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Vigilant is overruned by Deimos

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Silenciel
Penguins at school
#1 - 2014-06-25 10:35:42 UTC
Some numbers (all V) :
DPS
2 stabs T2 + 5 Heavy Neutron Blaster II + Null => 522 DPS on vigilant

2 stabs T2 + 5 Heavy ION Blaster II + Null => 612 DPS on Deimos (with downgraded weapons)

Tank
Damage Control II + Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II + Armor Explosive Hardener II + 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I + Medium Trimark Armor Pump II x2 = 46 534 Hitpoints on Vigilant

Damage Control II + Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II + Armor Explosive Hardener II + 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I + Medium Trimark Armor Pump II = 53 361 Hitpoints on Deimos

And Deimos is higly better with cap regen.

For other modules, both Vigilant and Deimos have the same numbers of slots except for rigs.

Is it normal that a pirate ship is so useless ?

The vigilant Web bonus cost a lot.
Odithia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2014-06-25 11:41:34 UTC
If there were no such difference there would be no point at all in using the dimos.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#3 - 2014-06-25 12:46:25 UTC
Never in all my days did I ever think I'd see someone claim the Deimos is better than the Vigilant... and be serious.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#4 - 2014-06-25 13:53:35 UTC
First off, your DPS numbers are shot. The Deimos has a maximum damage bonus of 50% (5% per level x 10 levels), the Vigilant has a maximum damage bonus of 75%. I don't know how you got your numbers, but it is impossible for a Deimos to have a higher DPS than a Vigilant assuming all other factors (skills, fitting, etc.) are equal. Also remember that the Vigilant gets it's 75% damage bonus just from boarding the ship. The Deimos doesn't get it's full bonus unless you train the Heavy Assault Cruisers skill all the way to V, which many pilots don't do.

Secondly, you completely overlook mobility. The Vigilant is faster and more agile than the Deimos, not to mention has a better scan resolution for quicker target locks. In a blaster boat, mobility is key. (Incidentally, slapping a 1600mm plate on a blaster boat with a bonus to armor reppers seems like a bad move to me. Active rep that Deimos.)

Lastly, you completely gloss over the web bonus. That bonus is huge. It will utterly immobilize any ship without an aferburner, letting you control transversal and maximizing your DPS. A ship with an afterburner will still be somewhat mobile, but will be unable to speed tank your guns or disengage at will. Never underestimate the power of a web effectiveness bonus. There's a reason they took it away from the Kronos but left it on the Serpentis ships.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Silenciel
Penguins at school
#5 - 2014-06-25 14:06:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Silenciel
Oh yes void/null mistake.

My bad.

Vigilant do 120 more DPS but with less tank.
Not really fantastic.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#6 - 2014-06-25 14:32:34 UTC
Silenciel wrote:
Oh yes void/null mistake.

My bad.

Vigilant do 120 more DPS but with less tank.
Not really fantastic.


90% Web.

A 90% ******* web.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#7 - 2014-06-25 14:36:11 UTC
Glad that someone confirmed the DPS discrepancy.
A vigilant at 522 DPS sounded like bull **** to me.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-06-25 14:45:52 UTC
Do you expect a pirate ship to be better than a similar T2 in every single aspect?

If yes, then change your method of thought so that the answer becomes "no".
JAF Anders
Adenosine Inhibition
The Chicken Coop
#9 - 2014-06-25 17:04:40 UTC
Each ship is the best at what it's designed to do. There are no direct upgrades in Eve.

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.
Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
Transgress
#10 - 2014-06-25 17:43:14 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
First off, your DPS numbers are shot. The Deimos has a maximum damage bonus of 50% (5% per level x 10 levels), the Vigilant has a maximum damage bonus of 75%. I don't know how you got your numbers, but it is impossible for a Deimos to have a higher DPS than a Vigilant assuming all other factors (skills, fitting, etc.) are equal. Also remember that the Vigilant gets it's 75% damage bonus just from boarding the ship. The Deimos doesn't get it's full bonus unless you train the Heavy Assault Cruisers skill all the way to V, which many pilots don't do.

