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Problem being podded? (just a warning to others with expensive pods)

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Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#21 - 2011-12-06 13:32:42 UTC
Nice to know it's our fault the client freezes and gets people killed.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#22 - 2011-12-06 13:35:01 UTC
Happens with ships, too....sometimes. Since Crucibal, happens EVERYtime you spam warp-to-0.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
DangerosoDavo
Boob Heads
#23 - 2011-12-06 13:37:24 UTC  |  Edited by: DangerosoDavo
GM Homonoia wrote:
Arkady Sadik wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
However: Spamming a button is never a feature and is never guaranteed to work. Spamming the warp button has never been a 100% guarantee escape and it was definitely not designed to be so. In fact, spamming any button can cause client side lag. It may help you get the perfect timing right, it is just as likely to drown the client or your connection and make things worse.
Well, one thing that is definitely true since Crucible is that the lag caused by "spamming" (I hit the warp button twice a second tops for pod escape, worked very well in the past) is that the client lags a lot more on quite a few situations. This is difficult to bug report, as it's not a single bug you can easily reproduce, but it feels a lot more laggy. And that would indicate a software problem that should be fixed, regardless of whether the "pod escape" is an intended feature or not.


That, unfortunately, is something I cannot really go into as I simply lack the skills (not a programmer or QA person) to delve into this. I realize that bug reporting this isn't easy, but it is still the best way to get programmers to notice.

What I can promise you is that I will keep an eye out for this (both as a game master and as a player) and will pass anything I find up the chain.


okay, after pondering for a few moments on your view i have come to the following conclusion.

Lag due to spamming may infact be possible but looking at the logs it was between 5 and 9 seconds after lossing the ship and being in a pod and being unable to warp the whole time, and again looking at the logs it states the reason as being already in warp. im sure a pod can align and warp in less than 5 seconds even with lag. This indicated a programming/software issue to me. state change problems?

another thing, i had no clientside lag at the time of the incident, you only have my word for this though as i wasnt recording the fight due to 2 scorps decloaking and me thinking it was pointless :D

on a side note:
i had had the issue with session change simply not expireing before since cruicible, ive been sat on a gate for 3 minutes not being able to jump because my session change didn't expire, maybe another state change problem in the client? only relogging fixed the problem.
Paul Clancy
Korpu no Byakko
#24 - 2011-12-06 13:38:46 UTC
KPEMAT0P wrote:
Hi DangerosoDavo,

The issue is not new. It is likely to be ralated to same trick that is preventing/delaying transporters to enter Cloak.
There is a couple of way to create the time delay affecting the user being attacked, but must know is the "Warp to gate trick". This was among others used by a known alliance in Aunenen sinde late summer 2011.

The reason why CCP have not noted the issue. Might be because it is a PVP senario, and all complains about lost ships in PVP situations is considered as "Not eligable for reimbursment". So these tech reports might get low priority.

By the way. Nice work with the new POCO and PI taxes. Its working as intended, and as you already gave a heads up on, several months before the change.



As one being podded in Aunenen - may you say what exacly is this trick? They had themselves warped to gate where I am. yes. Or in moments of ship's destruction they all warping to other gate thus lagging me?
WhyTry1
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#25 - 2011-12-06 13:44:05 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I am not a programmer or designer. My word is not law on this matter.

However: Spamming a button is never a feature and is never guaranteed to work. Spamming the warp button has never been a 100% guarantee escape and it was definitely not designed to be so. In fact, spamming any button can cause client side lag. It may help you get the perfect timing right, it is just as likely to drown the client or your connection and make things worse.

It is really explained by the word "spamming", which is never a good thing. Btw, this is true for almost all software. Even a simple text program will fall behind or filter out some commands when you mash your buttons fast enough, let alone a complex program like EVE.

My only advise is: do not fly what you cannot afford to lose. If your ship gets caught, your pod is in dire straights as well. It may get out, but it may go squish all the same if your attackers are paying attention.


Thats a pretty poor response and excuse.. fix your damn game then...
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#26 - 2011-12-06 13:47:33 UTC
WhyTry1 wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I am not a programmer or designer. My word is not law on this matter.

However: Spamming a button is never a feature and is never guaranteed to work. Spamming the warp button has never been a 100% guarantee escape and it was definitely not designed to be so. In fact, spamming any button can cause client side lag. It may help you get the perfect timing right, it is just as likely to drown the client or your connection and make things worse.

It is really explained by the word "spamming", which is never a good thing. Btw, this is true for almost all software. Even a simple text program will fall behind or filter out some commands when you mash your buttons fast enough, let alone a complex program like EVE.

My only advise is: do not fly what you cannot afford to lose. If your ship gets caught, your pod is in dire straights as well. It may get out, but it may go squish all the same if your attackers are paying attention.


