Ships & Modules

- Ecm: Yes, in a duration of 100 hours ecm can be seen to be quite fine, but the pure lack of control for the victim and user makes it awful for usage, and most of all makes it overpowered on some occasions and totally useless on others.

- Ewar: while viable on occasions in bonused ships it does need to have the impact of a full combat ship arsenal when used in away it's supposed to be.
On unbonused ships, one of the problems with armor tanked ships is you get a ton of mid slots to use from time to time, and especially in fleet fights, the only module that gives any use atm is a tracking computer. This needs to change to a point where we'll be thinking how we use those mids to maximize fleet efectiveness (this actually goes a long way to make gallante ship fittings useful and might have an impact that boosts hybrid weaponry "performance"). It also creates more fleet doctrines and mixes it all out. (we don't all wanna fly arty mael or pulse baddon, with the extra spice of drakeathon).

- Tc/te's, while this has an effect on blaster turrets, the effect is small as is the bonus it gives for blasters, the main emphasis should be on making close range weaponry to close range - medium range. Otherwise there will never be room for anything else than alpha volleys and close range weapons with projection to long range (this is relative ofcourse, but with the current warp mechanics we are rather confined.) This though shouldn't mean tc/te's need to oblivioned, alot of thought on this balance should be given and wether something needs to be done to em or not (if other things have effects on the same issue)

- Scorch, it gives pure optimal at barrage optimal+falloff range. The tracking on guns with scorch on is sufficient for the range and as such this isn't problem nor is it valid as arguing on. The range is just purely too much, if you can't see it, something is wrong. I don't mean it needs to be grounded but needs tweeking (wether its in te/tc's or the ammo or what ever). It gets more range than long range weaponry with short range ammo while doing more dmg (and i mean t1 short range faction ammo). This, is a problem.

- Ac's : Very useful on the fast hulls of minmatar, the weapon system itself is very well synergized with the hulls they get fit on. Wether the changes ought to be on it's base falloff, dmg or ammo is somethign to negotiate in. I'd see slight drop of dmg (and i do mean slight) being the best solution without breaking the synergy between the weapon system and hulls.

Maybe this gives you a better idea on what i mean Liang and others reading the post.

Thanks OP for 'confirming' the argument is over.

I really don't get why people are so upset about this hybrid rebalance, for once CCP is actually doing this right by rebalancing instead of creating a new fotm to skill for. Which is why we probably won't see an instant swing in statistics for most ships used either.

I also don't get this notion some people seem to have that every ship should be viable in every situation. Complaints about the Brutix and Hyperion tanking bonuses that's been voiced in some of the hybrid threads comes to mind. I for one love those bonuses, they are pretty awesome if you are doing solo or small gang pvp. The fact that active tanking don't scale well with increasing numbers and thus makes them less viable for bigger fleets shouldn't be an argument for removing such a useful, if niched, bonus. Variety is good, lets keep some.

About Minmatar being over powered, sure, maybe a bit. But not because of their ability to kite and I don't want them nerfed to the point where all i have to do is click approach and hit my mwd to have an instant kill like some seem to think should happen. The problem I see with them is not that the are too good at kiting but that they are good at kiting while at the same time being equally good at almost everything else. Good damage at range, good damage close up, selection of damage types, utility slots with good ability to fit something useful. They are just a bit too versatile and that's a big reason, i think, why they are being used so much. There really aren't that many drawbacks, skill for minmatar and you can kite, brawl, tank, gank. No need to cross train, unless of course you're doing very specific fleet doctrines to get the most out of your fleets like Hellcats, Thundercats or what have you.

And i hope, if CCP decides to do some balancing on Minmatar, that they do it the way they are doing hybrids atm. A lot of small steps intead of the nerfbat.

Double.

It's worth mentioning here as well that CCP Diagoras has kindly provided final blow statistics for a selection of ship types:

Frigates:
Rifter 186,502
Dramiel 120,305
Punisher 44,621
Merlin 37,372
Incursus 35,735

Cruisers:
Cynabal 133,399
Rupture 118,406
Thorax 90,771
Vexor 81,527
Caracal 66,385

HAC:
Vagabond 389,449
Zealot 253,838
Ishtar 152,419
Cerberus 136,244
Muninn 83,884

Battlecruiser:
Drake 732,236
Hurricane 629,933
Harbinger 236,607
Myrmidon 116,046
Brutix 85,931

Battleship:
Megathron 248,100
Armageddon 205,269
Abaddon 198,930
Tempest 172,610
Raven 155,977

Interceptor:
Taranis 110,616
Crow 78,830
Crusader 52,683
Claw 22,226
Malediction 20,363

Carrier:
Thanatos 48,726
Chimera 19,358
Archon 18,985
Nidhoggur 11,592

Strategic Cruiser:
Tengu 104,917
Loki 64,095
Legion 46,875
Proteus 40,945

This, right here, is what still makes me rage.

There are NO kite-fit Minmatar ships which are just as good at "everything else" as other ships. Your typical nanocane gets driven off by a Drake with thunderbolts before it's even got the Drake below 50% shields. Your typical Vaga has half the EHP of your typical Zealot. A kiting rupture is outright terrible if you're not kiting with it. Tornados have less tank than Oracles and Nagas and have less tackle and DPS than Taloses. Nanopests fail against basically everything that can hit out to 20km, because they have terrible ehp and "meh" dps.

There are an incredibly small number of minmatar ships which are imbalanced compared to other races' ships and it has nothing to do with kiting - Thrashers and Sabres come to mind, although I'm not sure how that pans out after the destroyer changes. There's also the Sleip, but that fills an active tanking niche; buffer tanked, an Abso is superior. It's probably more of an issue that the NH/Astarte are bad, rather than that the Sleip/Abso are good.

TL;DR: Stop saying this.

Yeah, if people havent read that comment thread, its worth a look. It has a lot of interesting numbers and stats.

So, WHY are they used more? Because CCP forces people to use them in pvp? No. People choose to use them. So - answer me this: WHY do people choose to use them?

I dont even know why I am trying to reason with people here.

Exactly.

By missileboat, did you mean just drake? And no, it has less to do with "ease", being capless, selectable dmg, and missiles (lulz) and everything to do with drake buffer. Drake is popular despite lulz missiles, not because of it. If it has turret slots, those blob drakes would've been fit differently.

Btw, your cane has launcher highs, so why don't you fill them with hmls and "worry less about range and other turret mechanics?" Oh right, because they suck, and you'd rather fill them with neuts.