my size but he might hit back... Wait there's a 7 year old girl... She should be an easy knock out!
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#50 - 2014-07-08 13:01:34 UTC
Wardecs are not pointless, it just happens that a lot of people utilize wardecs to satisfy their casual PVP desires instead of achieving strategical objectives.

Take POCO's for instance. You cannot transfer a POCO when your corp is at war. Unlike POS, these cannot be unanchored and cannot be made exempt from the wardec. Looking at it from a post-Rubicon perspective the 'old school' grief wardeccers are indeed just looking for easy kills, or carebear disruption at best (which on it's own, can be a short-term objective).

Also, don't forget the phychological impact a wardec can have. When people start to leave a corp because of a wardec, what does this mean? None of them are willing to fight when it matters! None of them will take one for the team... well, some team they are. How would you feel being CEO of a group that flees at the slightest threat to their ships and assets? How would you like being proven your corporation consists of egoist ISK hoarders with little desire to defend the idea, the concept, behind your corp?
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