Thats a pretty poor response and excuse.. fix your damn game then...


See the disclaimer above.

All I said is: software breaks when you spam stuff. This is quite universal, especially where the internet is involved.

I also said that I am not a programmer and do not know how this works under the hood, but that I (and my colleague GMs) will keep our eye on this.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#27 - 2011-12-06 13:53:29 UTC
If the warp button highlighted accurately and at the right time after ship destruction (session change) then we wouldn't NEED to spam the warp button.

As it is in game waiting for it to light up will get you killed.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#28 - 2011-12-06 14:44:04 UTC
Bah.

Ping is distance; bandwidth is volume. P
Barakkus
#29 - 2011-12-06 14:44:52 UTC
Turn off camera shake, I lost a pod because of camera shake freezing my client after my ship went pop. After I turned off camera shake I haven't lost a pod to client freeze since.

http://youtu.be/yytbDZrw1jc
DangerosoDavo
Boob Heads
#30 - 2011-12-06 14:47:59 UTC
Barakkus wrote:
Turn off camera shake, I lost a pod because of camera shake freezing my client after my ship went pop. After I turned off camera shake I haven't lost a pod to client freeze since.


client didnt freeze the client bugged out and wouldnt warp, the client itself was perfectly responsive just wasnt acting on the commands it was being given.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#31 - 2011-12-06 15:06:17 UTC
Never spam any button you want to work. Tends to make the action not occur. This is a fact of working with computers, and the sooner you learn it the better.
DangerosoDavo
Boob Heads
#32 - 2011-12-06 15:08:09 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Never spam any button you want to work. Tends to make the action not occur. This is a fact of working with computers, and the sooner you learn it the better.


lol, this guy...
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#33 - 2011-12-06 15:13:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
GM Homonoia wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I am not a programmer or designer. My word is not law on this matter.

However: Spamming a button is never a feature and is never guaranteed to work. Spamming the warp button has never been a 100% guarantee escape and it was definitely not designed to be so. In fact, spamming any button can cause client side lag. It may help you get the perfect timing right, it is just as likely to drown the client or your connection and make things worse.

It is really explained by the word "spamming", which is never a good thing. Btw, this is true for almost all software. Even a simple text program will fall behind or filter out some commands when you mash your buttons fast enough, let alone a complex program like EVE.

My only advise is: do not fly what you cannot afford to lose. If your ship gets caught, your pod is in dire straights as well. It may get out, but it may go squish all the same if your attackers are paying attention.



+1

This game is about a lot of possible choices with a lot of possible consequences or not at all the moment you know what you're doing.

Loosing your ship must be something you consider has a NORMAL thing to happen, loosing your POD is something you have to consider something NORMAL to happen.

This said, you need to help yourself by educate yourself with game mechanics, tips from "scrubs" and "scum" also some of those requiring both named frequently "pirates" because it's easy to put a name on something. (most of those I've known from my beginning until now are the most incredible awesome/honourable people I've ever met in this game)

Yes it hurts when you loose your pod or ship whenever you get ganked at some belt, mission, or your pod by some insta lock arty trasher, sure it sucks and would make mad whoever is less hot head than me, but hey it's a game, you need to learn mechanics the hard way before you know how to deal with.

Even then, whenever you think you already know enough about, you'll always learn something from someone may it be some noob or some bitvet.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2011-12-06 15:14:40 UTC
Ping (in network terms, it does have other uses) is a measure of time pure and simple - this can be easily derived by looking at its units(typically milliseconds).

It can be used to infer network latency between two specific nodes of a particular network (including the Internet), but it is not a direct meaure of anything except the time necessary to travel between two points on the network. What you make of that information is your own business.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
DangerosoDavo
Boob Heads
#35 - 2011-12-06 15:26:50 UTC  |  Edited by: DangerosoDavo
Tanya Powers wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I am not a programmer or designer. My word is not law on this matter.

However: Spamming a button is never a feature and is never guaranteed to work. Spamming the warp button has never been a 100% guarantee escape and it was definitely not designed to be so. In fact, spamming any button can cause client side lag. It may help you get the perfect timing right, it is just as likely to drown the client or your connection and make things worse.

It is really explained by the word "spamming", which is never a good thing. Btw, this is true for almost all software. Even a simple text program will fall behind or filter out some commands when you mash your buttons fast enough, let alone a complex program like EVE.

My only advise is: do not fly what you cannot afford to lose. If your ship gets caught, your pod is in dire straights as well. It may get out, but it may go squish all the same if your attackers are paying attention.



+1

This game is about a lot of possible choices with a lot of possible consequences or not at all the moment you know what you're doing.

Loosing your ship must be something you consider has a NORMAL thing to happen, loosing your POD is something you have to consider something NORMAL to happen.

