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[Discussion] Black Ops Repurpose

Author
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#1 - 2014-06-25 00:37:11 UTC
Hello everybody! I've been thinking about the most overlooked battleship class in the game, Black Ops. They have a huge price tag for a very limited role and see much less use than the other Battleships. I thought I'd try to start a discussion on what they could be made into in their future rebalance to have a much more unique use (think Marauders).

Any ideas you have, shoot! Smile
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#2 - 2014-06-25 00:37:28 UTC
Just a quick idea I thought of- sorry if it's insubstantial.

  • Black Ops get Covert Ops cloak
  • Black Ops get the ability to fit a clone vat bay with a limited number of clones (10 at most)
  • Black Ops get a small Fleet Hangar
  • Black Ops get a Ship Maintenance Bay (say 2 cruisers) only able to accommodate 'stealth ships'
  • (Stealth Bombers, Covert Ops, Expedition Frigates, Astero, Stratios, et cetera)

    This would make Black Ops into stealthy and mobile fleet ships, with the ability to bring in reinforcements effectively and quickly.

    Tell me your thoughts, or your own idea! Big smile
    Aliventi
    Rattini Tribe
    Minmatar Fleet Alliance
    #3 - 2014-06-25 02:02:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
    Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
    Just a quick idea I thought of- sorry if it's insubstantial.

  • Black Ops get Covert Ops cloak
  • Black Ops get the ability to fit a clone vat bay with a limited number of clones (10 at most)
  • Black Ops get a small Fleet Hangar
  • Black Ops get a Ship Maintenance Bay (say 2 cruisers) only able to accommodate 'stealth ships'
  • (Stealth Bombers, Covert Ops, Expedition Frigates, Astero, Stratios, et cetera)

    This would make Black Ops into stealthy and mobile fleet ships, with the ability to bring in reinforcements effectively and quickly.

    Tell me your thoughts, or your own idea! Big smile

    Black Ops BS need none of the things you posted recommend. They don't need a Covert Cloak. They function perfectly fine without one. A vat bay would be completely useless. They don't need to haul extra ships mods or ammo. They do the job they are supposed to, and with some pretty simple changes they can stop being bad.

    BlOps BS need the following things:
    T2 resists
    More fitting so they can fit reasonable DPS/tank without going with faction mods (Pretty much impossible to get a reasonable fit now without faction mods.)

    Specifically each hull needs:
    The Widow needs to lose the ECM bonuses and become a missile DPS ship.
    The Sin needs to become purely hybrid or purely drone based. I would rather see drones personally.

    They need the following bonuses on each ship:
    BS skill:
    5% capacitor recharge time (I personally like recharge time since you hit grid at 25% cap at best. Capacitor amount would work also.)
    5-7.5% Damage (Not ROF)

    BlOps skill:
    5-7.5% Optimal/falloff range or missile velocity
    5-7.5% tracking/explosion velocity

    Role bonuses:
    250% velocity when cloaked
    Can fit Covert Cynosural Field Generator and Covert Jump Portal Generator
    Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds
    No targeting delay after Cloaking Device deactivation

    That's all BlOps BS need. Pretty quick and simple fix. I would love to see the bridging module actually be "build into" the BlOps BS hull instead of it being a separate module. No super need for it to be.

    It allows each part of the Covert Ops line to do what it needs to:
    Stealth bombers do lots of DPS cheaply while only having frigate tank.
    Recons lock down the target through jams, damps, Tracking disruption, neuts, and webs.
    BlOps BS bring the hurt, but die just like any other BS when unsupported.
    Covert haulers to haul/be bridged in with anything extra that is needed.

    I think you will find you are going to have a much harder time rebalancing Recons and Stealth bombers than the BlOps BS.
    Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
    Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
    Arataka Research Consortium
    #4 - 2014-06-25 02:23:29 UTC
    I know what you're saying, but I was talking more about a total repurpose and an entirely new function if that happened- like what they did to marauders.

    But I agree with what you're saying here.
    Aliventi
    Rattini Tribe
    Minmatar Fleet Alliance
    #5 - 2014-06-25 02:33:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
    Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
    I know what you're saying, but I was talking more about a total repurpose and an entirely new function if that happened- like what they did to marauders.

    But I agree with what you're saying here.

    There is no repurpose that needs to happen. All your ideas turn it into a Rorqual or a carrier. If you need that functionality just bring a Rorqual or a carrier along.

