Science & Industry

In case anyone missed this excellent point, PI taxes are an ISK sink. In theory a buffed up PI ISK sink will help offset some of the inflation introduced by ISK being injected into the game by incursions. Less inflation, lower prices for everyone.

Silly me hit post without copying contents, lets try again .

First thing I'd like to state very clearly is PI is STILL very profitable. The reason why it's still profitable is because taxes are based on the average market value of each tier of product and set to 10% of that value in high sec. For simplicity we'll pretend that before crucible was launched taxes for high sec imports and exports were free. Now lets look at the base prices ccp are using for determining just exactly how much isk that 10% on the customs office is:

◦ Advanced Commodities: 1,350,000.00 ISK 10% = 135000 ISK
◦ Specialized Commodities: 70,000.00 ISK 10% = 7000 ISK
◦ Refined Commodities: 9,000.00 ISK 10% = 900 ISK
◦ Basic commodities: 500.00 ISK 10% = 50 ISK
◦ Planet Resources: 5,00 ISK 10% = 0.5 ISK

This means that if you were selling any refined commodity below 9000 ISK you could have been making more isk creating and selling something else, but because you were effectively paying no tax it didn't matter what you made it was still profitable. I just have to reiterate this point; if you were selling any tier of item for anywhere near the price that is now charged for exporting that tier you failed HARD at doing your market research because you could have been making something that sold for 10 times as much. By halting manufacture of these grossly undervalued items their prices will rise to become more in line with the idex prices which might at a later time make them viable to produce again.

At the end of the day a tax rate of 10% on pi production really is a very reasonable amount, it's similair to the amount of tax you pay on mission rewards and bounties in npc corps and even some player made corps. The beauty of using base index prices for each tier is that for every item in that tier that sells for less than the base there has to be something that sells for more than the base which effectively means doing your research and manufacturing the right product means you pay less than 10% of the value that item will sell for in export taxes.

Null Sec is Eve in Co-Op mode. If you don't have enough people to CoOperatively tear down the interbus COs and put up CoOperatively owned POCOS, congrats, you've figured out why Null is the Co-Op mode of Eve.

Now if only there were some way to organize players in some sort of in game structure to make CoOperative play easier.

So, uh, the only reason for you to be in nullsec was PI? And you thought that was something that would be easy to do, solo?

Not to be harsh, but you really do not get the intension behind nullsec. As RubyPorto says, it's supposed to be something you do with other people, so if nothing else find some renter corp and join them.

Or not, and just realize that you're trying to do something which is supposed to be hard to do alone. Not impossible, but hard. vOv

I find so many things in the thread and in other conversations in the last week funny.

PVE guy who complains that he doesn't make enough money doing L4's to cover the increase in T2 costs? Really? How many freaking ships do you lose? If you don't make enough to cover the increase in T2 missile costs, use T1.

High Sec PI guy that doesn't want his profits nerfed. Guess what, week later and profits are about the same level with the new taxes as they were a week ago.

PI guy that complains the tax on stuff under the Commodity Index is really more than 10% (or 17%). Well maybe that is a key to looking at something else to make.

Null PI guy that can't kill a CO to put up his own. Wow, we did it with 4 players in BS's. Took awhile, but got done. You live in Null and don't have 3 friends with BS's?

And for all the emo rage quitters, please stay away, as that is more profit for us real business people.

In the end the real heartburn was not the doubling of the HS tax rate (and 350% increase for Interbus), it was the reindexing of the price used to figure the tax. The "effective tax" before the change was under 2% of most of the items "real value", and with the more valuable items it was almost 1%. Reindexing alone would have made prices go up.

Now I do agree they should not be called Taxes, since we all assume a tax is based on the actual price. They should instead be Tariffs.

Long Term, I would support a regular adjustment to the index to keep things more "current" and not let these Tariffs get to a point again where an adjustment will result in a 2 to 3 time increase.

Overall, I think the changes were needed, add another level of "stuff" corps can get involved in, and added a layer of "ownership" to PI in Low/Null/W-Space that did not exist before.

And if it pisses some HS people off who don't understand anything about business, even better.

yes.



I am pretty sure this is the entire idea behind it. If they make hisec PI too expensive compared to low/null sec PI, (and seriouly, who the hell lives in null and doesnt have a few friends (or alts) to take a Interbus down ....) then most of all the pos fuels will be low/null produced, except those that simply pay out of pocket to stay independant of other market forces. (dont ask, they are out there) Because of the lack of concentration of players and conflict over PI now (pre-patch), they needed a function in which there was a good reason to fight over planets. lowsec PI with its lure of 0% tax rates, will bring players and their alts to join or at least negoiate with pvp groups over blue status, safe routes, and POCO safty. It will make sense for a pvp group thats living in an area to favor one or more industralist groups over others because of ship specials, or other supply stocking deals.

once thats been settled for a while, DUST 514 will introduce the kicking of economic and industrialist rivals, further trying to bind individual industralist groups to pvp groups.

but it has to happen in low/null so that you can have fast poco battles, and large unannounced firefights, rather then griefing of noobs in hisec, which would happen more frequently then even CCP wants.

In case anyone missed this excellent point, PI taxes are an ISK sink. In theory a buffed up PI ISK sink will help offset some of the inflation introduced by ISK being injected into the game by incursions. Less inflation, lower prices for everyone.
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This is one of the things that, conceptually, bugs me about the change. Incursions introduced a new isk faucet, so they had to put in a new sink somewhere... and they choose PI. From a macro level balance perspective it might make sense, but it sent a strong message about 'correct' and 'incorrect' play.. 'we give more money to this group of players, and take it away from these'.

I do agree with the people saying prices will sort themselves out. It remains to be seen if hi sec or null sec end up dominating the market though... it is not implausible that null sec could outproduce hi sec and thus be the dominant factor in setting prices, but for the moment we simply do not know.

Something I do find sad though is the 'double dip' tax, exporting from one planet then importing to another for more specialized production or chains. I personally had my planets set up to be specialized, P0 or P1 production then factory worlds that could buffer the asymmetric production of P0 goods. While still possible, this is now much less viable. Personally though I would just be happy with some type of taxless (or tax credit) way of moving intermediate goods like real life taxation systems usually have.

And removed something that you could Solo for anyone doing PI in Lo-Sec. I can't protect an expensive POCO. I probably can't afford to build all 6 that I'd need. And beside's it's Lo-Sec!!! They'd be dead and gone long before they'd paid for themselves!

I do feel the change has made me as an industrial biased character feel a little left in the cold. Like another poster said it feels like we are being given the hint that we are playing it wrong. I sometimes feel that industrialists only exist to provide PvP content for the proper PvP biased players!

Find someone who you can pay (maybe with those silly taxes) to put up a POCO and protect it.