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Dev Blog: Tiptoe Through the Tooltips

First post First post
Author
Wilhelm Ormand
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1161 - 2014-06-23 15:14:01 UTC
Oraac Ensor wrote:
Wilhelm Ormand wrote:
A note to the people complaining that the black box is immersion braking for them: for me personally, immersion braking consists of not instantly having all the necessary information at ones disposal in a futuristic sci-fi world wherein pilots are directly interfaced with their space ships.

I don't understand why this is directed at those of us to whom it's immersion-breaking. The fact that it doesn't break immersion for you has no bearing on the fact that it does for us.

My apologies if you took it in this way. I should have chosen my words a bit more carefull as it does sound a bit blunt. What I meant was that not everyone's immersion is the same and I just wanted to shed some light on other forms of immersion (and things that break that immersion). I hope it's a bit clearer now.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#1162 - 2014-06-24 11:14:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Panterata wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
War Kitten wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:

Gaijin Lanis wrote:
But here's the million dollar question. Does it load/appear instantly? Because that is absolutely necessary..
Yes, it does, I at least see no delay.


NOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo....

Do not want instant popups every time my mouse passes over a bracket in space! Please leave the delay in, or make it configurable. Because that is absolutelier necessarier.
The slider still works Smile


There is no need to log in SISI to test it! I can confirm that 1 slider is not a option and is not satisfy us.

Still waiting to make the old system by implementing on/off tooltips button

Btw DEV team if are are blind I can make a voice record for you about these 58 pages.
If you are deaf I speak the deaf language and we can make a skype to explain you


Personally I get the frustration but:

1) There's no need to insult the Developers, they're human and have done a lot of good things. Remember that CCP karkur works on the "Little Things" as well as Teartips, opps, I mean tooltips so Coloured Broadcasts, Tooltips when they were awesome, Tooltips in fitting window, Assets on Route, to name a few. Be respectful guys, we're not in a playground.

2) Keep it civil, you're more likely to be heard\read and your suggestions picked up on than calling them "Deaf and Dumb".

3) Tooltips annoy the hell out of me in that I can't separate the delays, I'm in this with you, and have suggested ways to improve it without (in my mind) not too much development time.

4) If you took part in CSM 9 Town Hall #1 - (Sunday June 22nd 19.00 UTC) or caught the DL version I posted in the thread some questions regarding this and the CSM (P1 Post #19) along with the responses to those questions on P2 #31.

As Mike pointed out in that thread Audio is available and is only 64MB in size.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#1163 - 2014-06-24 23:04:19 UTC
At least the CSM had a good grasp of the issues. Just not ones in regards to this topic. Lol

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#1164 - 2014-06-25 00:55:44 UTC
Mag's wrote:
At least the CSM had a good grasp of the issues. Just not ones in regards to this topic. Lol

I am curious as to which issues the CSM has a firm grasp on.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#1165 - 2014-06-25 07:01:30 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Mag's wrote:
At least the CSM had a good grasp of the issues. Just not ones in regards to this topic. Lol

I am curious as to which issues the CSM has a firm grasp on.
How to hold meetings and talk endlessly.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#1166 - 2014-06-25 08:54:32 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Mag's wrote:
At least the CSM had a good grasp of the issues. Just not ones in regards to this topic. Lol

I am curious as to which issues the CSM has a firm grasp on.


The last CSM was completely useless. They did nothing to represent our interests and only seemed to suck up to CCP and agree with anything they said.

It took some doing for this lot to be as bad, but they seem to have succeeded after only a short time in office. Awesome effort.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1167 - 2014-06-25 11:59:15 UTC
Rommiee wrote:
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Mag's wrote:
At least the CSM had a good grasp of the issues. Just not ones in regards to this topic. Lol

I am curious as to which issues the CSM has a firm grasp on.


The last CSM was completely useless. They did nothing to represent our interests and only seemed to suck up to CCP and agree with anything they said.

It took some doing for this lot to be as bad, but they seem to have succeeded after only a short time in office. Awesome effort.



Hmm. This seems to be "They don't do things they way I want them done, thus they're useless, and I'll insult them".

Handy.

I assume you're specifically complaining about tool tips, which are still being revised, with comments from Devs still in this thread. (And ignoring the other things which are happening. Or have decided they're bad, so anyone not rejecting them out of hand is 'sucking up to CCP')

Here's a tip for you.

Posts like https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4655014#post4655014 are useless. Ditto with https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4658698#post4658698

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4660165#post4660165 added a great deal to the discussion. (He asked for a slider. I pointed out that there was one. You decided that wasn't helpful.)

Development takes time. Each option adds complexity to the code, which equates to a reduction in performance (true, individually it's minimal. But this all stacks up) and the technical debt for later refactorings. This isn't a 'just fix it' situation, where you can knee-jerk a fix into place. A measured response is the correct one.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Arec Bardwin
#1168 - 2014-06-25 14:27:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Arec Bardwin
Steve Ronuken wrote:
He asked for a slider. I pointed out that there was one. You decided that wasn't helpful.
To be fair, the exising slider option isn't particularly helpful, and I'm saying this in the most positive way possible. Your posts aren't exactly helpful either, I'll quote a helful post below for comparison.

