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Logistics Frigates

Author
Kittamaru
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-12-05 18:51:54 UTC
So, lets take a look at Frigates, shall we?

We have:

Combat (Assault Frigates, Stealth bombers)
E-War (Electronic Attack Frigates)
Tackle (Interceptors)
Exploration (Covert Ops)
OMGWTFBBQSPLOSION (Stealth bombers)
Other (T1 frigs)

What we are missing is logistics capacity in a frigate... now, is this really needed...? Perhaps, perhaps not. I know I, personally, find super-fast wolfpacks to be hella fun (half dozen AF's with a few EAF's = fun times had by all while out hunting solo targets). Adding a logistics vessel into the mix would extend the duration at which these fleets could remain out on the prowl.

Gallente: Based on the Navitas hull
Gal Frig skill bonus: 5% Bonus to cargo capacity and 5% reduction to signature radius per level.
Logistics Skill Bonus: 150% bonus to Remote Armor Repair system and Tracking link range and 15% reduction to Remote Armor Repair System capacitor use per level

Role Bonus: 100% bonus to remote armor repair amount

Structure
Structure HP: 750
Max Velocity: 350 m/s
Inertia Modifier: 3.6
Mass: 1.22 million KG
Volume: 11kms
Cargo: 200 m3

Armor
Armor HP: 521 HP
EM Resist: 50%
Exp. Resist: 10%
Kin. Resist: 83.75%
Therm. Resist: 67.5%

Shield
Shield HP: 320 HP
EM Resist: 0%
Exp. Resist: 50%
Kin. Resist: 85%
Therm. Resist: 60%
Shield recharge time: 675,000 seconds

Fitting
PG: 45 MW
CPU: 155 tf
High slots: 4
Medium Slots: 3
Low Slots: 4
Launcher Hardpoints: 0
Turret Hardpoints: 2
Calibration: 400 points
Upgrade Hardpoints: 2

Drones
Drone Capacity: 10 m3
Drone Bandwidth: 10 Mbit/sec

Capacitor
Recharge Time: 195,500 seconds
Capacity: 375 GJ

Targeting
Maximum Range: 54 km
Max Targets: 6
Magnetometric Strength: 11
Signature Radius: 37 m
Scan Resolution: 950mm

The idea is to place it somewhere between an AF and an Interceptor in speed and durability - quick and agile enough to duck in and out of combat with the ability to shrug off one or two hits. The cargo space allows it to carry a little spare ammunition for the frigate fleets it will be supporting. It utilizes bonuses different from its bigger brother, the Oneiros, to provide quick repair ability at the expense of longevity - able to pump out large amounts of armor in a short time at the risk of quickly draining its capacitor, leaving it unable to evade enemy fire. With only two turret hardpoints and no damage bonus it isn't much of a threat while it's limited defenses ensure it must get out of the way before being destroyed.

Obviously, other races ships would be optimized for their patterns.

So, what do you guys think? I'm sure some tweaking is needed... but eh, figured it was a start.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#2 - 2011-12-05 19:04:46 UTC
Finally, a use for the small DED shield/armor RR modules that are laying around ... oh, wait, they're still worse than the T2 ones.

I still like the idea of logi frigates. I don't know exactly how used they would be, but it does sound quite fun to fly.
Kittamaru
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2011-12-05 19:07:42 UTC
How well used they are depends on how often wolfpacks of small ships are used - part of the idea is that, logi frigates would be cheaper than full sized logi's, as well as faster and easier to fly. This makes them perfect for the training of new wolfpacks (or for flying frigate/dessie wolfpacks) and a great stepping stone to cruiser sized warfare (HAC's, HIC's, and Logis w/ BC's)
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2011-12-05 19:28:57 UTC
Would be a good way of letting new pilots learn if they want to fly logistics without having to train Cruiser V/Logi V
Best idea though would be giving T1 logi actually good bonuses.
Kittamaru
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2011-12-06 05:07:45 UTC
Exactly. Honestly, I don't see a reason NOT to implement something like this - in large-scale ops they wouldn't add enough remote rep to really make a huge difference, but used well in small gangs they can be a godsend. Additionally, they could even be used in a quick-deployment scenario (say an important gang or a jump freighter or a carrier or what not) gets jumped by a handful of baddies - one or two guys could hop in one of these and zip there ahead of any rescue fleet to help keep the poor victim alive long enough for help to arrive (yeah, teamwork, woo!)
Sanguine Belroth
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2011-12-06 05:19:58 UTC
I think range would be the real issue for this sort of Logi.

If you are rocking small reps- You would need a 600% range bonus or something absurd. In frig battles, people are all over the place. Range control is very crucial to staying alive.

The t1 cruisers are cheap, and effective for small gangs. And give ~30km range.
Just throw a couple of Nano's on them so they can keep up with your wolfpack.

Small reps will remain fairly useless except for post battle top ups I'm afraid.

Jonas Xiamon
#7 - 2011-12-06 06:47:43 UTC
While though I'm certainly not opposed to the addition of this, and am in fact supportive of it; I feel that the situations in which these frigs are useful are so rare, that there may be better ways to spend time improving the game.

