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Restrict NPC Corporation Posting Abilities.

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Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#721 - 2014-06-21 02:29:23 UTC
Kaerakh wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

Actually I'm saying that an argument with no real weight can be dismissed by one without weight. Or something along those lines.


Then you should point out the ways that the argument does not have sufficient weight.

At the the risk of being overly combative:
La Nariz wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

Actually I'm saying that an argument with no real weight can be dismissed by one without weight. Or something along those lines.


You'd have to prove it has no real weight which you haven't done anything more than "lol no u."


He's fairly correct in his position. Returning supposition with supposition gets you absolutely no where.


Its gotten him 36 pages of nonsense. If you wanted to see where I made posts actually addressing his you can look earlier in the thread. By now I've gotten tired of his constant evasion and emotional appeals and I'm just going to keep calling him out on those since addressing his points gets you nowhere, he just ignores any counterargument with real substance.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#722 - 2014-06-21 02:31:27 UTC
Smugest Sniper wrote:
La Nariz wrote:

I dwell more on SA than I do here so yes I know and I think there's a reason helldump no longer exists.


Do you know what happened to that thread in PI with Crisco Disco and his cats? I've not been on forums in general recently.

Also RIP Rainbow Cake thread.


No but I do know what happened to Kyle IDR so yeah it basically boils down to doxxing is bad and people shouldn't do it. Which I have spoken out against doxxing several times in the thread.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#723 - 2014-06-21 02:37:09 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:


Its gotten him 36 pages of nonsense. If you wanted to see where I made posts actually addressing his you can look earlier in the thread. By now I've gotten tired of his constant evasion and emotional appeals and I'm just going to keep calling him out on those since addressing his points gets you nowhere, he just ignores any counterargument with real substance.


You refuse to acknowledge the historical evidence I base the suggestion in the OP on and are just wildly gesticulating at this point. You have to give me more than this if you want any sort of discussion otherwise you can continue to be an example of why this should happen.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#724 - 2014-06-21 02:37:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaerakh
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Kaerakh wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

Actually I'm saying that an argument with no real weight can be dismissed by one without weight. Or something along those lines.


Then you should point out the ways that the argument does not have sufficient weight.

At the the risk of being overly combative:
La Nariz wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

Actually I'm saying that an argument with no real weight can be dismissed by one without weight. Or something along those lines.


You'd have to prove it has no real weight which you haven't done anything more than "lol no u."


He's fairly correct in his position. Returning supposition with supposition gets you absolutely no where.


Its gotten him 36 pages of nonsense. If you wanted to see where I made posts actually addressing his you can look earlier in the thread. By now I've gotten tired of his constant evasion and emotional appeals and I'm just going to keep calling him out on those since addressing his points gets you nowhere, he just ignores any counterargument with real substance.


Fair enough then. It's probably best not to indulge him further(If that's your stance). Especially since CCP devs are big boys and girls and know how to make proper decisions at least 18/20 times. *cough*Incarna*cough*Empyrean Age*throatclear*

Schrodinger's Hot Dropper

The Fate of Forum Alts

Guaranteed Success
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#725 - 2014-06-21 02:37:54 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Actually it's not hyperbolic. It's an extrapolation of the simple logic that if I can do it in game I should be able to discuss it in the forums. For your idea of being in an NPC corp being unable to post in many sections to mirror the in game consequence of being in an NPC corp would essentially require such a restriction. It was a false equivalency and required a statement that was seemingly hyperbolic to accurately portray. That alone highlights a certain level of absurdity in the proposed and one such reasoning for it.

Regarding the people, lets not forget that we should look at WHAT and the amount of posts as well. A single troll that someone bit is worth comparably nothing in the face of even a couple useful spreadsheets from Stoicfaux, Tippia's blog, chribba's tools, Gripen's EFT to name a few. To think that a character of far less significance and activity cancels them out seems hardly a justifiable position.

Regarding the definition of essential, that was addressed from both angles. There isn't any function that those subforums hold that couldn't be rolled into another area thus making them non-essential save recruitment. That said, it being essential for forum functionality adds no value to it's use for those not looking to recruit or be recruited. Thus the term essential is rendered either untrue or wholly irrelevant to those affected.

I was informed that cycling alts to avoid consequence was an exploit, while I haven't verified if forum reputation is one such banable offense, you could always try. Worst case you lose nothing, best you achieve a targeted lasting solution.


Except it wouldn't, a much better mirror is super capital construction. "I want to build a super capital so I must join a nullsec corporation that holds sovereignty." "I want to post on all of the forums so I must join a player corporation that has 10+ members."

Content is even more subjective than WHO.