This said, you need to help yourself by educate yourself with game mechanics, tips from "scrubs" and "scum" also some of those requiring both named frequently "pirates" because it's easy to put a name on something. (most of those I've known from my beginning until now are the most incredible awesome/honourable people I've ever met in this game)

Yes it hurts when you loose your pod or ship whenever you get ganked at some belt, mission, or your pod by some insta lock arty trasher, sure it sucks and would make mad whoever is less hot head than me, but hey it's a game, you need to learn mechanics the hard way before you know how to deal with.

Even then, whenever you think you already know enough about, you'll always learn something from someone may it be some noob or some bitvet.


please take your fingers out of your eyes and stop spouting rubbish, read the thread before posting.

i agree that theres always more to learn,
i agree that you shouldnt fly what you cant afford ot lose.
i understand its just a game.

this:
This said, you need to help yourself by educate yourself with game mechanics, tips from "scrubs" and "scum" also some of those requiring both named frequently "pirates" because it's easy to put a name on something. (most of those I've known from my beginning until now are the most incredible awesome/honourable people I've ever met in this game)

Yes it hurts when you loose your pod or ship whenever you get ganked at some belt, mission, or your pod by some insta lock arty trasher, sure it sucks and would make mad whoever is less hot head than me, but hey it's a game, you need to learn mechanics the hard way before you know how to deal with.

Reply:
no. what we are discussing here is when you are unable to warp away for 5-9 seconds due to no fault of your own and no matter how much to try to escape when you normally should be able to under the circumstances. lossing a pod to an insta lock thrasher is a different story. please dont derail/change the subject. this is not about losing pods and hwo to deal with them this is about the game client being bugged.

read the thread before posting.
Sadayiel
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2011-12-06 16:13:54 UTC
DangerosoDavo wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I am not a programmer or designer. My word is not law on this matter.

However: Spamming a button is never a feature and is never guaranteed to work. Spamming the warp button has never been a 100% guarantee escape and it was definitely not designed to be so. In fact, spamming any button can cause client side lag. It may help you get the perfect timing right, it is just as likely to drown the client or your connection and make things worse.

It is really explained by the word "spamming", which is never a good thing. Btw, this is true for almost all software. Even a simple text program will fall behind or filter out some commands when you mash your buttons fast enough, let alone a complex program like EVE.

My only advise is: do not fly what you cannot afford to lose. If your ship gets caught, your pod is in dire straights as well. It may get out, but it may go squish all the same if your attackers are paying attention.



+1

This game is about a lot of possible choices with a lot of possible consequences or not at all the moment you know what you're doing.

Loosing your ship must be something you consider has a NORMAL thing to happen, loosing your POD is something you have to consider something NORMAL to happen.

This said, you need to help yourself by educate yourself with game mechanics, tips from "scrubs" and "scum" also some of those requiring both named frequently "pirates" because it's easy to put a name on something. (most of those I've known from my beginning until now are the most incredible awesome/honourable people I've ever met in this game)

Yes it hurts when you loose your pod or ship whenever you get ganked at some belt, mission, or your pod by some insta lock arty trasher, sure it sucks and would make mad whoever is less hot head than me, but hey it's a game, you need to learn mechanics the hard way before you know how to deal with.

Even then, whenever you think you already know enough about, you'll always learn something from someone may it be some noob or some bitvet.


please take your fingers out of your eyes and stop spouting rubbish, read the thread before posting.

i agree that theres always more to learn,
i agree that you shouldnt fly what you cant afford ot lose.
i understand its just a game.

this:
This said, you need to help yourself by educate yourself with game mechanics, tips from "scrubs" and "scum" also some of those requiring both named frequently "pirates" because it's easy to put a name on something. (most of those I've known from my beginning until now are the most incredible awesome/honourable people I've ever met in this game)

Yes it hurts when you loose your pod or ship whenever you get ganked at some belt, mission, or your pod by some insta lock arty trasher, sure it sucks and would make mad whoever is less hot head than me, but hey it's a game, you need to learn mechanics the hard way before you know how to deal with.

Reply:
no. what we are discussing here is when you are unable to warp away for 5-9 seconds due to no fault of your own and no matter how much to try to escape when you normally should be able to under the circumstances. lossing a pod to an insta lock thrasher is a different story. please dont derail/change the subject. this is not about losing pods and hwo to deal with them this is about the game client being bugged.

read the thread before posting.


The EVE-O fora ate my post but i recall a fairly odd bug from incarna release that may be related.

Somehow when you spam warp before your ship is destroyed the game bugs and the actual celestial you are warping on the overview doesn't work (be either station/belt/gate/planet) back in the day a rather quick fix was target a different celestial after your pod shows up then hit warp.