I usally write one of these and then change it a month later when I reread it and decide it sounds stupid.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#8 - 2011-12-06 09:12:01 UTC
Not too keen on adding yet another frigate hull to the various line-ups, already rather crowded in the light classes, especially one that is useless doing all but one thing.

All the T2 frigates have dual/triple roles,
- Bombers dps, scout, bomb and can act as cyno for BO's.
- Interceptors tackle and have highest speed in game.
- EAS are mini-recons with primary + secondary eWar options.
- CovOps scout, probe and can act as cyno for BO's.

The only one NOT living up to it is .. you guessed it .. the AF. They do dps (sort of) and has a little more tank, both hindered by them being as heavy as truck-stop fry cook.

Give the AF's (or half of them) a logistics role!
Aethlyn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2011-12-06 09:59:17 UTC
Nice, my reply was ganked... another take on:

Granting Attack Frigates that role would be contraproductive. They're all about offense and damage after all. A Logistics role or bonus wouldn't really work with that, plus it would make it rather hard to "spot" such Logistics.

I'd rather like to see a new line of T2 destroyers being introduced. Right now there's no real use to get T2 destroyers, unless you'd like to go for the interdictor role. By creating a "Logistics Destroyer" you could get a smaller/easier to train Logistics hull, while making Destroyers more attractive and providing a ship that's easier to hit for small and large enemies. Having a tiny ship (i.e. frigate) that you can't hit while it keeps repairing the targets you actually could hit sounds quite unfair in some situations.

Also, on a further note: There are T1 cruisers having a Logistics bonus. People just ignore them most of the time (from what I've seen). If you'd really like to go for Logistics, you could test the waters with one of these, although being not as effective as with the T2, you could still lend a hand as well as see how it plays.

Looking for more thoughts? Follow me on Twitter.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#10 - 2011-12-06 10:31:36 UTC
Aethlyn wrote:
Granting Attack Frigates that role would be contraproductive. They're all about offense and damage after all. A Logistics role or bonus wouldn't really work with that, plus it would make it rather hard to "spot" such Logistics.

Where is it written that they should be mini-HACs forever more? They are slated for a revision so why not make them interesting and valuable while we are at it. As for being hard to "spot", so what? Adds to the complexity of combat which is a good thing in my opinion .. the mono-purpose design philosophy that permeates Eve ships makes every fight a carbon copy of all prior fights; nuke ECM, neut logistics, kill dps .. repeat until eyes are gouged out .. it is BORING!

Eve needs more jokers and T3's while awesome at being unpredictable are just too damn expensive to throw away on a regular basis Big smile
Aethlyn wrote:
...Also, on a further note: There are T1 cruisers having a Logistics bonus. People just ignore them most of the time (from what I've seen). If you'd really like to go for Logistics, you could test the waters with one of these, although being not as effective as with the T2, you could still lend a hand as well as see how it plays.

Don't know why people keep bringing this up, there is only two T1 cruiser with a logistics bonus, the (P)Osprey and Exequror, the other two have the secondary bonuses that are inherited by the T2 cruisers .. related but separate issue, all four should have logistics capability if you ask me.
Also doesn't address the point of getting a ship that can keep up with a light swarm which the main reason why I would like to see a frigate (destroyer might work but they are Fugly by comparison Smile) logistics platform ..

I'll go away now, carry on.
Obsidiana
Atrament Inc.
#11 - 2011-12-07 09:36:45 UTC
I would like to see something that could spider tank, had an HP bonus, a damage bonus, maybe even a command bonus. Something designed to fight in a group.

Granted, that combination could work for any class ship. And yes, I just described T3. I'm hoping for something like this in T3 frigates.
Kittamaru
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2011-12-07 15:51:33 UTC
Making a T3 Frigate could be interesting... though the potential for SP loss would be astronomical due to the simple fact that... well, they don't have much tank to em... hence why i was thinking of sticking with T2.

HOWEVER, Logistics Destroyers could be interesting...

Gallente: Based on the Catalyst hull
Gal Destroyer skill bonus: 5% Bonus to cargo capacity and 7.5% reduction to signature radius per level.
Logistics Skill Bonus: 50% bonus to effectiveness of Remote Armor Repair systems and 15% reduction to Remote Armor Repair System capacitor use per level

Role Bonus: 500% bonus to range of remote armor repair systems and tracking links

(this results, at max ship skills (excluding other skills), in a 500m3 cargo bay, 46.8 m sig radius, 240 armor / SAR2 cycle with a 13.5 GJ activation, with a 24km SAR2 range and 32.5km tracking link range)

Structure
Structure HP: 950
Max Velocity: 305 m/s
Inertia Modifier: 3.43
Mass: 1.42 million KG
Volume: 55kms
Cargo: 400 m3

Armor
Armor HP: 721 HP
EM Resist: 50%
Exp. Resist: 10%
Kin. Resist: 83.75%
Therm. Resist: 67.5%

Shield
Shield HP: 620 HP
EM Resist: 0%
Exp. Resist: 50%
Kin. Resist: 85%
Therm. Resist: 60%
Shield recharge time: 675,000 seconds