Worrff wrote:
People are getting irate because it really does appear that you have been ignoring all our concerns.

The changes you have made here do go someway to solving some of the issues, however, you also need to split up the delay sliders, one blanket slider for all the tootips just doesn't work.


There are a number of different categories and types which need to be dealt with separately:

Important information:
Capacitor, shield, armor, hull levels

Useful information:
Ammo loaded, range, dps and other module information

Other Information:
Neocom buttons

New Player information:
Station, star, close window

Other overview rollovers:
Ship info

Brackets


These options have been asked for many times. If you could implement these additional sliders, combined with the brackets changes you have made, people may think that you are actually listening :)


In fact, there are several very useful posts in this thread. And if unfinished content is introduced on TQ then a few angry and impolite posts are to be expected.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#1169 - 2014-06-25 14:40:02 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Development takes time. Each option adds complexity to the code, which equates to a reduction in performance (true, individually it's minimal. But this all stacks up) and the technical debt for later refactorings. This isn't a 'just fix it' situation, where you can knee-jerk a fix into place. A measured response is the correct one.

It's such a shame that CCP is so bad at "measured actions" (the initial actions). It should have been blatantly obvious that having NPE-oriented tips appear for not new players was a bad idea. That CCP didn't consider this a valid point (initially) kinda proves the point that the tooltip changes weren't "measured."

MDD
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1170 - 2014-06-25 15:02:31 UTC
Arec Bardwin wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
He asked for a slider. I pointed out that there was one. You decided that wasn't helpful.
To be fair, the exising slider option isn't particularly helpful, and I'm saying this in the most positive way possible.


It was, however, not particularly well advertised. Which was the point of that post. Smile

Arec Bardwin wrote:

In fact, there are several very useful posts in this thread. And if unfinished content is introduced on TQ then a few angry and impolite posts are to be expected.


The post you quoted was a good one. I fully agree there.

The problem isn't the 'a few angry and impolite posts'. Some people are posting quite a lot more than 'a few' posts, which ups the noise to signal ratio, and helps to drown out the good posts. Which is counter productive.

Best option is:

Express your discontent, preferably with suggestions to make it better (as per the post you linked.) Then don't spam the thread with 2 line posts, which add nothing but bile to the thread.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#1171 - 2014-06-25 15:57:24 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Arec Bardwin wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
He asked for a slider. I pointed out that there was one. You decided that wasn't helpful.
To be fair, the exising slider option isn't particularly helpful, and I'm saying this in the most positive way possible.


It was, however, not particularly well advertised. Which was the point of that post. Smile

Arec Bardwin wrote:

In fact, there are several very useful posts in this thread. And if unfinished content is introduced on TQ then a few angry and impolite posts are to be expected.


The post you quoted was a good one. I fully agree there.

The problem isn't the 'a few angry and impolite posts'. Some people are posting quite a lot more than 'a few' posts, which ups the noise to signal ratio, and helps to drown out the good posts. Which is counter productive.

Best option is:

Express your discontent, preferably with suggestions to make it better (as per the post you linked.) Then don't spam the thread with 2 line posts, which add nothing but bile to the thread.

So let the thread die and hope it all goes away?
~ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=332709
~ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=340666

Hmm... I guess we should add our two lines but be sure to repost the good posts while we are at it.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Panterata
BRUTAL GENESIS
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#1172 - 2014-06-25 15:59:03 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Arec Bardwin wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
He asked for a slider. I pointed out that there was one. You decided that wasn't helpful.
To be fair, the exising slider option isn't particularly helpful, and I'm saying this in the most positive way possible.


It was, however, not particularly well advertised. Which was the point of that post. Smile

Arec Bardwin wrote:

In fact, there are several very useful posts in this thread. And if unfinished content is introduced on TQ then a few angry and impolite posts are to be expected.


The post you quoted was a good one. I fully agree there.

The problem isn't the 'a few angry and impolite posts'. Some people are posting quite a lot more than 'a few' posts, which ups the noise to signal ratio, and helps to drown out the good posts. Which is counter productive.

Best option is:

Express your discontent, preferably with suggestions to make it better (as per the post you linked.) Then don't spam the thread with 2 line posts, which add nothing but bile to the thread.


Don't you think that 59 pages are not enough? People already expose their opinions and suggestions. For few of them the tooltips are good, for the majority not.
So in this point of view the DEV team must focus to make on/off options - for most of the people the old system was perfect - then add a options to use the old one
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#1173 - 2014-06-26 16:11:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Rommiee
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Rommiee wrote:
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Mag's wrote:
At least the CSM had a good grasp of the issues. Just not ones in regards to this topic. Lol

I am curious as to which issues the CSM has a firm grasp on.


The last CSM was completely useless. They did nothing to represent our interests and only seemed to suck up to CCP and agree with anything they said.

It took some doing for this lot to be as bad, but they seem to have succeeded after only a short time in office. Awesome effort.



