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What is CCP's current stance on 'capital power projection' in EVE?
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TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#41 - 2014-06-24 00:13:28 UTC
Power projection has nothing to do with it. As long as there is player owned space there will be large fleets to defend them. No matter how you change the game, this will always be a fact.

The problem lies in the current system that has led to the current joke of a sov map. Owning systems for the sake of owning them, not for the sake of using them. What good does owning 1000 systems do when only 50 of them are actively used by the holding alliance?

Hopefully CCP manages to recreate the Sov system into something that is fun and realistic to fight for. The current system ensures the person that brings the biggest stick wins. Ideally there would be a system where the size of the stick doesn't dictate the winner.

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IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#42 - 2014-06-24 00:20:22 UTC
myjita wrote:
before getting anally enlarged.

Some might enjoy this. Yes it hurts at first but then it feels good!
Domania
Must Be EOL Cuz Wormholes Dont Jiggle Like This
#43 - 2014-06-24 00:27:54 UTC
They are pretty overpowered. I used my Naglfar to scan from Fountain to Curse. My power projection is the entire map. Please nerf CCP.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#44 - 2014-06-24 00:32:49 UTC
50 billion a month for Concord protection for Corps smaller than 20. TwistedLol


o7
Alternative Splicing
Captain Content and The Contenteers
#45 - 2014-06-24 01:03:48 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Power projection has nothing to do with it. As long as there is player owned space there will be large fleets to defend them. No matter how you change the game, this will always be a fact.

The problem lies in the current system that has led to the current joke of a sov map. Owning systems for the sake of owning them, not for the sake of using them. What good does owning 1000 systems do when only 50 of them are actively used by the holding alliance?

Hopefully CCP manages to recreate the Sov system into something that is fun and realistic to fight for. The current system ensures the person that brings the biggest stick wins. Ideally there would be a system where the size of the stick doesn't dictate the winner.


Large fleets for defence of player owned space are fine, but it is power projection of those fleets which creates this problem. You would not want to go 50 jumps away to defend something, then 50 jumps another direction for some awful system you do not care about and has no strategic value. However if you go there and back as if its right on your doorstep, this becomes a trivial exercise, which is what power projection enables. If your large fleet just looked after its own home constellation or region which they actually had a stake in, but had no jump drives, bridges, or capitals to get somewhere else, then it probably couldn't and wouldn't be bothered to look beyond local concerns. You only need one large fleet to defend any number of systems currently, because it is omnipresent in all of them via projection. You are always fighting against all of them, as opposed to being able to force them to have enough defenders per system/constellation/region they control.

Put another way - is one police department enough for a sprawling metropolis? One fire department? Of course not, you need multiple people to be in multiple areas, and you wouldn't want the closest fire department to be hundreds of miles away - there would be nothing left to save by the time they got there. Timers and power projection essentially let there be one fire department for an entire empire of cities.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#46 - 2014-06-24 04:23:12 UTC
Alternative Splicing wrote:
Large fleets for defence of player owned space are fine, but it is power projection of those fleets which creates this problem. You would not want to go 50 jumps away to defend something, then 50 jumps another direction for some awful system you do not care about and has no strategic value.

EVE history has shown that players will find a way around any obstacle, and they can be surprisingly inventive and clever, and stubbornly relentless.

No need to ever make 50 jumps. Strategically placed assets in stations and jump clones is all one needs. Barring that, additional alts / accounts. The larger the entity, the more practical this is.
Winchester Steele
#47 - 2014-06-24 04:25:20 UTC
Your NPC alt looks suspiciously like Gevlon Goblin and that is enough for me to disregard anything else you might be saying.

...

Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#48 - 2014-06-24 04:46:12 UTC
Alternative Splicing wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
Power projection has nothing to do with it. As long as there is player owned space there will be large fleets to defend them. No matter how you change the game, this will always be a fact.

The problem lies in the current system that has led to the current joke of a sov map. Owning systems for the sake of owning them, not for the sake of using them. What good does owning 1000 systems do when only 50 of them are actively used by the holding alliance?