    BlOps BS are the kings of bridge in the gang, hit the target, GTFO once the target is dead and before help gets there. What stops it from doing that well are the BlOps BS ship bonuses, lack of T2 resists, and the nightmare they are to fit without faction mods. Bastion was added to mauraders to cement marauders as the kings of solo PvE and give them some usefulness in PvP. BlOps BS don't need that as their unique ability to bridge a gang and jump to cynos is already present. They are specialized hulls that with a little bit of updating can do their specialized role fantastically. No repurpose needed.
    Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
    Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
    Arataka Research Consortium
    #6 - 2014-06-25 02:46:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
    That is a good point. But I'd still like to see them get CovOps cloak- it'd help a lot, especially in any environment where you want to stay hidden (e.g. wormholes)
    Bohneik Itohn
    10.K
    #7 - 2014-06-25 02:51:28 UTC
    The only thing Black Ops need is a use in WH space. Solve that puzzle and you get a cookie.

    Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

    Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.

    Saelem Black
    Cog Banking
    #8 - 2014-06-25 03:10:52 UTC
    I'd love to see them repurposed into proper dps ships. As a former Redeemer pilot, I would have loved the covops cloak. It sucks when your cover gets blown because you.... enter warp. Since my experience is limited to the Redeemer, let me propose a potential change.

    8/4/7 6 turrets (maybe on the abaddon hull, oooohhh)

    Amarr Battleship Bonus:
    7.5% to large energy turret rate of fire per level
    10% to large energy turret optimal range per level

    Blackops Bonus:
    20% reduction in targeting delay after decloaking
    7.5% reduction in isotope consumption for covert jump portal generators.

    Role bonus:
    Can fit covert ops cloaks
    Reactivation timer for cloaks reduced to 10 sec.

    50mbit/s bandwidth, 75 m3 drone bay.

    Enough PG to squeeze on mega beams, (or mega pulses and a moderate tank). Poor alpha, but good for sustained sniping. Good maneuverability, speed, and targeting range. Moderate sensor strength.

    Just my .02 isk
    Aquila Sagitta
    Blue-Fire
    #9 - 2014-06-25 04:53:48 UTC
    Bohneik Itohn wrote:
    The only thing Black Ops need is a use in WH space. Solve that puzzle and you get a cookie.


    My wish list for blops to be used from highclass wh:
  • 50-100% boost to bridge range
  • Reduced mass to normal levels or less
  • Be able to bridge cruisers easier

  • Reasoning:
    I want boosted bridge range because 90% of the time you will find large null operations between 1-2 cynos away. I would love to be able to bridge in bomber gangs on that but trying to burn 2 covert cynos out to there position and coordinate that is difficult. Doubling the range frees up a pilot for joining the bomber wing which is usually a small crew to begin with. Every pilot counts.

    Using just blops out of wh will never be a thing even with Nestor-like mass. Currently 10(+/-2) blops round trip will kill a fresh c5/c6 to null. Using blops as a catapult to drop cloaky t3 gang on unsuspecting nullbears is possible currently but its problematic. Its easier to light a regular cyno and simultaneously jump in a carrier full of t3s and bridge in bombers then have the bombers swap out on grid. A fully cargo fit deemer can bridge about the same number of t3s a carrier can hold. The problem with the deemer is that it can only bridge cloaky t3's which are vastly under powered where as the carrier can hold normal fitted t3s and you have a triage on grid maximizing dps.

    An alternative method that I havent been able to test is using a good ceptor pilot to roam out and find carriers. The ceptor is specially fit for speed and has a cyno. Unless the carrier has drone speed upgrades the ceptor can outrun warriors. When the ceptor finds a carrier it holds it down until the blops is ready to bridge the bomber gang in. Obviously its better to have the gang ready as soon as the carrier is pointed because if the ceptor has drones on it it will only last a few seconds once it slows down to cyno speed.

    If CCP makes it more viable then having to use these methods then I see blops use out of wh's much more prevalent and fun. These methods aren't very fun compared to the other fleets you could be running in the time it takes to set these up.
    Saisin
    Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
    #10 - 2014-06-25 07:40:42 UTC
    Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
    That is a good point. But I'd still like to see them get CovOps cloak- it'd help a lot, especially in any environment where you want to stay hidden (e.g. wormholes)

    I do not believe either Battleship class should have the ability to jump cloaked.
    That would be really bad for the game balance.

    make them warp faster by increasing their cloaked speed yes, but still have to uncloak to warp...

    Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

    Check out the Minarchist Space Project

    Saisin
    Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
    #11 - 2014-06-25 07:43:32 UTC
    Bohneik Itohn wrote:
    The only thing Black Ops need is a use in WH space. Solve that puzzle and you get a cookie.

