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New PVE content for [CRIUS] and beyond
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Velicitia
XS Tech
#21 - 2014-06-04 14:34:19 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:
Creating always new PVE "content" is extremely costly and serves only a marginal clientele in EVE, who are categorically never satisfied anyway. It's a rational decision to focus on developing flexible game mechanics that provide enjoyment, challenges and player interaction on a long term basis.



If the hisec folks who like this sort of content are such a small number how come the PvP focused folks keep moaning about hisec numbers and profits?


You can (in comparatively high levels of safety) make several tens of millions of ISK per hour with missions alone ... and that's not even thinking about Incursions ... and invention... etc.

Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Done right it would not be costly, that's the whole point of Content Management. It would be simple to add new, remove old, balance loot etc across the board and on top of that add an underlying plot to the lore. Also don't forget that the marginal clientele underpin the industry of eve and will under no circumstances move to losec or null. They are paying customers too so if PvE is cut or nerfed you start to lose players and the bedrock of eve's economy.

There needs to be both productive and enjoyable PvP *and* PvE for Eve to continue growing


EVE is not a typical MMO. The focus is not on "get to level 20/40/60/80/100 and wait til the next patch in 9 months to get new content" ... but rather on human interaction.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-06-04 14:53:16 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:

Nobody moans about hisec numbers, most of the characters there are alts, bots and people on shopping trips or otherwise traversing hisec. Profits form hisec PVE are a separate issue and frankly those who keep whining about that are somehow obsessed- how much anyone else makes ISK shouldn't be an issue to anyone sane.


Agree completely on beong obsessed with others gameplay, play the game how you want and leave others to their choices is my view. I have seen several times people commenting about the numbers in hisec but as you say many will be alts. But many aren't. It would be interesting to see numbers on players who have their mains in hisec and alts elsewhere...

Aiyshimin wrote:
I don't agree with content creation being "simple"- you always need scriptwriting talent to write descriptions and stories, and developing development tools is itself costly. And in the end you will end up shooting red crosses, structures or picking up objects. On top of that, a typical mission runner does not in fact enjoy challenges or changes, but enjoys low-effort grinding gameplay. Otherwise they would not keep running the same handful of L4s year after year in the same ships and fits.


Sorry, I meant the technical aspect of content creation, the story and plot is a different matter and would take someone skilled in such things. However we do see live events often enough and new PvE content introduced to that would benefit from a standardized means to implement missions and events. This would allow whoever in CCP organizes these things much better control over such things.

Aiyshimin wrote:

The mission runners of hisec do not in any way, shape or form underpin EVE's economy or industry, the people who keep our wheels rolling are an entirely separate demographic of much more invested and networked players spread across all over the space. Hisec mining plays a major role in supplying the industry, and until Crius manufacturing and R&I takes place in the safety of hisec, but that is going to change in a major way.


Again apologies, I meant hisec as a whole. However the mission runners generate isk and LP that then goes into the economy. They buy officer mods that someone else finds in lo/nullsec, they use ammo, they buy ships etc etc.

To my mind PvE and PvP are intrinsically linked. The officer mods is a case in point since someone is making nice isk of them but grabbing them from losec/null creates likely PvP content.

Aiyshimin wrote:

Anyway, this is all unrelated to PVE and actually just reinforces my point about the importance of focus on long-lasting game mechanics that allow people to be proactive components of the virtual world instead of content consumers.



Again agreed on the long lasting mechanism, which is why I propose one for creating PvE content more easily and using it to keep missions fresh and randomized, to introduce events, to create anomalies and sigs. Again those that pay or plex and live in hisec deserve some attention too rather than continually being continually coerced into lower security areas. The new mordus sites and such in losec are a good way to entice players into those areas. That's a better way to have those that are willing to move to do so.
Systemlord Rah
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2014-06-04 15:01:08 UTC
if i understand correctly he wants conten for pve players release every 6-12
weeks with the results changing based on player interaction with the content

and the pvp players are against it since its no pvp and its complicatet and expensive and boring
....wait

the playerbase (pvp) says pve is boring
while the playerbase(pve) wants more content and thinks pvp is boring

it dosnt matter what the pvp base thinks pve is also a part off eve
if you think that in empire are only bots and alts fine

i m for my part see another side mind explaining that to me over x systems in 0.0 local count from 0 to 10 max 40
how can i not see the pvp group the minority not the pve group


