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Felicity Love
Doomheim
#21 - 2014-06-24 04:07:46 UTC
Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote:
how about mining, how is mining and refining going to be changed?


You should join a decent player corp... they'll show you the ropes and help you learn "stuff" faster... especially once the changes take effect for Cryus.

Other than that, DEV BLOGS are your friend. Blink

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#22 - 2014-06-24 19:04:51 UTC
Attivol wrote:
Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote:
Nex Killer wrote:
Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Wait a month. Crius is being released July 22nd, and will eliminate the need of a POS for many people.

Until then: Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr [Ordered most CPU to least.]

what do you mean will eliminate the use of pos?


They're removing slots to indy and making it so the install cost scales with out many people are installing and doing jobs in a system. Before the main reason why people would put up a pos is because a station would be out of research/manufacturing slots so, they setup a pos and get their own slots to install things that other people couldn't use.

i still dont understand


People put up a POS because there were a limited number of industry slots in stations. After Crius there will be an unlimited number of industry slots in stations and therefore no reason to put up a POS.

well they have added one reason for a high sec POS. the compression array. Since mineral compression will be nerfed to about 55% mineral return,( i.e. building 425mm rail guns to ship to null a reprocess.) all high sec low end minerals getting shipped to null will be in the form of compressed ore. They will continue to build supers in null, and thus still need massive amounts of low end ores from high sec, so high sec, ore compression POSes will be needed.
Vincenzo Arbosa
Locust Assets
#23 - 2014-06-24 19:43:09 UTC
Perhaps I am not understanding the Crius changes, but to me it would seem that the update will actually increase POS usage.

Removal of slot limits on manufacturing or research will make starting a job somewhere easier, but the costs will increase exponentially dependent upon the activity level of the station/factory, right?

Manufacturing within a few jumps of any hub will become ridiculously expensive if that is the case, which (should) prove to be an incentive to anchor a POS and be free of those surcharges and still maintain proximity to the hub.

Now that POSes will be able to be anchored in all security levels, and with no faction standing, I would imagine that there will be more popping up, especially in the 0.8 - 1.0 systems that are free and clear near hub systems. It will all come down to whether the avoidance of the surcharges will offset the cost of fuel to keep the POS up. Right?

Am I missing something?
"Leave the gun. Take the cannoli." 
Shahai Shintaro
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2014-06-24 20:04:24 UTC
Vincenzo Arbosa wrote:
Perhaps I am not understanding the Crius changes, but to me it would seem that the update will actually increase POS usage.

Removal of slot limits on manufacturing or research will make starting a job somewhere easier, but the costs will increase exponentially dependent upon the activity level of the station/factory, right?

Manufacturing within a few jumps of any hub will become ridiculously expensive if that is the case, which (should) prove to be an incentive to anchor a POS and be free of those surcharges and still maintain proximity to the hub.

Now that POSes will be able to be anchored in all security levels, and with no faction standing, I would imagine that there will be more popping up, especially in the 0.8 - 1.0 systems that are free and clear near hub systems. It will all come down to whether the avoidance of the surcharges will offset the cost of fuel to keep the POS up. Right?

Am I missing something?


My understanding is cost increase is by how busy the system is not the station. The only thing the pos saves you is the tax. The question is, is that cheaper than pos fuel
Vincenzo Arbosa
Locust Assets
#25 - 2014-06-24 20:21:50 UTC
Ah, ok.. I will need to re-read the dev logs as that was not my impression. That would make systems with multiple factory-stations rather poor places to operate then after this update.

Whereas somewhere like Urlen, at 1.0 just two jumps from Jita with no factory stations and only 20 moons, would likely be a great place for a manufacturing POS. The cost of fuel, in that case, would likely be miniscule in the face of the surcharges of any factory stations that close to Jita.

I am guessing there will be much pew-pew for those types of moons.
"Leave the gun. Take the cannoli." 
Li Quiao
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2014-06-24 20:24:13 UTC
Shahai Shintaro wrote:

My understanding is cost increase is by how busy the system is not the station. The only thing the pos saves you is the tax. The question is, is that cheaper than pos fuel


Cost will be by system, correct. But if you set the POS with an assembly facilities/research facilities/whatever up in a system that has no stations with such facilities, your cost will be quite low. as there will be nobody doing those jobs on stations to jack up the price. And the costs to use these things are going up sharply--that's the price we're going to pay for not having a limited number of lines any more. An intelligently sited, heavily used POS could very well save you more than your fuel costs.
Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#27 - 2014-06-25 23:23:03 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Aside from:
* Slot changes, which are greatly needed
* Reprocessing and compression changes
* Removal of tower anchoring restrictions
* Starbase Defense prerequisite of Anchoring 5 lowered to Anchoring 4,

The bulk of the remaining Crius changes, in my opinion, do not improve game-play.