    It would be neat to have them be able to increase or lower their mass in some capacity up to a maximum mass equivalent to the Orca MWD mass. (300 000 000)

    Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

    Check out the Minarchist Space Project

    Tilly Delnero
    Doomheim
    #12 - 2014-06-25 07:55:06 UTC
    Bohneik Itohn wrote:
    The only thing Black Ops need is a use in WH space. Solve that puzzle and you get a cookie.

    Giving it a small fleet hangar and the ability to refit from might help in that regard, but then it would need to have something removed from it to counterbalance since for a covert fleet that's potentially quite a powerful ability.

    The last thing BlOps need are nerfs in any other areas.
    Aliventi
    Rattini Tribe
    Minmatar Fleet Alliance
    #13 - 2014-06-25 08:37:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
    Bohneik Itohn wrote:
    The only thing Black Ops need is a use in WH space. Solve that puzzle and you get a cookie.

    Why must something be useful in all types of space? You choose to go to space where cynos and hotdropping are not a thing. Why must a cyno and hotdropping ship be molded to be useful for you?

    Saelem Black wrote:
    I'd love to see them repurposed into proper dps ships. As a former Redeemer pilot, I would have loved the covops cloak. It sucks when your cover gets blown because you.... enter warp. Since my experience is limited to the Redeemer, let me propose a potential change.

    8/4/7 6 turrets (maybe on the abaddon hull, oooohhh)

    Amarr Battleship Bonus:
    7.5% to large energy turret rate of fire per level
    10% to large energy turret optimal range per level

    Blackops Bonus:
    20% reduction in targeting delay after decloaking
    7.5% reduction in isotope consumption for covert jump portal generators.

    Role bonus:
    Can fit covert ops cloaks
    Reactivation timer for cloaks reduced to 10 sec.

    50mbit/s bandwidth, 75 m3 drone bay.

    Enough PG to squeeze on mega beams, (or mega pulses and a moderate tank). Poor alpha, but good for sustained sniping. Good maneuverability, speed, and targeting range. Moderate sensor strength.

    Just my .02 isk

    It must have been quite a while since you flew a BlOps BS because what you just posted is a flat out nerf to BlOps BS. There is no targeting delay on BlOps BS once you decloak. So that reduction in targeting delay bonus is useless. The reactivation timer for the cloak is already at 5 seconds, not the 10 seconds you proposed. BlOps BS got a pretty significant upgrade to how many ships they can bridge a few patches ago so the reduction in isotope use is not worth it. You are nerfing the drone bay and removing the tracking bonus.

    Also, BlOps BS DO NOT NEED Covert Ops cloaks. There is simply no useful case in which a covert ops cloak will be beneficial. If you need to warp you align, decloak, and instantly go into warp because of the velocity bonus. Once you land you jump out or recloak. Warping cloaked is not useful because you are already invulnerable when in warp. It doesn't add to the ship as cloaked ships can't harm anything. Also, if you get your Covert Ops cloak CCP will nerf the hulls in some other way to compensate for the buff. Warping cloaked is not worth gimping BlOps BS.

    Tilly Delnero wrote:
    Giving it a small fleet hangar and the ability to refit from might help in that regard, but then it would need to have something removed from it to counterbalance since for a covert fleet that's potentially quite a powerful ability.

    The last thing BlOps need are nerfs in any other areas.

    Again, if you want to refit grab a mobile depot or a carrier and use that to refit. BlOps BS are designed to bridge things and kill things. We already have ships with fleet hangars and refitting other ships. Use those instead of giving BlOps BS a new buff that CCP will compensate for with a nerf.
    Celthric Kanerian
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #14 - 2014-06-25 10:14:17 UTC
    a 5% - 7.5% damage bonus per battleship lvl would be nice... with a total of 6 turrets for those who use turrets.
    Alvatore DiMarco
    Capricious Endeavours Ltd
    #15 - 2014-06-25 10:36:19 UTC
    As someone whose immediate next ship purchase will be a Panther, I am very interested to see what CCPs Fozzie and Rise do with/to Blops BSes.
    Swiftstrike1
    Swiftstrike Incorporated
    #16 - 2014-06-25 13:17:07 UTC
    I would like to see the black ops ships get some sort of logi role. Nothing too powerful, perhaps a 20% bonus per level to the logistics drones.

    We have covert DPS, covert E-WAR and tackle, but no covert logi (Limited edition tournament prize ships don't count!)

    Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

    Swiftstrike1
    Swiftstrike Incorporated
    #17 - 2014-06-25 13:19:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Swiftstrike1
    Woops, double post. *curses the gods of lag*

    Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

    Bohneik Itohn
    10.K
    #18 - 2014-06-25 13:29:18 UTC
    Aquila Sagitta wrote:
    Bohneik Itohn wrote:
    The only thing Black Ops need is a use in WH space. Solve that puzzle and you get a cookie.