Fitting
PG: 45 MW
CPU: 155 tf
High slots: 8
Medium Slots: 3
Low Slots: 5
Launcher Hardpoints: 0
Turret Hardpoints: 4
Calibration: 400 points
Upgrade Hardpoints: 2

Drones
Drone Capacity: 10 m3
Drone Bandwidth: 10 Mbit/sec

Capacitor
Recharge Time: 195,500 seconds
Capacity: 375 GJ

Targeting
Maximum Range: 57 km
Max Targets: 8
Magnetometric Strength: 11
Signature Radius: 75 m
Scan Resolution: 900mm

Essentially taking the frigate idea and translating it over to a destroyer... a little more life, still very quick so it can keep pace. *shrugs* Adds some variety and should be quick/easy to program in :)
Goose99
#13 - 2011-12-07 16:01:48 UTC
With frigate speed being what it is, you'd think they'll need longer rep range than large logistics. How much bonus would that be for small rrs?
Kittamaru
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2011-12-07 16:37:21 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
With frigate speed being what it is, you'd think they'll need longer rep range than large logistics. How much bonus would that be for small rrs?


*shrugs* you could boost it to a 1,000% bonus to range and it'd be about 50km... the idea, though, is these are ducking in and out of enemy fire WITH the combat ships, not holding off in the distance.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#15 - 2011-12-07 18:33:37 UTC

I'm not opposed to the idea of logistics frigates, but I'd much prefer they fix t1 logistics ships:

Both the Exeq & Osprey have the potential to become great low-cost logistics ships with only minor tweeks.

As for logistics frigates, they need to fit medium RR modules to be effective!

The purpose of logistics is a force multiplier. In a standard fleet battle, one logi ship easily negates the dps of 2+ enemy ships.This has a cascading effect, so that a fleet with a few logis can take on reasonable larger fleets and win. Now, assuming one logi-frigate provides 4 small RR, its range and rep quanitty really limit the the "force multiplier" effect. Essentially 4 Small RR doesn't negate much more than the dps of a single frigate, let alone a destroyer+ class hull.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#16 - 2011-12-07 20:59:28 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
..As for logistics frigates, they need to fit medium RR modules to be effective!..

Well one can either give them a bonus to oversize modules as was done on logistics cruisers or one can apply an efficiency bonus .. the +100% the OP lists as role bonus makes every small RR perform like a medium just with faster cycling (yes, the numbers really line up that nicely Smile)
Note: I am actually of two minds in regards to magnitude of said bonus as they'd be immensely powerful considering the low'ish dps of light hulls .. +50% might be enough to make them viable and then giving them some more range.

Added benefit is that we will finally have a use for a module that is never used (small rr) and it will be a lot easier to decide on a range envelope in which they they should operate (logi cruisers support ships with ranges 0-100km+, frigs top out at 30-40km or so)

Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
#17 - 2011-12-07 22:00:52 UTC
Kittamaru wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
With frigate speed being what it is, you'd think they'll need longer rep range than large logistics. How much bonus would that be for small rrs?


*shrugs* you could boost it to a 1,000% bonus to range and it'd be about 50km... the idea, though, is these are ducking in and out of enemy fire WITH the combat ships, not holding off in the distance.



think he is getting at oh crap just in case of overshoot range in an orbit. Zippy frigate blows the orbit or the ship being repped loses contact with the logi. reps lost at that point. Lots of ways for this to go sour with no range. Mixed prop mods so unequal burns on prop mod spanks. if the logi is autoorbitting , that patient does a crazy ivan to throw of an enemy that logi is getting shaken off too.

Interesting idea all the same. Frig roams with frig logi an idea I could dig. Make them less suicidal to be more attractive anyway.
Zircon Dasher
#18 - 2011-12-07 22:52:39 UTC
Why do you want to repeat the problems of EAF's?

The only time a friggy version of a logi would be more useful than bringing an actual logi is those few places where only frig sized boats can go.

The niche is too small. All you wind up doing is making more EAFs.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.

Obsidiana
Atrament Inc.
#19 - 2011-12-08 08:25:27 UTC
Before the first release of Eve, and before they came up with gangs (which were before fleets), they had formations. It worked great if all the characters had the same ship and the same skills... which doesn't happen all that often. I think revisiting formations would be worth considering. Something that let T3 ships move together, replacing individual bonuses with a strong roll bonus.

The idea is that short range RR would be fine at these close ranges. Yes, the uniformity would be a bit dull, but also kind of unique to Eve.
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#20 - 2011-12-08 08:59:17 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
...The niche is too small. All you wind up doing is making more EAFs....

The niche is only so small due to logistics naturally focusing on maintaining bigger boats with higher individual impact on a given fight and ISK cost.

AF's are absolutely nasty to have zooming around a battlefield when (done right), hard to kill for bigger boats and can pack a punch. Their only "problem" is that of long-term survivability.
Try it the next time your blob of choice assembles, put together ten AF's or so and have two logistics assigned to them and them only .. more fun than shaking down fat kids for their lunch money and more challenging than evading the cops afterwards!

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