Form your own opinion. before it is too late.
Assuming it's not too late already to influence the Crius release, what are some of your specific concerns or changes you would like to see? You might get some player support as Mynnna has attempted to do with his POS defense suggestion.


Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-06-26 00:41:17 UTC
Li Quiao wrote:
Shahai Shintaro wrote:

My understanding is cost increase is by how busy the system is not the station. The only thing the pos saves you is the tax. The question is, is that cheaper than pos fuel


Cost will be by system, correct. But if you set the POS with an assembly facilities/research facilities/whatever up in a system that has no stations with such facilities, your cost will be quite low. as there will be nobody doing those jobs on stations to jack up the price. And the costs to use these things are going up sharply--that's the price we're going to pay for not having a limited number of lines any more. An intelligently sited, heavily used POS could very well save you more than your fuel costs.


You seem to have missed this, but if there are other people in the same stationless system doing industry jobs your prices will also get affected. You, in your stationless system could be paying similar costs as industry stationed systems. It is also important to not that not all stations have industry slots, so you can still have a station system with no industrial activity except for pos installed jobs.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-06-26 01:10:18 UTC
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Aside from:
* Slot changes, which are greatly needed
* Reprocessing and compression changes
* Removal of tower anchoring restrictions
* Starbase Defense prerequisite of Anchoring 5 lowered to Anchoring 4,

The bulk of the remaining Crius changes, in my opinion, do not improve game-play.

Form your own opinion. before it is too late.
Assuming it's not too late already to influence the Crius release, what are some of your specific concerns or changes you would like to see? You might get some player support as Mynnna has attempted to do with his POS defense suggestion.


Pretty much as soon as its published in a dev blog the meat of the change is not negotiable and it will take three to six weeks of 100 page threads and dropped subs to get necessary changes to happen. Other then the changes listed there by Tau, some other Crius changes are :

1 ME/TE calculation changes to fit 10 point scale
2 Copy/manufacture time Leveling
3 "Extra" materials folded back into regular materials
4 Invention bpc consumption changes and max run changes
5 Science and Industry tab revamp "featuring" graphics over words/numbers
-> universal bp list - including from in cans
6 cross region Job installation / remote completion
7 BPO jobs can no longer be started in POS lab from in station (the bpo must be in the pos to be used at the pos)
8 Jump fuel use increase (which will affect the pos fuel costs to some degree)
9 Array job stacking bonus (more online modules of similar types lend a modifier to the cost of the job install)
10 Universal Job index which affects job installation costs globally (including in your pos)
11 System Job Index which affects job installation costs system wide (including in your pos)
12 Job cost scaling relating to the item being manufactured (cost of item (global market index) is figured into all bp job install costs, on top of Universal and system job index costs)
13 Material level bonus fluctuation for arrays and stations depending on ? (im not actually sure what all these factors are, nor am i sure exactly how they are calculated, but they seem to vary by day even with no "teams" active in the system)
14 Teams, NPC's for hire with a wide variety of bonuses.

There are quite a few more, https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4614151#post4614151
Please note that the threads the devs are working on are becoming more and more spread out even when referring to the same things. and working very hard to ignore the fact that all of this is very interrelated.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#30 - 2014-06-26 16:12:11 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
here are quite a few more.
...
Please note that the threads the devs are working on are becoming more and more spread out even when referring to the same things. and working very hard to ignore the fact that all of this is very interrelated.
Thank you for the concise summarization.

I was trying to find out what are Tau's specific concerns about the upcoming release. When I started Eve last fall I quickly learned that Tau is one of the good guys on the forums. He always provides useful information in a straight forward, never condescending manner. So it's surprising to see such a fatalistic attitude from him. If we knew what the concerns are we could either add to the feedback to CCP, or make sure we are prepared for the impact where possible.

Apelacja
Sad Najwyzszy
#31 - 2014-06-26 17:09:31 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
POS are cheaper on costs.
POS have a 2% ME discount also.
POS can also be set up in a system with no stations, so you won't have other people driving your costs up.
POS can also have a bonus discount on POS for more modules of the same type set up.