This is the kind of bug i was refering on my previous post on this thread (it's not related to lag/ping or whatever mostly the client) and i think it was discussed sometime ago, but well i can;t tell if this was fixed and somehow resurfaced or it was working as intended.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#37 - 2011-12-06 19:33:30 UTC
When MMOs first came out I didn't bother with them because it was understood that being good at them had more to do with your computer and internet connection than any actual game skill.

EVE suffers from this in the extreme when it comes to podkilling mechanics.

Your implants can be a very important part of your strategy/fit. Yet the actual mechanics of how you save your or lose your pod are almost completely out of a players control. I really think this is a weak point of the game that ccp should work on.

Either make the game work so players can get their pod out or they can't. But make the game actually work, and work reliably.

Right now you are supposed to spam warp because that is how you get your pod out. Its just that it is a crap shoot whether it will work or not.

Yet CCP even put more emphasis on this broken aspect of the game by showing implants. I know players wanted it so I don't blame them. But they should make this aspect of the game work reliably.

The problem with client side lag started with incarna it's not new to this release. It may be worse now I am not sure.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Sadayiel
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#38 - 2011-12-06 19:48:41 UTC
Cearain wrote:
When MMOs first came out I didn't bother with them because it was understood that being good at them had more to do with your computer and internet connection than any actual game skill.

EVE suffers from this in the extreme when it comes to podkilling mechanics.

Your implants can be a very important part of your strategy/fit. Yet the actual mechanics of how you save your or lose your pod are almost completely out of a players control. I really think this is a weak point of the game that ccp should work on.

Either make the game work so players can get their pod out or they can't. But make the game actually work, and work reliably.

Right now you are supposed to spam warp because that is how you get your pod out. Its just that it is a crap shoot whether it will work or not.

Yet CCP even put more emphasis on this broken aspect of the game by showing implants. I know players wanted it so I don't blame them. But they should make this aspect of the game work reliably.

The problem with client side lag started with incarna it's not new to this release. It may be worse now I am not sure.



I'm sorry wich part of after your ship blows up, you are granted a 2nd chance to run away before truly die and be penalized (possible Sp loss/ buy a new clone)

The fact ppl was using a fairly odd/tricky mechanic to get an almost insta warp again before they could even get locked.
TBH if you await until your ship explode and then after the pod shows you warp the enemy only can catch you with faster than 1x sec lock tacklers or with Warp bubbles. (assuming having a decent Isp connection and not lagging badly.


TL;DR complain about not be able to use an insta warp when ship explode it's like complain about not be able to instawarp with any kind of ship after undock/use stargate. the only reason ppl ignored this with pods it's just because the pod has been ignored as something valuable aside the little grief/nuissance of get a new clone.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#39 - 2011-12-06 20:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Sadayiel wrote:
Cearain wrote:
When MMOs first came out I didn't bother with them because it was understood that being good at them had more to do with your computer and internet connection than any actual game skill.

EVE suffers from this in the extreme when it comes to podkilling mechanics.

Your implants can be a very important part of your strategy/fit. Yet the actual mechanics of how you save your or lose your pod are almost completely out of a players control. I really think this is a weak point of the game that ccp should work on.

Either make the game work so players can get their pod out or they can't. But make the game actually work, and work reliably.

Right now you are supposed to spam warp because that is how you get your pod out. Its just that it is a crap shoot whether it will work or not.

Yet CCP even put more emphasis on this broken aspect of the game by showing implants. I know players wanted it so I don't blame them. But they should make this aspect of the game work reliably.

The problem with client side lag started with incarna it's not new to this release. It may be worse now I am not sure.



I'm sorry wich part of after your ship blows up, you are granted a 2nd chance to run away before truly die and be penalized (possible Sp loss/ buy a new clone)

The fact ppl was using a fairly odd/tricky mechanic to get an almost insta warp again before they could even get locked.
TBH if you await until your ship explode and then after the pod shows you warp the enemy only can catch you with faster than 1x sec lock tacklers or with Warp bubbles. (assuming having a decent Isp connection and not lagging badly.


TL;DR complain about not be able to use an insta warp when ship explode it's like complain about not be able to instawarp with any kind of ship after undock/use stargate. the only reason ppl ignored this with pods it's just because the pod has been ignored as something valuable aside the little grief/nuissance of get a new clone.



You still don't get it.

We should either be able to instawarp or we shouldn't.

I don't care what they pick. But either way the mechanic should work reliably. It shouldn't be entirely dependant on your computer hardware/client lag or internet connection.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Goose99
#40 - 2011-12-06 20:30:33 UTC
You shouldn't try to warp away when shot, you should just... pop.Bear

Or just press the warp button once. Wait, nothing happens? There's the whole reason ppl spam that button. Kick the lawnmower if it doesn't start. It doesn't help, but what else can you do? Perhaps CCP can feed the hamsters so that they respond to command the first time.Lol