Velicitia
XS Tech
#24 - 2014-06-04 15:18:54 UTC
Systemlord Rah wrote:
if i understand correctly he wants conten for pve players release every 6-12
weeks with the results changing based on player interaction with the content

and the pvp players are against it since its no pvp and its complicatet and expensive and boring
....wait

the playerbase (pvp) says pve is boring
while the playerbase(pve) wants more content and thinks pvp is boring

it dosnt matter what the pvp base thinks pve is also a part off eve
if you think that in empire are only bots and alts fine

i m for my part see another side mind explaining that to me over x systems in 0.0 local count from 0 to 10 max 40
how can i not see the pvp group the minority not the pve group





hint -- the core gameplay / story of EVE is "human conflict"

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-06-04 16:32:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
Velicitia wrote:
Systemlord Rah wrote:
if i understand correctly he wants conten for pve players release every 6-12
weeks with the results changing based on player interaction with the content

hint -- the core gameplay / story of EVE is "human conflict"


and the pvp players are against it since its no pvp and its complicatet and expensive and boring
....wait

the playerbase (pvp) says pve is boring
while the playerbase(pve) wants more content and thinks pvp is boring

it dosnt matter what the pvp base thinks pve is also a part off eve
if you think that in empire are only bots and alts fine

i m for my part see another side mind explaining that to me over x systems in 0.0 local count from 0 to 10 max 40
how can i not see the pvp group the minority not the pve group



I thought the core gameplay was that we are in a sandbox and do what we choose and enjoy...

It is in my opinion not a good idea to keep telling those who live in hisec that they are somehow playing the game wrong and should move to other areas. Oh and we'll keep breaking your shovel and bucket until you go build sandcastles where we want.

If large sections of players engage in certain activities then those activities deserve dev time too whether they are in PvP, PvE ro any combination of the two. I even include game activities where the player doesn't even undock as they are playing in their bit of the sandbox how they choose.

If something is broken then fine, go fix it. If something just isn't going quite the way it was envisioned then the original vision may need to be re-addressed and possibly tweaked.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#26 - 2014-06-04 18:52:35 UTC
u keep putting words in other ppls mouths. No one is saying u must PvP, we're saying PvP is the core of this game. No one is saying high sec players are second class citizens (well maybe null seccers do), we're saying PvP and conflict drivers are more important. No one is saying PvE doesnt deserve dev time, we're saying what ur asking for may be a massive amount of dev time on a part of the game that has low demand and we'd prefer priorities placed else where. id be more inclined to support the idea if it didnt look like it was going to be so time consuming.

Ppl who want to minimize their PvP interactions joined this game of their own volition. im not going to join WoW and say they must make non-consensual PvP a part of the game. or donate money to star citizen and say it needs dinosuars. Stop saying they have rights to this or that. No one has any right to any design decision no matter how much they pay. But if u have a good idea or argument (which 'but we pay too' is not) then feel free to share with CCP and the community.

ppl who JUST PvE are not the ones who hold up the economy of eve. PvP players are also ratting, PvP players are also doing industry, PvP players are also doing exploration. But just as important as all that, PvP players are destroying ships. The economy is not held up by carebears. Nor are these carebears going to quit because they dnt get new arcs several times a year. The economy will be just dandy without this idea, and it has no bearing on whether this idea should be implemented or not.

Systemlord Rah wrote:

i m for my part see another side mind explaining that to me over x systems in 0.0 local count from 0 to 10 max 40
how can i not see the pvp group the minority not the pve group


because there is no PvP in hi-sec Roll

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Warcalibre
NovaTech Holdings
#27 - 2014-06-04 19:03:11 UTC
How about procedurally generated missions? This is kind of already in place in missions like DPS which has random spawns.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#28 - 2014-06-04 19:19:02 UTC
Warcalibre wrote:
How about procedurally generated missions? This is kind of already in place in missions like DPS which has random spawns.


now this is fairly straight forward. It requires a lot of work to overhaul the system, but once that work is complete its low effort to maintain. It has better replayability and u can update it when u need to and have the time. I am very much for this depending on how much demand this can put on the server to generate levels.

but each individual level doesnt have a unique back story.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Saul Elsyn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-06-04 19:26:39 UTC
Randomization of spawns via a spawn table for missions, improved npc ai, and adjusting npc capabilities to be more in line with pvp loadouts would go a long way to increase the potential PvE replay-ability of mission running.

