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Which dread to pick? (post Phoenix buff)
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I am Placeholder
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-06-26 02:24:36 UTC
I am approaching the point where I need to decide which racial dread skillbook to inject. At the moment I am leaning towards the Nag. From the reading I have done, it has the second best damage and tracking, great appllication at various ranges can choose its ammo type and has a strong cap due to capless guns.

I won't be buying a dread yet because I have no use for one at the moment. When I do get one, however, I'd like to have a versatile one that's good in general structure bash/capital shooting and also wormhole pve. I came to the conclusion that the nag was the best choice.

Is this still the case after the Phoenix buff? How does it compare to the other dreads now? What would be the advantages of going for a Moros instead, apart from increased damage?
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#2 - 2014-06-26 03:09:11 UTC
Seeing as a Dreads main purpose is to deal damage and usually you will be cynoed in at an ideal range so the range isn't too much of a concern, the Moros is easily the best Dread. For wormhole PvE you really need a gun dread since even with alot of web/paint support I don't think a Phoenix can deal it's full damage to sleepers. Same goes for PvP, you really need a gun dread to blap subcapitals which the Phoenix just can't do. The Nag is a decent choice as well, and if you like it more it can still work well for structure bashing/wormhole PvE. The Nag also has the nice advantage that it's guns can't be neuted out and in WH PvP people will often bring Bhaals to counter dreads. In the end its a personal preference thing, I'd still say the Moros is the best but the Nag is a close second.
I am Placeholder
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-06-26 03:11:41 UTC
Good reply. Thanks.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#4 - 2014-06-26 14:42:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
I would argue that the Phoenix is nearly the best dread available. It has a few things working for it:

1. Capless weapons.
2. 100% damage type selection.
3. Most durable dread by a large margin.

Unfortunately, Capital Missiles are abysmally horrible, and as long as they remain so, the Phoenix will be a lousy dread.


After the recent changes (even with lousy Capital Missiles), the Phoenix is arguably the best dread if you're in a situation where a Phoenix would live through it's siege cycle to get repped whereas another dread wouldn't (Dead dreads do no DPS).

But in literally any other situation (and arguably even that one), any other dread is better than a Phoenix. But don't blame the Phoenix, blame Capital Missiles. If they weren't slow, easily firewalled by smartbombs, and speed/sig-tankable by capital ships, let alone subcaps, the Phoenix would be great.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2014-06-26 15:11:39 UTC
I have to agree with Dato - both the Moros and the Naglfar are good all around general purpose dreads. You really can't go wrong with either one, so it's more a matter or preferences.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2014-06-26 22:40:26 UTC
The current list IMO is:
1. Phoenix
2. Naglfar
3. Moros
4. Revelation

Explanation:
The Moros gets highest dps but it's therm/kin. The Naglfar does the same effective damage vs. anything without a therm/kin hole while burning less ammo, overheating better, staying above jump cap and being able to tank at the same time.

The Revelation is a straight up worse Moros.

The Phoenix does best dps vs anything due to torpedoes doing pure damage. Has the best tank while full gank fitted and needs no cap. For sub-caps, your target needs to be not only webbed but also painted but any decent support fleet for blab dreads should supply that. Bonus for having best alpha in the game.

Notes:
Dreads can be used for multiple things:
- shooting subcaps
- shooting structures/caps
- suicide dropping vs supercaps
- escalations in W-space
And depending on fleet sizes, tanking one to survive a single siege cycle is more than worth it.
Chris Winter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-06-27 04:39:30 UTC
Phoenix doesn't have "best dps vs anything."

For subcaps, webbing and painting a ship isn't enough to get the citadel missiles to fully apply damage.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#8 - 2014-06-27 09:58:08 UTC
Moros / Nag are basically identical. Moros has more armorbuffer, nag more shieldbuffer.
Dps wise you'll sit around (heated) 16.5k dps for a moros or 14.8k for a nag running gankfits. Afterwards there is a long time nothing and eventually the crappy pseudodreads rev&phoenix try to argue why they aren't utter crap at like 70% of the others' dps.

The tanking bonus for the phoenix is largely irrelevant given the massive downsides from capital missiles (when you can apply a fraction of your dps using missiles, you could use moros/nag and hit for 100% damage already), the Rev is just a massive mistake at the moment.

So: Need a dread? Get a moros. Need a dread that is good at wormholes/active tanking? Get a nag.
If you accidentaly got a phoenix or Rev, should try to sell it asap and get a real dread.
Tuvar Hiede
Solidified Encounter
Solidified Strike Network
#9 - 2014-06-27 10:19:37 UTC
I've always enjoyed a Moros over the other Dreads, but like all things in EVE it's about personal preference. One think about the REV though is it never needs to reload, has better survivability, and if you like Amarr why change training right? Still I'd take my Moros over a Rev.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2014-06-27 10:31:20 UTC
Moros: best at PVE
Naglfar: best all-round
Phoenix: easily best small-scale capital killer
Revelation: best at being reprocessed?
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#11 - 2014-06-27 10:54:48 UTC
Think it will be pretty hard to kill a armor-pve fleet with a phoenix. With a singular damage type, resists for the chosen damage will be bricked in notime. I know there are many workarounds, but this is actually what happens. RAH and down the gutter with that phoenix.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-06-27 12:17:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Don't use a singular damage type on a Phoenix then, that's easy.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#13 - 2014-06-27 12:54:16 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Don't use a singular damage type on a Phoenix then, that's easy.


Actually, yes. Loading three damage types in three launchers would save some people a lot of embarassment.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-06-27 13:09:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Don't use a singular damage type on a Phoenix then, that's easy.


Actually, yes. Loading three damage types in three launchers would save some people a lot of embarassment.