    My wish list for blops to be used from highclass wh:
  • 50-100% boost to bridge range
  • Reduced mass to normal levels or less
  • Be able to bridge cruisers easier

  • Reasoning:
    I want boosted bridge range because 90% of the time you will find large null operations between 1-2 cynos away. I would love to be able to bridge in bomber gangs on that but trying to burn 2 covert cynos out to there position and coordinate that is difficult. Doubling the range frees up a pilot for joining the bomber wing which is usually a small crew to begin with. Every pilot counts.

    Using just blops out of wh will never be a thing even with Nestor-like mass. Currently 10(+/-2) blops round trip will kill a fresh c5/c6 to null. Using blops as a catapult to drop cloaky t3 gang on unsuspecting nullbears is possible currently but its problematic. Its easier to light a regular cyno and simultaneously jump in a carrier full of t3s and bridge in bombers then have the bombers swap out on grid. A fully cargo fit deemer can bridge about the same number of t3s a carrier can hold. The problem with the deemer is that it can only bridge cloaky t3's which are vastly under powered where as the carrier can hold normal fitted t3s and you have a triage on grid maximizing dps.

    An alternative method that I havent been able to test is using a good ceptor pilot to roam out and find carriers. The ceptor is specially fit for speed and has a cyno. Unless the carrier has drone speed upgrades the ceptor can outrun warriors. When the ceptor finds a carrier it holds it down until the blops is ready to bridge the bomber gang in. Obviously its better to have the gang ready as soon as the carrier is pointed because if the ceptor has drones on it it will only last a few seconds once it slows down to cyno speed.

    If CCP makes it more viable then having to use these methods then I see blops use out of wh's much more prevalent and fun. These methods aren't very fun compared to the other fleets you could be running in the time it takes to set these up.



    Fair suggestion. Except that everything about the suggestion involves using Blops ships outside of WH's, not in them.

    Black ops have always been able to sit in the hangar array with ease until a decent null connection opens up. What they need is a reason to be flown IN WH's.

    And that's the point. As it stands, using a Black ops for actual WH activity is impossible to conceive, there's just no use for them.

    Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

    Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.

    Ralph King-Griffin
    New Eden Tech Support
    #19 - 2014-06-25 13:39:09 UTC
    from 2012.07.23 soo caveats apply

    CCP Ytterbium wrote:

    Yes, Black Ops definitely need some attention; the main problem with them is the lack of role focus. Some (like the Redeemer or Window) are trying to achieve a purpose directly on the battlefield, similar with recons by having an electronic warfare or damage related bonus. On top of that, they also are trying to fulfill a fleet support role with their cyno capability, which is quite in contradiction with the previous one.

    And they aren't great at both: their raw HP is quite lower than tech 1 battleships (and tech 2 resistance boosts aren't stellar either), have less turret and missile hardpoints than tech 1 counterparts and remain more expensive to run, which doesn't make them appealing for direct engagement purposes. They also lack autonomy in their support role, as they are quite short ranged, fuel hungry and this issue is amplified by their small fuel bay forcing them to rely on other ships to resupply frequently during an operation.

    The current plan is to take one these two listed roles out of the Black Ops ship class and reshape them to do the remaining one well. If they are disruption ships using EW, they should have more presence on the battlefield for their pricetag. If they are support tools for surprise attacks and small gang movement into enemy space, then they should have the proper bay, range and tools to do so accordingly.

    The role dropped out of the Black Ops would then be moved to a new class in the tech 2 battleship range to replace for the loss.

    We acknowledge some entities out there are using Black Ops with great effect when backed up with the proper organization, structure and out-of-the-box thinking to make use of them in unorthodox situations. While we don't want to take that away, Black Ops should be more effective without such heavy commitment into them (a statistic query we ran at the beginning of this year shown there are more Titan than Block Ops pilot on TQ). They should be great force multiplier tools for small groups to take on larger ones by surprise, and should be able to do so relatively well without relying on a dedicated support structure.

    So, when would this be coming out? Unfortunately, not for a while. As explained in the various blogs before, our current priority is to fix tech 1 ships as a whole before moving to more advanced hulls. That is because we need a solid frame of reference to rely on and compare hulls to before we can move to more delicate and complex ships, like Black Ops or tech 3 hulls.


    Also don't forget this is just our long term plan for now, and things may change in the future. In all cases they are not forgotten, but will take time to get to.

    Hope that helps!



    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1684408#post1684408
    Barbara Nichole
    Royal Amarr Institute
    Amarr Empire
    #20 - 2014-06-25 14:20:56 UTC
    sounds like you are looking for a mini cap ship not a battleship.

      - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

    [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]

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