Now, if that works out cheaper than a station depends how much you use the POS.



and team gives u 5-6 % of ME reduction...
Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#32 - 2014-06-26 21:27:10 UTC
Apelacja wrote:
and team gives u 5-6 % of ME reduction...
Do team ME reductions apply equally to all POS and NPC Stations in the system?
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2014-06-26 23:23:30 UTC
Attivol wrote:
Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote:
Nex Killer wrote:
Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Wait a month. Crius is being released July 22nd, and will eliminate the need of a POS for many people.

Until then: Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr [Ordered most CPU to least.]

what do you mean will eliminate the use of pos?


They're removing slots to indy and making it so the install cost scales with out many people are installing and doing jobs in a system. Before the main reason why people would put up a pos is because a station would be out of research/manufacturing slots so, they setup a pos and get their own slots to install things that other people couldn't use.

i still dont understand


People put up a POS because there were a limited number of industry slots in stations. After Crius there will be an unlimited number of industry slots in stations and therefore no reason to put up a POS.


There are multiple reasons to put up a POS, you know that right?

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Attivol
#34 - 2014-06-27 00:15:23 UTC
Quote:
People put up a POS because there were a limited number of industry slots in stations. After Crius there will be an unlimited number of industry slots in stations and therefore no reason to put up a POS.


Quote:
There are multiple reasons to put up a POS, you know that right?


You are capable of following the context of the conversation, right? Let me help you just in case.

OP- I want to put up an industrial POS.
Post #2- Here's why you shouldn't.
OP #3- I don't get it.
#4- Let clear things up for you
OP- I still don't get it.
My Post- Let me clarify what the other respondents have said.
OP- OK, now I get it.


Now, at what point in this conversation did I say that there is only one reason players put up a POS?
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#35 - 2014-06-27 08:21:22 UTC
Attivol wrote:
OP- I want to put up an industrial POS.
Post #2- Here's why you shouldn't.
OP #3- I don't get it.
#4- Let clear things up for you
OP- I still don't get it.
My Post- Let me clarify what the other respondents have said.
OP- OK, now I get it.

Actually my post #2 was more like: Re-evaluate after Crius, but here's the answer to your question...
Terminator Cindy
Yesterday's Tomorrow
#36 - 2014-06-28 05:55:35 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
POS are cheaper on costs.
POS have a 2% ME discount also.


How much cheaper ? A POS costs anywhere between 200 mil and 600 mil a month in fuel depending on its size. Would the new production / research lines in station be that expensive ?
Tal'Rashas Urteil
harlyq syrokos investment station
#37 - 2014-06-30 12:07:07 UTC
Terminator Cindy wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
POS are cheaper on costs.
POS have a 2% ME discount also.


How much cheaper ? A POS costs anywhere between 200 mil and 600 mil a month in fuel depending on its size. Would the new production / research lines in station be that expensive ?

But if your like me who can make their own pos fuel, I don't think pos fuel is an issue correct? So if your doing pi in a .5 system with no station or other pos in the system and just have yours, the production cost would be cheap right? And won't have to worry about pos fuel because you make your own, which the isk that you don't spend on pos fuel can be spent in further production?
Li Quiao
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2014-06-30 14:31:06 UTC
Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote:

But if your like me who can make their own pos fuel, I don't think pos fuel is an issue correct?


Of course the cost of the fuel is still an issue. If you're buying it, you're paying the cost of buying it. If you're making it, you're paying the cost of not selling it.
Ginger Barbarella
#39 - 2014-06-30 15:17:29 UTC
Tal'Rashas Urteil wrote:
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH OK i understand now, why is CCP making eve easier? CCP WHAT IS THIS MADNESS?



CCP: Easy Buttons for All!!

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Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#40 - 2014-06-30 15:39:56 UTC
The POS fuel I make myself is free.Roll

Fuel blocks are worth 15-18k each. A small tower requires 10 blocks an hour. So it will cost 150k-180k isk per hour to run that tower. Now look at how much you would make in the amount of time it takes you to mine the ice and do the PI required to make those blocks, and compare it to the cost of fueling your tower off the market.

Now ask yourself if you would be better off buying off doing something else to earn the isk to buy fuel ofrom the market. If you can make more than 180k isk/hr, you're better off buying off the market.

HINT: If you can't make 180k isk/hr, you're doing it very wrong.

Keep in mind that POSes require matching racial fuel blocks, which require racial isotopes. If you are in Amarr space and using a Caldari tower, you will have to buy isotopes off the market anyway because there is no way to mine those Oxygen Isotopes in Amarr space. Isotopes make up 50-67% of the cost of fuel blocks, depending on market conditions.

My advice to you, is to just buy your blocks off the market.

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