Hmm. This seems to be "They don't do things they way I want them done, thus they're useless, and I'll insult them".

Handy.

I assume you're specifically complaining about tool tips, which are still being revised, with comments from Devs still in this thread. (And ignoring the other things which are happening. Or have decided they're bad, so anyone not rejecting them out of hand is 'sucking up to CCP')

Here's a tip for you.

Posts like https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4655014#post4655014 are useless. Ditto with https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4658698#post4658698

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4660165#post4660165 added a great deal to the discussion. (He asked for a slider. I pointed out that there was one. You decided that wasn't helpful.)

Development takes time. Each option adds complexity to the code, which equates to a reduction in performance (true, individually it's minimal. But this all stacks up) and the technical debt for later refactorings. This isn't a 'just fix it' situation, where you can knee-jerk a fix into place. A measured response is the correct one.



I don't know if you are being particularly awkward or simply are not able to grasp the issue here.


The main point is that the new tooltips were so spectacularly bad that pretty much everyone who plays the game finds it incredible that anyone could actually come up with a system that was so awful.

Past history shows that CCP tend to dump things on TQ before they are ready, then iterate them to death to try and make them half way useable. Everyone knows that this is true, so please don't try to make excuses for it. The Unified Inventory was a prime example.

The CSM should have prevented this fiasco ever getting to TQ, so either you never undock (I believe that you are a high sec industrialist), or have no clue about how most players play the game. Its not a case of "They don't do things they way I want them done, thus they're useless, and I'll insult them", its a case of you doing nothing to prevent situations like this. Ever.


Quote:
Development takes time. Each option adds complexity to the code, which equates to a reduction in performance (true, individually it's minimal. But this all stacks up) and the technical debt for later refactorings. This isn't a 'just fix it' situation, where you can knee-jerk a fix into place. A measured response is the correct one.


As I said, it should never have been introduced to TQ in the first place, so please do not try to defend this shabby methodology.
Davina Sienar
The Misinterpretation of Silence
#1174 - 2014-06-26 20:55:50 UTC
I'm speechless Shocked

http://i.imgur.com/PJuIF2h.jpg

Now I even have to deal with ToolTips on LogIn Screen ?

WTF ?

bored at programming ? nothing else to do ?


Out of mind
unable to understand the philosophy of CCP in any way


Sorry, reached the limits of my medication
Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#1175 - 2014-06-26 21:26:34 UTC
Davina Sienar wrote:
I'm speechless Shocked

http://i.imgur.com/PJuIF2h.jpg

Now I even have to deal with ToolTips on LogIn Screen ?

WTF ?

bored at programming ? nothing else to do ?


Out of mind
unable to understand the philosophy of CCP in any way


Sorry, reached the limits of my medication



Hahahah...........awesome stuff
Mag's
Azn Empire
#1176 - 2014-06-27 09:14:12 UTC
Rommiee wrote:
Davina Sienar wrote:
I'm speechless Shocked

http://i.imgur.com/PJuIF2h.jpg

Now I even have to deal with ToolTips on LogIn Screen ?

WTF ?

bored at programming ? nothing else to do ?


Out of mind
unable to understand the philosophy of CCP in any way


Sorry, reached the limits of my medication



Hahahah...........awesome stuff
The ones I always found to be the funniest, are the buttons on the top of this site.
You may already know this, but hover over Home, Profile, Contacts, Mail, Calendar and Voice.

Kinda says it all tbh. Lol

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#1177 - 2014-06-27 09:17:20 UTC
Rommiee wrote:


As I said, it should never have been introduced to TQ in the first place, so please do not try to defend this shabby methodology.
I have a feeling we were the victims of two errors. One being the new tooltips and the other a new testing method.
But now pride is in the way and we are are the bad ones for pointing out the obvious.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#1178 - 2014-06-27 15:16:31 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Rommiee wrote:
Davina Sienar wrote:
I'm speechless Shocked

http://i.imgur.com/PJuIF2h.jpg

Now I even have to deal with ToolTips on LogIn Screen ?

WTF ?

bored at programming ? nothing else to do ?


Out of mind
unable to understand the philosophy of CCP in any way


Sorry, reached the limits of my medication



Hahahah...........awesome stuff
The ones I always found to be the funniest, are the buttons on the top of this site.
You may already know this, but hover over Home, Profile, Contacts, Mail, Calendar and Voice.

Kinda says it all tbh. Lol


The only thing that does not have a tooltip is the graphic for search. the little magnifying glass. which is the only button there that is not already explained in words.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1179 - 2014-06-27 17:48:56 UTC
Well, the current SiSi build has a far longer delay available for tooltips (not brackets. Those still come up nice and quickly)

Not perfect yet, but a good step towards a good solution.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Oraac Ensor
#1180 - 2014-06-27 19:52:12 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Well, the current SiSi build has a far longer delay available for tooltips (not brackets. Those still come up nice and quickly)

Not perfect yet, but a good step towards a good solution.

There will be no "good step towards a good solution" until we have MULTIPLE delay sliders and the 'black box in space' is gone.