Most NPC vessels have far longer falloff ranges then player ships, but often times as much as an order of magnitude less damage output. Keeping range or doing damage is less important then simply pumping up the tanking ability of ships, since most of the time players are facing mobs of npc ships with a combined DPS output of only around ~500-1000 DPS for level four missions. These NPCs usually do not have much in the way of reps, an Angel General for example's active tank has an effective tank of 69 DPS and only activates 61% of the time.

You can get 70 DPS without a single damage module, easily. The 'classic' T2 fitted mission running Drake remains viable even with a DPS output of just 135. Essentially, PvE as it is currently, especially for missions, is boring because all you have to do is squeeze as much tank out of your ship and sit back and blow apart the oncoming NPC horde.

You can warp out 90% of the time, no single NPC outside of officer spawns has the firepower to blow through the 900+ Omni tank you can get out of your T2 fitted Drake, and it takes at least four enemy battleships to even tax that tank.

PvE would be much more fun if they cut down the spawn sizes and made the NPCs themselves more dangerous as individuals or small teams.
Illindar Tyrannus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-06-24 07:21:49 UTC
I would love for ccp to use the new dev cycle to bring about new storylines for pve and even expand beyond that maybe one storyline leades to new tension between 2 of the empires leadinf to new types of missions in a later expansion.
Illindar Tyrannus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-06-25 10:38:25 UTC
I do agree that there should be some level of randomness to rats that spawn as well make each mission have a range of possible spawns.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#32 - 2014-06-25 10:42:52 UTC
Rayzilla Zaraki wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
An entire new type of PVE site, 4 new ships, not to mention all the changes to existing content and you still want more?

Maybe you should stop asking to make PVE more like PVP and actually go do PVP.


Not seeing how the OP's offering makes PVE = PVP. PVP has a script like a story and tons of NPCs? Who knew!


You could make a compelling argument that F1-monkey = NPC.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#33 - 2014-06-25 11:42:41 UTC
While I believe that the game needs to have more Pirate Epic Arcs, I strongly disagree with the "need more content!" mentality. CCP is a small company, and they quite simply cannot afford to provide content on a cycling scale like some people desire.

As Daichi said, the game just isn't about that.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Egravant Alduin
Ascendance Rising
Ascendance..
#34 - 2014-06-25 13:39:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Egravant Alduin
I think PVE in EVE is very weak and has a lot of room for improvements and additions.Check my latest post for level 4.5 security missions.

Feel the wrath of the GECKO!
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2014-06-25 18:00:26 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
u keep putting words in other ppls mouths. No one is saying u must PvP, we're saying PvP is the core of this game. No one is saying high sec players are second class citizens (well maybe null seccers do), we're saying PvP and conflict drivers are more important. No one is saying PvE doesnt deserve dev time, we're saying what ur asking for may be a massive amount of dev time on a part of the game that has low demand and we'd prefer priorities placed else where. id be more inclined to support the idea if it didnt look like it was going to be so time consuming.



I certainly didn't mean my opinion to come across this way, my view is and always will be that all things in Eve are PvP in some way. The more pro-PvP players view the hisec types with disdain and the more pro-PvE view the nullsec types as bloodthirsty [insert expletive of your choice] who are just out to ruin others play.

I agree entirely that PvP is required to drive the economy, without destruction there is no requirement for new gear.

I'll try to be more clear in my view of how PvE missions etc need to be evolved.

Firstly the missions need to be randomized. It really wouldn't be that difficult and once it is done you then destroy the insult to players that is eve-survival. I come from a background of arcade games where if you make a mistake you pay again to play so the idea of being able to follow a prescribed set of instructions is just crap to me. Include multiple omni-damage rats in the mix and suddenly missioners would need to run with much more PvP like setups. Once they are doing so and are used to it they may well think what the hell lets try losec.

Secondly I would like to see mission arcs linked in to the mission generation system that are rolled around every so often as the lore moves on. This will allow for events such as the Mordu's Legion ratting to be injected ino the game with minimum effort. These could easily be tied into upcoming live events to prepare and tease people into running the live events too. As they roll out with the advancing lore the missions go to the great plotline in the sky and new ones are injected into the system.

PvE missions, incursions, events etc should be used to drive the lore rather than just saving that stupid bint damsel for the x millionth time. The story driving plot led missions should also lead into losec and at higher levels into nullsec too to draw those with the inclination into losec.

Maybe I'm too much of an old RPG player but their should always be a plot behind any missions otherwise they are purely two dimensional paper exercises. I don't run missions now and have never yet run a level IV mission as they bore me. I do however run the combat anoms and escalations as I enjoy the competitive aspect of getting there ahead of other players/risking life and clone-limb in losec.
Illindar Tyrannus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-06-26 06:44:31 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
u keep putting words in other ppls mouths. No one is saying u must PvP, we're saying PvP is the core of this game. No one is saying high sec players are second class citizens (well maybe null seccers do), we're saying PvP and conflict drivers are more important. No one is saying PvE doesnt deserve dev time, we're saying what ur asking for may be a massive amount of dev time on a part of the game that has low demand and we'd prefer priorities placed else where. id be more inclined to support the idea if it didnt look like it was going to be so time consuming.



I certainly didn't mean my opinion to come across this way, my view is and always will be that all things in Eve are PvP in some way. The more pro-PvP players view the hisec types with disdain and the more pro-PvE view the nullsec types as bloodthirsty [insert expletive of your choice] who are just out to ruin others play.

I agree entirely that PvP is required to drive the economy, without destruction there is no requirement for new gear.

I'll try to be more clear in my view of how PvE missions etc need to be evolved.

Firstly the missions need to be randomized. It really wouldn't be that difficult and once it is done you then destroy the insult to players that is eve-survival. I come from a background of arcade games where if you make a mistake you pay again to play so the idea of being able to follow a prescribed set of instructions is just crap to me. Include multiple omni-damage rats in the mix and suddenly missioners would need to run with much more PvP like setups. Once they are doing so and are used to it they may well think what the hell lets try losec.

Secondly I would like to see mission arcs linked in to the mission generation system that are rolled around every so often as the lore moves on. This will allow for events such as the Mordu's Legion ratting to be injected ino the game with minimum effort. These could easily be tied into upcoming live events to prepare and tease people into running the live events too. As they roll out with the advancing lore the missions go to the great plotline in the sky and new ones are injected into the system.

PvE missions, incursions, events etc should be used to drive the lore rather than just saving that stupid bint damsel for the x millionth time. The story driving plot led missions should also lead into losec and at higher levels into nullsec too to draw those with the inclination into losec.

Maybe I'm too much of an old RPG player but their should always be a plot behind any missions otherwise they are purely two dimensional paper exercises. I don't run missions now and have never yet run a level IV mission as they bore me. I do however run the combat anoms and escalations as I enjoy the competitive aspect of getting there ahead of other players/risking life and clone-limb in losec.



I do agree that there is a need for random elements in pve, while I dont think that every mission needz to be an epic arc I would like to see more of lore related and effecting missions put into the game. Overall I think that pve is one of the areas eve can be improved the most in for the benifit of new and old players..
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#37 - 2014-06-26 13:12:45 UTC
i like plot driven games too. but ur gonna want them to make regular additions indefinitely right?

otherwise we go back to square one where u've ran everything a thousand times and get bored.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#38 - 2014-06-26 15:35:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Daichi Yamato wrote:

For example, all these PvE hungry players. How many of u have ran pirate missions and arcs? theres a whole story to these missions, extra PvE u havent done yet, high rewards and tasty content.


The Pirate missions are not different at all from normal missions. I run them a lot. The arc are interesting concepts, but nothing you can do frequently (every 3 months is not frequently).

Yesterday, however, I had an interesting storyline on one of my chars. High sec, naturally. I should transport some important accounting documents from one station to another a couple of systems away. While AP'ing to that destination, I thought how interesting it would be, if NPC would intercept you randomly in mid warp, trying to "acquire" these documents. This kind of approach would be a differentiating factor.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Illindar Tyrannus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2014-06-27 00:41:12 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
i like plot driven games too. but ur gonna want them to make regular additions indefinitely right?

otherwise we go back to square one where u've ran everything a thousand times and get bored.


With the new development cycle this is now a possibility, they have been looking at content creation tools and have talked about it at fanfest and this could be one of the first projects for those tools once finished.
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