Hopefully CCP manages to recreate the Sov system into something that is fun and realistic to fight for. The current system ensures the person that brings the biggest stick wins. Ideally there would be a system where the size of the stick doesn't dictate the winner.


Large fleets for defence of player owned space are fine, but it is power projection of those fleets which creates this problem. You would not want to go 50 jumps away to defend something, then 50 jumps another direction for some awful system you do not care about and has no strategic value. However if you go there and back as if its right on your doorstep, this becomes a trivial exercise, which is what power projection enables. If your large fleet just looked after its own home constellation or region which they actually had a stake in, but had no jump drives, bridges, or capitals to get somewhere else, then it probably couldn't and wouldn't be bothered to look beyond local concerns. You only need one large fleet to defend any number of systems currently, because it is omnipresent in all of them via projection. You are always fighting against all of them, as opposed to being able to force them to have enough defenders per system/constellation/region they control.

Put another way - is one police department enough for a sprawling metropolis? One fire department? Of course not, you need multiple people to be in multiple areas, and you wouldn't want the closest fire department to be hundreds of miles away - there would be nothing left to save by the time they got there. Timers and power projection essentially let there be one fire department for an entire empire of cities.



You, along with everyone else who complains about power projection, are arguing a point that has been specifically refuted over and over again.

Your point is that holding more sov systems should require more ships. This is the same as saying that it should require more money. Cost is absolutely not considered to be a factor in balancing. End of story.

Maybe something is wrong with the way null sec is right now. I don't know. Only been there once or twice.

But what I do know is that you have to come up with a better solution than "make it more expensive."

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2014-06-24 04:57:15 UTC
Sov sucks.
Power projection is not the reason.
Centralized objectives are the reason.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#50 - 2014-06-24 05:18:56 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Sov sucks.
Power projection is not the reason.
Centralized objectives are the reason.


I was going to make some reply about goons, propaganda, control of CCP's dev's, etc, then figured "why bother?"

Power projection will be fixed when it is fixed.
seagull's graphs, charts, and comments point to some attempt at changes probably in mid / ate 2015.
Rest assured, any changes to power projection will not weaken the cartels' control of the space they currently control.
Baron Chauman
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2014-06-24 05:53:39 UTC
So what is it that stops you people from joining us in making the myth of the blue donut a reality?

Service guarantees citizenship.
myjita
Doomheim
#52 - 2014-06-24 07:21:04 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
You can give any entity an invincible bridging titan and it won't stop them from being ******** and small. They'll still get stomped.


And honestly, if your entire alliance can't afford a single titan you should probably reconsider your null venture. Titans are becoming accessible to the middle class, and goodness knows even I could buy one if I went and sold everything I owned in game.


Congratulations. You've managed to completely miss the point.
myjita
Doomheim
#53 - 2014-06-24 07:46:06 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Power projection has nothing to do with it. As long as there is player owned space there will be large fleets to defend them. No matter how you change the game, this will always be a fact.

The problem lies in the current system that has led to the current joke of a sov map. Owning systems for the sake of owning them, not for the sake of using them. What good does owning 1000 systems do when only 50 of them are actively used by the holding alliance?

Hopefully CCP manages to recreate the Sov system into something that is fun and realistic to fight for. The current system ensures the person that brings the biggest stick wins. Ideally there would be a system where the size of the stick doesn't dictate the winner.


It's not so much a complaint against the ****-age, that is to be expected when you and your 30ish mates decide to attack a system owned by the 'big boys'.

The issue lies in the ability to effectuate the molestation almost instantaneous. This is a game design flaw in my opinion.

One should be able to kick a giant in the nuts and have him wobble for some time before he decides to smash your face in. This is not the case with EVE, as it is (almost) instantaneous.

Also people seem to think that "You'll get stomped eventually anyways" argument is worth something. It is not. This game is all about decisions. If a medium size entity decides to attack a system, knowing that in 1-2 days they'll get booted out again, then so be it. If that's what they decide to do.