You are discounting the relevance of the existence of options in the first place. Sure they might not use the recruitment forum but, its there should they decide they want to use it. Not having any use for something at the moment does not mean they are unimportant.

Yeah we're not allowed to discuss this sort of thing so I can't provide the proof I've seen but, from what I gather recycling forum alts is a thing and not even urban legends exist of what you referenced there.
That works if you can somehow reasonably equate capital construction to posting on the forums. Problem being you can't. The problem being witnessed here is that the equivalency is being drawn by nothing more than your own opinion. The idea that I can participate in the game and/or aspects thereof but not discuss them is in no way a reasonable equivalency unless you can explain why. So far you haven't, you've just stated you feel it is.

Content is subjecting, but amounts of content can be quantified. Disposable alts created for a particular whine or troll don't produce much. Those in the game for the long haul with information to share and discussions to have tend to produce quite a bit.

And I'm not discounting relevance, rather that your definition of it so far has in no way separated the sections you would allow from the rest of the forums. Every subforum is there for you to use should you decide to. There also there to ignore should you decide not to use them.
Smugest Sniper
neko island
Deedspace Consortium
#726 - 2014-06-21 02:39:50 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

Its gotten him 36 pages of nonsense. If you wanted to see where I made posts actually addressing his you can look earlier in the thread. By now I've gotten tired of his constant evasion and emotional appeals and I'm just going to keep calling him out on those since addressing his points gets you nowhere, he just ignores any counterargument with real substance.


If there was an SA mod here you both would likely be kitten caged for the sheer obtuseness at whats being discussed.

Dragging something out 36 pages is nonsense, and you both are baiting each other further and further. and not really doing much but argue.

Criticize constructively or you just shitpoast for eternity.

Ultimately it is neither of your decisions on whats implemented and less and less facts and data is being brought into the thread.

While I think there are some merits to the suggestion it's too easy to manipulate and fudge the system as all you need is to make an alt corp and alt alliance "Collective Anonymous Posting Alliance" etc etc and it's a non issue.

Realistically I do not see a non-**** work around for this supposed problem.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#727 - 2014-06-21 02:57:18 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
That works if you can somehow reasonably equate capital construction to posting on the forums. Problem being you can't. The problem being witnessed here is that the equivalency is being drawn by nothing more than your own opinion. The idea that I can participate in the game and/or aspects thereof but not discuss them is in no way a reasonable equivalency unless you can explain why. So far you haven't, you've just stated you feel it is.

Content is subjecting, but amounts of content can be quantified. Disposable alts created for a particular whine or troll don't produce much. Those in the game for the long haul with information to share and discussions to have tend to produce quite a bit.

And I'm not discounting relevance, rather that your definition of it so far has in no way separated the sections you would allow from the rest of the forums. Every subforum is there for you to use should you decide to. There also there to ignore should you decide not to use them.


Since your own hyperbolic comparison was equally determined by your own opinion does that not make the entire beginning of this thread of your argument also moot?

They don't produce much but there are far more of them than their are Chribbas and Stoicfauxes.

I don't believe I've explicitly defined essential I've stated why the exceptions should be exceptions but, never defined essential. I've defined active moderation but, not relevance or essential so you're framing your argument on a definition I haven't made?

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#728 - 2014-06-21 03:04:07 UTC
Smugest Sniper wrote:

If there was an SA mod here you both would likely be kitten caged for the sheer obtuseness at whats being discussed.

Dragging something out 36 pages is nonsense, and you both are baiting each other further and further. and not really doing much but argue.

Criticize constructively or you just shitpoast for eternity.

Ultimately it is neither of your decisions on whats implemented and less and less facts and data is being brought into the thread.

While I think there are some merits to the suggestion it's too easy to manipulate and fudge the system as all you need is to make an alt corp and alt alliance "Collective Anonymous Posting Alliance" etc etc and it's a non issue.

Realistically I do not see a non-**** work around for this supposed problem.


If there were SA mods here we wouldn't need this thread terrible posting people would not be able to post in the first place. Which takes us back around to the idea that empowered moderators would do wonders for this forum. I agree with the point it could be another part of the solution since there is no silver bullet to the problem.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Smugest Sniper
neko island
Deedspace Consortium
#729 - 2014-06-21 03:10:54 UTC
La Nariz wrote:

If there were SA mods here we wouldn't need this thread terrible posting people would not be able to post in the first place. Which takes us back around to the idea that empowered moderators would do wonders for this forum. I agree with the point it could be another part of the solution since there is no silver bullet to the problem.


You take that back, shitposting is a time honored tradition that leads to the glories of the Gas chamber.