Yeah. It's easy to get stuck in a "must link all weapons" mindset.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2014-06-27 18:09:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Lunkwill Khashour
Reactive hardeners are useless. Phoenix lives by alpha. You'll only be hit once and that's it, so your hardener won't ever have time to adjust.

Example for subcap work:

[Phoenix, Subcap]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Domination Target Painter
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Capital Neutron Saturation Injector I
Shield Boost Amplifier II

Siege Module II
Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Guristas Nova Citadel Cruise Missile
Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Guristas Nova Citadel Cruise Missile
Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Guristas Nova Citadel Cruise Missile

Capital Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Capital Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Capital Warhead Flare Catalyst I

You'll need some implants to handle CPU or alternative put some isk in CPU efficient faction items. This Phoenix does its own target painting so you just need webbing support, like any blap dread.

Versus a standard Baltech Megathron:
- 3 of these will alpha (about 165k volley vs 135k EHP)
- the volley comes every 15s
- lock time is 20s
- it will tank the damage output of 33 Baltech megas for as long as cap lasts (> 2 min)
- range is from 0km to however far your support can web
- this is without heat, links or drugs on either side

The Moros seems great but versus the Baltech omnitank Fusion is 19% more effective than Antimatter and Explosive 23% more effective.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#16 - 2014-06-27 18:24:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Reactive hardeners are useless. Phoenix lives by alpha. You'll only be hit once and that's it, so your hardener won't ever have time to adjust.

Example for subcap work:

[Phoenix, Subcap]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Domination Target Painter
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Capital Neutron Saturation Injector I
Shield Boost Amplifier II

Siege Module II
Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Guristas Nova Citadel Cruise Missile
Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Guristas Nova Citadel Cruise Missile
Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Guristas Nova Citadel Cruise Missile

Capital Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Capital Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Capital Warhead Flare Catalyst I

You'll need some implants to handle CPU or alternative put some isk in CPU efficient faction items. This Phoenix does its own target painting so you just need webbing support, like any blap dread.

Versus a standard Baltech Megathron:
- 3 of these will alpha (about 165k volley vs 135k EHP)
- the volley comes every 15s
- lock time is 20s
- it will tank the damage output of 33 Baltech megas for as long as cap lasts (> 2 min)
- range is from 0km to however far your support can web
- this is without heat, links or drugs on either side

The Moros seems great but versus the Baltech omnitank Fusion is 19% more effective than Antimatter and Explosive 23% more effective.


Just go away with your Phoenix, by the time you fire ze missiles and hit the first one a Moros or Nag are done with what didn't warp off already.


Not to mention those gigantic 6k dps resulting from an ~80k volley every 14secs compared to the 45k+ a moros or nag puts out... every ~4 seconds.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#17 - 2014-06-27 18:33:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Val'Dore
The Phoenix is the best Dreadnought, but it is the worst Blapnought.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Chris Winter
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#18 - 2014-06-27 18:53:27 UTC
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Reactive hardeners are useless. Phoenix lives by alpha. You'll only be hit once and that's it, so your hardener won't ever have time to adjust.

Example for subcap work:

[Phoenix, Subcap]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Domination Target Painter
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Capital Neutron Saturation Injector I
Shield Boost Amplifier II

Siege Module II
Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Guristas Nova Citadel Cruise Missile
Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Guristas Nova Citadel Cruise Missile
Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Guristas Nova Citadel Cruise Missile

Capital Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Capital Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Capital Warhead Flare Catalyst I

You'll need some implants to handle CPU or alternative put some isk in CPU efficient faction items. This Phoenix does its own target painting so you just need webbing support, like any blap dread.

Versus a standard Baltech Megathron:
- 3 of these will alpha (about 165k volley vs 135k EHP)
- the volley comes every 15s
- lock time is 20s
- it will tank the damage output of 33 Baltech megas for as long as cap lasts (> 2 min)
- range is from 0km to however far your support can web
- this is without heat, links or drugs on either side

The Moros seems great but versus the Baltech omnitank Fusion is 19% more effective than Antimatter and Explosive 23% more effective.

Your math is awful.

A single target painter isn't anywhere near enough to apply full damage to a battleship. Even if it's webbed to a standstill, you'll still be doing much less than full damage to the target.

Look up the missile damage formula (or heck, just use EFT) and then re-do your numbers.
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2014-06-28 02:31:20 UTC
I am Placeholder wrote:
I am approaching the point where I need to decide which racial dread skillbook to inject. At the moment I am leaning towards the Nag. From the reading I have done, it has the second best damage and tracking, great appllication at various ranges can choose its ammo type and has a strong cap due to capless guns.

I won't be buying a dread yet because I have no use for one at the moment. When I do get one, however, I'd like to have a versatile one that's good in general structure bash/capital shooting and also wormhole pve. I came to the conclusion that the nag was the best choice.

Is this still the case after the Phoenix buff? How does it compare to the other dreads now? What would be the advantages of going for a Moros instead, apart from increased damage?


Phoenix is shield.

Nobody uses shield caps.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
O'nira
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#20 - 2014-06-28 06:10:26 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
I am Placeholder wrote:
I am approaching the point where I need to decide which racial dread skillbook to inject. At the moment I am leaning towards the Nag. From the reading I have done, it has the second best damage and tracking, great appllication at various ranges can choose its ammo type and has a strong cap due to capless guns.

I won't be buying a dread yet because I have no use for one at the moment. When I do get one, however, I'd like to have a versatile one that's good in general structure bash/capital shooting and also wormhole pve. I came to the conclusion that the nag was the best choice.

Is this still the case after the Phoenix buff? How does it compare to the other dreads now? What would be the advantages of going for a Moros instead, apart from increased damage?


Phoenix is shield.

Nobody uses shield caps.


i'm sorry buddy but if you dont use shields on dreads you are a moron
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