Not many will decide to attack a system, knowing that the rage will be swift. (30 mins)

This game has room for improvement. Take care people. See on teh battlefield.
myjita
Doomheim
#54 - 2014-06-24 07:58:06 UTC
Glathull wrote:


Your point is that holding more sov systems should require more ships. This is the same as saying that it should require more money. Cost is absolutely not considered to be a factor in balancing. End of story.

Maybe something is wrong with the way null sec is right now. I don't know. Only been there once or twice.

But what I do know is that you have to come up with a better solution than "make it more expensive."


He isn't saying you need more ships. He is saying that the ships you already have, need to be spread out over multiple regions in order to defend. Something not needed today.

If the amount of space is more than the a healthy spread of ships can handle, then you probable control too much space and have to either acquire more forces or give up some of your space.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#55 - 2014-06-24 07:58:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Alternative Splicing wrote:
Put another way - is one police department enough for a sprawling metropolis?

Whoa, let's not turn this into a CONCORD argument.
myjita wrote:
If the amount of space is more than the a healthy spread of ships can handle, then you probable control too much space and have to either acquire more forces or give up some of your space.

I don't know how the superpower NA. will handle those challenges...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#56 - 2014-06-24 11:09:10 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Sov sucks.
Power projection is not the reason.
Centralized objectives are the reason.


I was going to make some reply about goons, propaganda, control of CCP's dev's, etc, then figured "why bother?"

Power projection will be fixed when it is fixed.
seagull's graphs, charts, and comments point to some attempt at changes probably in mid / ate 2015.
Rest assured, any changes to power projection will not weaken the cartels' control of the space they currently control.


True that, when it takes longer for everyone to get from A to B we have a stagnant situation.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
Insidious.
#57 - 2014-06-24 11:17:54 UTC
Sov is perfect and should never be touched.
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2014-06-24 12:33:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Brainless Bimbo
Way back in the mists of time CCP decided to change sovereignty mechanics see http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/dominion-storming-the-gates/ .

Now Null Sec should be viewed as basic iron age tribalism mixed with modern day Imperialism. Like all imperialist empires through out the ages smaller entities are either absorbed by coercion or promises of good things to come , totally obliterated and removed from the face of the universe, subjugated and used as beings of lesser worth or their government covertly subverted as we see in S America and the old eastern block.

CCP knows human nature, were all selfish b´stards at some level, the self, the extended family, the tribe, the nation, and have allowed that to run riot.

True the current system in EvE means no smaller entities can spontaneously emerge at this stage of development of the game world, the Imperial Empires even if they have space they actually do not use apart from roaming rats and exploration sites as a daily activity will always want full control as that is the Imperial mindset, your denying others resources and growth, while their upkeep cost will have become insignificant when the size of the Empire income is taken into account.

Currently the system is open diplomatic relations and see what happens, there are small pockets of sov within large blocks and we all know if the large block wanted the space they could take it so Diplomatic relations are required.

The OP is under the impression that a small scale alliance should be able hold a system in their own right without making bargains for survival with those with the bigger club who surround him.

It is not Power Projection that troubles the OP it is the need for Diplomacy


Edit for the future:

When CCP does change the holding mechanics i hope they use political and social scientists along with historians and maybe even a psychologist and debate it to death and rebirth, test it out and do it again and again, its not a thing a game designer can pull out of the ether in a sandbox like eve and get right.

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#59 - 2014-06-24 12:47:45 UTC
Solution:

Make High Sec claimable

Case closed

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
myjita
Doomheim
#60 - 2014-06-24 14:02:55 UTC
Brainless Bimbo wrote:
The OP is under the impression that a small scale alliance should be able hold a system in their own right without making bargains for survival with those with the bigger club who surround him.


Not true.

I wish that a small scale alliance can do some initial damage, before getting raped. I've never ever stated that a small alliance should be able to hold that system, should it's powerful owners want it back.

The fact of the matter is this, no matter how you look at it.

1. Place big structures (SBUs)

2. Get raped by supers and titans before they online. (Ships that 20 mins earlier were on the opposite side of the universe)

3. Achieve 0 damage.

Not even as much as an important structure damaged. Not even it's paint scratched. All because of a dumb SOV system combined with ridiculous power projection from supers.