Also Groon Forums: Kings of Shitpoast. and PVP Juggernaut
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#730 - 2014-06-21 03:16:18 UTC
Smugest Sniper wrote:
La Nariz wrote:

If there were SA mods here we wouldn't need this thread terrible posting people would not be able to post in the first place. Which takes us back around to the idea that empowered moderators would do wonders for this forum. I agree with the point it could be another part of the solution since there is no silver bullet to the problem.


You take that back, shitposting is a time honored tradition that leads to the glories of the Gas chamber.

Also Groon Forums: Kings of Shitpoast. and PVP Juggernaut


That's what BYOB and FYAD are for.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Smugest Sniper
neko island
Deedspace Consortium
#731 - 2014-06-21 03:22:20 UTC
La Nariz wrote:


That's what BYOB and FYAD are for.


New thread bring BYOB, FYAD, and GWS to EVE-o.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#732 - 2014-06-21 03:23:04 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
That works if you can somehow reasonably equate capital construction to posting on the forums. Problem being you can't. The problem being witnessed here is that the equivalency is being drawn by nothing more than your own opinion. The idea that I can participate in the game and/or aspects thereof but not discuss them is in no way a reasonable equivalency unless you can explain why. So far you haven't, you've just stated you feel it is.

Content is subjecting, but amounts of content can be quantified. Disposable alts created for a particular whine or troll don't produce much. Those in the game for the long haul with information to share and discussions to have tend to produce quite a bit.

And I'm not discounting relevance, rather that your definition of it so far has in no way separated the sections you would allow from the rest of the forums. Every subforum is there for you to use should you decide to. There also there to ignore should you decide not to use them.


Since your own hyperbolic comparison was equally determined by your own opinion does that not make the entire beginning of this thread of your argument also moot?

They don't produce much but there are far more of them than their are Chribbas and Stoicfauxes.

I don't believe I've explicitly defined essential I've stated why the exceptions should be exceptions but, never defined essential. I've defined active moderation but, not relevance or essential so you're framing your argument on a definition I haven't made?
My comparison wasn't opinion based, but based upon the idea that when you said there should be forum restrictions like in game ones that you intended equivalency, which that was, rather than creating an arbitrary restriction point on the forums which in reality had no in game peer. I suppose it is rendered moot but that is because as stated, arbitrary break points are arbitrary. Still, that leaves the burden of proof on you.

So we come down to which is more important, content or numbers. I'd argue the nature of the game leans in the direction of content.

You haven't defined essential, but you called them essential. I sought to demonstrate that they don't fit the definition of the word from the standpoint of an individual player or the forums as a whole. I am aware of why you propose those sections, though that doesn't make them essential unless you are working under a different definition.

Actually no, I don't, not fully.

Particularly I find it odd that you would restrict a class of player from posting about the game in general and refining their views based upon high level community feedback, but for some reason expect that same person to be able to generate good suggestions for the game and give valid well reasoned feedback for proposed changes.

The rest I get, but that amounts to basically giving the finger to those who actually choose live in NPC corps since not a single other subforum you would allow is of any use to them.
Smugest Sniper
neko island
Deedspace Consortium
#733 - 2014-06-21 03:26:37 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:


The rest I get, but that amounts to basically giving the finger to those who actually choose live in NPC corps since not a single other subforum you would allow is of any use to them.


To demonstrate a counter point; You don't post in Pet Island if you hate animals, and you don't belong in Alliance and real player corp discussion save recruitment if you are not in one. It's a very simplistic concept.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#734 - 2014-06-21 03:30:41 UTC
Smugest Sniper wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:


The rest I get, but that amounts to basically giving the finger to those who actually choose live in NPC corps since not a single other subforum you would allow is of any use to them.


To demonstrate a counter point; You don't post in Pet Island if you hate animals, and you don't belong in Alliance and real player corp discussion save recruitment if you are not in one. It's a very simplistic concept.

That would be valid if such a forum designation existed outside of CAOD. Someone who flies ships and uses mods posting in ships and modules is in no way analogous to a pet hater posting on a pet forum.
Smugest Sniper
neko island
Deedspace Consortium
#735 - 2014-06-21 03:37:33 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

That would be valid if such a forum designation existed outside of CAOD. Someone who flies ships and uses mods posting in ships and modules is in no way analogous to a pet hater posting on a pet forum.


But you do see the point he is attempting to make in his discussion.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#736 - 2014-06-21 03:51:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Smugest Sniper wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

That would be valid if such a forum designation existed outside of CAOD. Someone who flies ships and uses mods posting in ships and modules is in no way analogous to a pet hater posting on a pet forum.

But you do see the point he is attempting to make in his discussion.

What your analogy argues is a different point. It disqualifies posting from those who have nothing to contribute to the topic. That which is suggested in the thread disqualifies a class of posters regardless of their ability to contribute, proven or otherwise.

