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Exploration Loot Brainstorming.

Author
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-06-20 06:59:41 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
A good pass on the loot across the exploration sites is in our backlog.

Now would be a good time for us as players to give feedback on what we would like to see as loot for exploration.

Keeping a few things in mind

  • Risk vs Reward
  • There are no wrong opinions is a brainstorming session.
  • Keep things reasonable if you want them to be takes serously.


The Sites that could be looked at are

  • Data Sites
  • Relic Sites
  • Ghost Sties
  • DED Complexes
  • Unrated Combat Signatures
  • Combat Anomalies (Maybe)


Also try to provide feedback on site difficulity comnpaired to allowable ship types for each site.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#2 - 2014-06-20 07:33:22 UTC
Data = fine
Relic = fine
Ghost sites = some of the stuff is deadended right now, because it seems CCP hasn't delivered part of the vision, bit of a captains quarter door effect in progress.
DED complexes = fine
Unrated complexes = fine (the only issue with these is frequency of breaking of the escalation chain).
Combat anomolies = fine (they escalate to a ded)
Talia Valta
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-06-20 08:47:53 UTC
I picked up a couple of tech 2 rig bpc's last night.

The only trouble with this is the lack of all the resources to make the t2 rigs.

I can get 75% of the resources where I am, but the other 25% is in another region.

Can this be adjusted or is it part of the overall game plan?

Other than this little gripe, I consider the sites to be fine.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#4 - 2014-06-20 10:12:40 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Talia Valta wrote:

Can this be adjusted or is it part of the overall game plan?




What *) do you think?


*) = *Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#5 - 2014-06-20 11:33:05 UTC
Add new data sites, like the old data sites. Like how the current data sites should have been added not replaced over the old ones.
Rat spawns, cans, no mini-game, no special rigs or modules needed (apart from the old hacking module), no cargo scanners needed, put them in everyplace but highsec.

Just like the old sites, but a new name would be fine. Don't care about uber loot, it was just fun and worth doing. The return of the fighting hacking explorers. Was a good part of this game, missed by many for the gaming content, not just loot arguments as it seems to be now.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Chumski Albino
Doomheim
#6 - 2014-06-20 17:13:13 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Rat spawns, cans, no mini-game, no special rigs or modules needed (apart from the old hacking module), no cargo scanners needed, put them in everyplace but highsec.


Just run combat sites?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#7 - 2014-06-20 17:37:40 UTC
Loot must be rare for you to call it loot. That is all Big smile
Toddfish
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#8 - 2014-06-20 19:33:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Toddfish
I think there needs to an addition of a new type of loot in the data/relic sites. Loot, similar to the overseer effects in DED sites, with an NPC seeded market that is independent from salvage/invention materials (and the associated production/markets). This loot would allow for the adjusting of rewards based on risk without impacting other aspects of the game by increasing/decreasing supply. It would also hopefully prevent the crashing of market value to do increased supply, like what happened with the release of Odyssey).

I think if the range of skill books dropped was expanded, that alone could almost cover this need. There is already an NPC seeded market and some of the books can be quite valuable. It would be awesome to see a Caldari Carrier skill book drop while running a site.

As for the other sites (Ghost, DED, etc.) I think the loot is fine. There are some aspects of the mechanics that I'd like changed (like having Ghost Sites require scan probes rather than just showing up on the on-board scanner), but that's a different discussion. I also think it would be nice to have additional difficulties/tiers of data/relic sites.
Chumski Albino
Doomheim
#9 - 2014-06-20 19:56:56 UTC
Toddfish wrote:
I think there needs to an addition of a new type of loot in the data/relic sites. Loot, similar to the overseer effects in DED sites, with an NPC seeded market that is independent from salvage/invention materials (and the associated production/markets). This loot would allow for the adjusting of rewards based on risk without impacting other aspects of the game by increasing/decreasing supply. It would also hopefully prevent the crashing of market value to do increased supply, like what happened with the release of Odyssey).


While I understand your concern for being at the mercy of demand/supply shifts to profit from your favorite and one of my favorite activities, I very much disagree with this. More isk faucets are the last thing this game needs in general. IMHO if they do anything for exploration in that vein, CCP could put in a token for some SOE LP (which is always in high demand due to pretty much all of their rewards being useful to explorers, combat scanners, and wormhole residents alike). That wouldn't simply inject more isk, and it would also put downward pressure on the SOE LP that makes the SOE faction ships relatively expensive.

Toddfish wrote:

I think if the range of skill books dropped was expanded, that alone could almost cover this need. There is already an NPC seeded market and some of the books can be quite valuable. It would be awesome to see a Caldari Carrier skill book drop while running a site.


Sure. I see nothing wrong with player competition to NPC seeded markets.

Toddfish wrote:

As for the other sites (Ghost, DED, etc.) I think the loot is fine. There are some aspects of the mechanics that I'd like changed (like having Ghost Sites require scan probes rather than just showing up on the on-board scanner), but that's a different discussion. I also think it would be nice to have additional difficulties/tiers of data/relic sites.


Agree about the Ghost and DED, but I don't support adding arbitrary tiers to data/relics. I'd be quite sad if newbros were unable to do nullsec sites because they didn't spend a month training V's. That's not a solution to the saturation problem (well, it is in the short-run), it's just an un-fun stopgap.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
WE FORM BL0B
#10 - 2014-06-20 22:39:37 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Add new data sites, like the old data sites. Like how the current data sites should have been added not replaced over the old ones.
Rat spawns, cans, no mini-game, no special rigs or modules needed (apart from the old hacking module), no cargo scanners needed, put them in everyplace but highsec.

Just like the old sites, but a new name would be fine. Don't care about uber loot, it was just fun and worth doing. The return of the fighting hacking explorers. Was a good part of this game, missed by many for the gaming content, not just loot arguments as it seems to be now.


An idea is that the current data and relic sites could escalate into combat data and combat relics. Pure hackers can sell on the bookmarks on as ratters do sometimes for anomaly escalations.

Aside from that drones sites are in need of serious love, the lower level unrated needs to be looked at as well.

Ghost sites are...a bit of meh. In game play and isk. The empires don't want us there but we can breeze through with the loot in high sec no problem....hmm.




Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#11 - 2014-06-20 23:29:17 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:


An idea is that the current data and relic sites could escalate into combat data and combat relics. Pure hackers can sell on the bookmarks on as ratters do sometimes for anomaly escalations.

Aside from that drones sites are in need of serious love, the lower level unrated needs to be looked at as well.

Ghost sites are...a bit of meh. In game play and isk. The empires don't want us there but we can breeze through with the loot in high sec no problem....hmm.





Problem with that is that it gives you a predefined location, much like a mission or a ded site (general system). Cambat hacking, a big draw was the search, then into the site with expectation of battle, the unknown, it woke you up on the warp-in. Then even while you were hacking, more rats could spawn. You could also keep an eye out for other players, to fight, ignore, or run. Running star system after star system, searching, through all areas of the game, searching for a site, then diving into battle, into the unknown, with a ship not just like the next ship but often unique to the player.

They did this whole revamp for new players, used it as a marketing gimmick to get new players in the game through website adverts. Then used the carrot of loot to make it a "success" (which drove down loot prices). Like they did with bounty hunting, though that was more just about marketing gimmick alone, for new players, as there is no real bounty hunting system us vets can recognize. Not saying they should remove the new system, just that adding back the old system as another system would be the way to go. We'd might even start seeing threads in this forum again about the gameplay of it, were so many such threads, rather than just loot discussions/complaints.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

Toddfish
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#12 - 2014-06-21 00:08:31 UTC
Chumski Albino wrote:
While I understand your concern for being at the mercy of demand/supply shifts to profit from your favorite and one of my favorite activities, I very much disagree with this. More isk faucets are the last thing this game needs in general.

I don't really see how the value of data/relic sites can be increased using the current loot that is found within them. If they increase the drop rate the markets will compensate with decreasing prices (as happened with Odyssey). If they decrease the drop rate the prices might eventually increase, but the immediate change would be a decrease in the site's value. I'm guessing there would also be backlash for the effect of salvage value on rig prices if things increased to pre-Odyessey levels.

The same would be true for almost anything purely market driven. If it started to drop in data/relic sites at significant rates, the prices would just go down. The loot would have to either be new (like the Mordu's and Ghost Site loot), managed at some level by NPCs, or it's just the same cycle all over again.

Chumski Albino wrote:
IMHO if they do anything for exploration in that vein, CCP could put in a token for some SOE LP (which is always in high demand due to pretty much all of their rewards being useful to explorers, combat scanners, and wormhole residents alike). That wouldn't simply inject more isk, and it would also put downward pressure on the SOE LP that makes the SOE faction ships relatively expensive.

I like this idea.

Chumski Albino wrote:
I don't support adding arbitrary tiers to data/relics. I'd be quite sad if newbros were unable to do nullsec sites because they didn't spend a month training V's. That's not a solution to the saturation problem (well, it is in the short-run), it's just an un-fun stopgap.

My goal with tiered sites is to allow newbros to prosper from the current data/relic sites... and have progression (with added risk/reward) for exploration vets. I think the sites that currently exist should remain (no rats, etc.). That way a newbro can still do sites in null (solo, in a frig, with minimal skills), just not all of them. As the newbro skills up there would be a progression of sites to gap between the current ones and the pure combat DED sites. I kinda think of it like the different levels of anoms.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#13 - 2014-06-21 09:01:23 UTC
Chumski Albino wrote:
... I don't support adding arbitrary tiers to data/relics. I'd be quite sad if newbros were unable to do nullsec sites because they didn't spend a month training V's. That's not a solution to the saturation problem (well, it is in the short-run), it's just an un-fun stopgap.


We already have tiers in exploration. Some null cans are easier than others and with loot spread among (not tied to can difficulty level) newbros have access to null anyway. I don't support this. If we can do anything from day 0 why bother with skills anyway? Player must put some effort to expand his game avatar to do better things. For now it's like lvl 3 skills are enough for null sec exploration with the most valuable loot. You can't do lvl4 securities in cruiser, can you? There is no risk vs rewards in non combat exploration (or very little, low-sec maybe) so there must be some other thresholds.

Basically we went from hardcore, good isk making profession to very easy, isk grind second activity.

Relic sites are good, just put best loot to hardest cans. it's salvaging with hacking device so maybe some new items in there.

Data sites. Why data cores weight so much? Memory cards becomes smaller and smaller every year, this things are 1m3. More BPC variety. No matter what sec statuts i get same copies from cans.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Conjaq
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-06-21 11:45:28 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Data = fine
Relic = fine
Ghost sites = some of the stuff is deadended right now, because it seems CCP hasn't delivered part of the vision, bit of a captains quarter door effect in progress.
DED complexes = fine
Unrated complexes = fine (the only issue with these is frequency of breaking of the escalation chain).
Combat anomolies = fine (they escalate to a ded)



I second this.

Unrated complexes, needs abit more consistency regarding their escalation chances.. but otherwise it's pretty much perfect.



The differences between the factions are very unbalanced tho.. Serpentis faction sites are very easy, while sansha / blood raiders are extremely hard soloey because of neuts.


Taegessia
Doomheim
#15 - 2014-06-21 13:09:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Taegessia
Conjaq wrote:
The differences between the factions are very unbalanced tho.. Serpentis faction sites are very easy, while sansha / blood raiders are extremely hard soloey because of neuts.


Blood Raiders neut, Sansha track disrupt.

"Please add an option to automatically repackage & stack our currently unpackaged items in our item hangar".

Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#16 - 2014-06-21 13:37:02 UTC
I remember seeing, long ago, a post from CCP saying exploration should produce more ISK per hour than any other in-space activity. More than mining, more than missions. In high sec, it surely does not do that. L4 missions are still king.

What could be done? Simply increasing the amount of loot from data and relic sites will not work, the market will just tank even worse than now. I suggest increasing the breadth of loot, that is, increasing the loot types. For example;

Right now you occasionally get skillbooks as loot, but only a few types. Add more types, possibly every skillbook in the game. Keep the drop rate of any one book to a low value, so the market will not tank. But as there are so many skillbooks, there will still be alot of them dropping, adding value.

Have BPOs drop (yes, I said originals). Again, include many types, maybe every one in the game. Again, insure the drop rate of any one type is low, well below the current NPC sale rate, so the price will not tank.

Many modules have no faction or deadspace versions. For example, cap rechargers and drone enhancement modules. Add those to the game, and have them drop at exploration sites.

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Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#17 - 2014-06-21 14:10:33 UTC
Toddfish wrote:

My goal with tiered sites is to allow newbros to prosper from the current data/relic sites... and have progression (with added risk/reward) for exploration vets. I think the sites that currently exist should remain (no rats, etc.). That way a newbro can still do sites in null (solo, in a frig, with minimal skills), just not all of them. As the newbro skills up there would be a progression of sites to gap between the current ones and the pure combat DED sites. I kinda think of it like the different levels of anoms.


That is the role that highsec deds perform.

I have an indy alt with distinctly lesser combat skills than this one, and it can do serpentis phi, gurista scout outpost and mul zatar with a vexor. It can also get into the ded3s. I bought it a vexor recently, and within 2 hours of buying and fitting it, I'd probed down 2 gurista guerilla grounds, and looted 200m from the second one.

That's exactly the thing new explorers wanting to move to combat should do. They might get outraced a few times, but sooner or later they'll jackpot and be able to buy themselves a navy cruiser.

Trying to live in null as a newbie with a relatively sluggish non covops warping cruiser with imperfect avoidance skills both SP and pilot related is too harsh, and residents like me will rapidly wear down the loot value by being able to speed run the newbie stuff (for obvious reasons we'll prioritise any content that earns more than ratting until it doesn't), and a stratios is just too expensive for a newbie to lose.

The reasons that makes nullsec exploration works for newbies without rats, is because frigates are all agile, and because it doesn't destroy game balance if a t2 covops ship has 1 drone or 1 gun, and the imicus, magnate and the like have 3 drones and can beat a covops in head-to-head combat, which allows the new player a reasonable defence against older players in the better hacking ships.

They can't balance combat ships further along the tree in the same way.

Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#18 - 2014-06-21 14:28:53 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
I remember seeing, long ago, a post from CCP saying exploration should produce more ISK per hour than any other in-space activity. More than mining, more than missions. In high sec, it surely does not do that. L4 missions are still king.



I don't think its a problem. The pilot that can earn 100m/hr in missions in battleships could also have specialized in hacs with the same amount of sp invested and earned 100m/hr hunting scout outposts.

There is no way any market for highsec relics can stay up when its accessible by newbie ships like the imicus.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#19 - 2014-06-21 23:06:23 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
There is no way any market for highsec relics can stay up when its accessible by newbie ships like the imicus.

Can we make exploration newbros friendly (low Sp and cheap ships) with good amount IKS to earn? We can't. It doesn't matter how you will change loot tables. It matters what you need to do to get the loot.

Now we have curious situation. You can earn same amount of money in Lvl4's as in null non combat exploration. Only lvl 4's need few more millions of SP to drive through. Risk vs reward? a joke. If risk vs reward was the main cause for sites profitability low sec should pay the most.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#20 - 2014-06-22 09:11:49 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
There is no way any market for highsec relics can stay up when its accessible by newbie ships like the imicus.

Can we make exploration newbros friendly (low Sp and cheap ships) with good amount IKS to earn? We can't. It doesn't matter how you will change loot tables. It matters what you need to do to get the loot.

Now we have curious situation. You can earn same amount of money in Lvl4's as in null non combat exploration. Only lvl 4's need few more millions of SP to drive through. Risk vs reward? a joke. If risk vs reward was the main cause for sites profitability low sec should pay the most.


Except most scanboat pilots not having implants (unlike mission runners), and for the scanboat pilots having to traverse non valuable space to start and for scanboat pilots getting killed, or even worse, having to do the pod-walk of shame home. My api doesn't pull, so when I kill a 3 month old scanboat pilot, nobody knows. Trust me I kill quite a few.

There are now plenty of things in lowsec that pay well nowadays, it has been thoroughly revitalized (and as an ex lowsec operator, I approve).
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