Secondly, you completely overlook mobility. The Vigilant is faster and more agile than the Deimos, not to mention has a better scan resolution for quicker target locks. In a blaster boat, mobility is key. (Incidentally, slapping a 1600mm plate on a blaster boat with a bonus to armor reppers seems like a bad move to me. Active rep that Deimos.)

Lastly, you completely gloss over the web bonus. That bonus is huge. It will utterly immobilize any ship without an aferburner, letting you control transversal and maximizing your DPS. A ship with an afterburner will still be somewhat mobile, but will be unable to speed tank your guns or disengage at will. Never underestimate the power of a web effectiveness bonus. There's a reason they took it away from the Kronos but left it on the Serpentis ships.



There is slight mistake in your calculation. the bonuses are multiplicative, not additive. so if one gets 25% bonus from one skill and 25% bonus from other skill the final bonus is 1.25*1.25~1.56 (56% bonus).

You are however correct that there is no way for vigilant to have lower dps given the same fitting (75% bonus vs 56% max bonus).

OP can you please edit your first post so it reflects correct dps so people are not confused?
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#11 - 2014-06-25 17:58:44 UTC
Shpenat wrote:
There is slight mistake in your calculation. the bonuses are multiplicative, not additive. so if one gets 25% bonus from one skill and 25% bonus from other skill the final bonus is 1.25*1.25~1.56 (56% bonus).

You are however correct that there is no way for vigilant to have lower dps given the same fitting (75% bonus vs 56% max bonus).

OP can you please edit your first post so it reflects correct dps so people are not confused?


So at HAC V, a Deimos will get a +56% damage bonus, but if it had been +10% per level for only one skill instead of 5% per level for two, it'd only be a +50% bonus?

Interesting.... Thanks for the clarification. It's a small difference, but a difference nonetheless.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#12 - 2014-06-25 18:34:25 UTC
JAF Anders wrote:
Each ship is the best at what it's designed to do. There are no direct upgrades in Eve.


Vagabond

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
JAF Anders
Adenosine Inhibition
The Chicken Coop
#13 - 2014-06-25 19:02:51 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:
JAF Anders wrote:
Each ship is the best at what it's designed to do. There are no direct upgrades in Eve.


Vagabond


The Stabber has more raw structure hit points than a Vagabond. (1300/980)

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-06-25 19:22:57 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Silenciel wrote:
Oh yes void/null mistake.

My bad.

Vigilant do 120 more DPS but with less tank.
Not really fantastic.


90% Web.

A 90% ******* web.

How did this thread make it through 5 posts before this came up. Pre-nano nerf web is beast.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#15 - 2014-06-25 19:28:18 UTC
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Silenciel wrote:
Oh yes void/null mistake.

My bad.

Vigilant do 120 more DPS but with less tank.
Not really fantastic.


90% Web.

A 90% ******* web.

How did this thread make it through 5 posts before this came up. Pre-nano nerf web is beast.


I mentioned it in the third reply. Blink

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2014-06-25 19:45:47 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Silenciel wrote:
Oh yes void/null mistake.

My bad.

Vigilant do 120 more DPS but with less tank.
Not really fantastic.


90% Web.

A 90% ******* web.

How did this thread make it through 5 posts before this came up. Pre-nano nerf web is beast.


I mentioned it in the third reply. Blink

My bad, no TL;DR I guess.

Guess I was just expecting a first response of something like "check your stats again and 90% web. /thread."

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2014-06-25 19:48:03 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
90% Web.

A 90% ******* web.

This.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#18 - 2014-06-25 19:53:23 UTC
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
My bad, no TL;DR I guess.

Guess I was just expecting a first response of something like "check your stats again and 90% web. /thread."


True story.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#19 - 2014-06-25 22:02:59 UTC
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
"check your stats again and 90% web. /thread."
Good plan.

This thread is now 100% webbed.

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