Or perhaps more targeted, despite the claims to not be attacking a playstyle, could be interpreted as exactly that, literally telling us all we have to leave to post.
Smugest Sniper
neko island
Deedspace Consortium
#737 - 2014-06-21 03:59:03 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Smugest Sniper wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

That would be valid if such a forum designation existed outside of CAOD. Someone who flies ships and uses mods posting in ships and modules is in no way analogous to a pet hater posting on a pet forum.

But you do see the point he is attempting to make in his discussion.

What your analogy argues is a different point. It disqualifies posting from those who have nothing to contribute to the topic. That which is suggested in the thread disqualifies a class of posters regardless of their ability to contribute, proven or otherwise.


The NPC corp's are mean for newbies and vagrants, even CODEdot has corporations and actual player entity level ****.

If you are in an NPC corp you are effectively reducing yourself to a newbie level of play and restricting your interactions to helpless newbies, if you are a mentor, fine, though argueably I've not even been in an NPC corp where people listen to advice very well and come into the game more often then naught with very strong misconceptions of the games mechanics.

You can make a 1 man corp, gather with other forum alts, and establish a greater purpose as there really isn't a cost to maintaining a corporation for such a purpose. It also removes the Bittervet population from tainting newbies in NPC corps with their venomous hate and bile.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#738 - 2014-06-21 04:09:42 UTC
Smugest Sniper wrote:
The NPC corp's are mean for newbies and vagrants, even CODEdot has corporations and actual player entity level ****.

If you are in an NPC corp you are effectively reducing yourself to a newbie level of play and restricting your interactions to helpless newbies, if you are a mentor, fine, though argueably I've not even been in an NPC corp where people listen to advice very well and come into the game more often then naught with very strong misconceptions of the games mechanics.

You can make a 1 man corp, gather with other forum alts, and establish a greater purpose as there really isn't a cost to maintaining a corporation for such a purpose. It also removes the Bittervet population from tainting newbies in NPC corps with their venomous hate and bile.
If you want to have this discussion in depth feel free to start a thread on it and I may join you, but since this isn't the topic of this thread I'm going to try to keep this brief to avoid to much derailing.

If you are in an NPC corp your interactions are limited to everyone in space should you be undocked, new and old alike, and everyone you should chose to engage via other means, like every other player in game.

I can make a forum alt and join a posting corp, but it's probably one of the least bright things I can do to do that with a character I actually play on. It would be infinitely smarter to find an actual playing corp to join if I were inclined to do so. But i'm not, nor are the others who chose not to move on to player corps. This means no one will be leaving NPC corp save the fresh batch of posting alts created to join posting corps, leaving the characters we actually play still supposedly bittervetting it up in NPC.
Smugest Sniper
neko island
Deedspace Consortium
#739 - 2014-06-21 04:20:04 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
[quote=Smugest Sniper], leaving the characters we actually play still supposedly bittervetting it up in NPC.


I fail to understand why you would NPC corp save to avoid wardecs when you can corp tax at 0% instead of the default 10% I think it is for NPC?

But you are correct, Features and Ideas is not the place for this debate, Gas thread please.
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#740 - 2014-06-21 09:12:57 UTC
Maz Ngomo wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, the forums aren't actually part of the game EVE, they are an out of game resource and as such shouldn't be subject to the in-game rules or mentality. Blocking NPC corp characters from the forums would restrict them from asking legitimate questions or replying to issues others have been having that they might have a solution to. The idea that all NPC corp posters are trolls is a fallacy on par with the idea that all miners are bots.

People also need to take into account that a lot of us can't post with our mains due to being forbidden from posting on the forums when we join a corp or alliance. Many organisations have official public relations/diplomatic representatives who are the only ones entitled to speak for said organisation in the media. Some people think this is overly harsh, but to be honest it solves the organisation a lot of headaches and backlashes when people are drunk or stupid and log in with an attitude.

Personally I'd like to see a harsher system of punishment due to rules infringements on the forums applied by the moderators themselves. Maybe a 3-strike system that results in a posting ban for 3 months (or even permanently in severe cases). Not original admittedly, but it seems more fair to me than what is being suggested.



Here's the thing, whatever your name is: the forums are where CSM get elected. The forums are where CCP vets ideas before launch. The forums are where everyone goes around whining about changes both before and after they happen. The forums are 100% a part of EvE.

I would love to challenge you to a forum duel, but it doesn't seem to be working at the moment.

Also, if your corp won't let you post, there are two reasons:

1: you are a terrible poster, and no corp wants to own up to owning you.

2: your corp is effing awful, and you should leave.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon