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CSM meets CCP Senior Producer Zulu about your concerns

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Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#281 - 2011-09-11 21:12:57 UTC
Maimakterion wrote:
What are you smoking? Why would a CSM rep need either one of those when their job is to bring their constituent's concerns up to CCP?

...* ...um ...because video games are programmed in real life, not a fictional game universe? How do YOU think games come into being? Real life game design requires real-world programming talent and abstract vision. If you want real world results for a fictional universe, your need some real life skills... pretend internet spaceship skills are not enough.
Maimakterion wrote:
When did you get it in your head that The Mittani is in charge of EVE's developers? At this point I'm going to go with you're making stuff up as you go.

...in charge? Bit of a stretch don't you think... I think you are making up stuff now. I never suggested any such thing. I merely stated he has influence... which he does.
Maimakterion wrote:
If you think Goons are roleplaying, you are beyond help. Please go back to camping your lowsec gate and never post again.

There's roll-playing in terms of Amarr vs Minmatar, which some people do, and there's roll-playing in terms of "I'm in a spaceship... in space... doing stuff..." which is what the rest do. You are roll-playing if you play EvE, one way or another. I think you have spent so much time in your "spaceship" that you can't even see that... thus illustrating the point of my entire argument. Thanks for clarifying things...

Welp... back to my lowsec camp. Pirate

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Saerathus
Vocatio Ad Virtutem
#282 - 2011-09-12 01:57:06 UTC
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
Hello Everyone,

Amidst the recent forum activity about reports of decreased subscriber count, discontent about lack of resources allocated to "Flying In Space" (or, as we know it, Eve Online) and, despite Gridlock and Team BFF's efforts, general stagnation when it comes to fixes and improvements, the CSM just met with CCP's Senor Producer for Eve Online: CCP Zulu.

During that meeting, we discussed the players' concerns with the man who has the ability to resolve them. We cannot share the details of the meeting itself because it is heavily NDA'd, but ways to resolve your concerns have been discussed and a follow-up meeting is planned.

Stay tuned...

Meissa Anunthiel, Vice-Chairman of CSM 6



"Council Representatives will communicate with the voting community through
the topic forums mentioned above, but also with individuals as necessary
through any means they agree upon. Although private communications between
Representatives and voters can be kept confidential, transcripts of all CSM
meetings are considered public property and are to be made public."

http://www.eveonline.com/download/devblog/CSM.pdf
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#283 - 2011-09-12 02:03:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Hammond II
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:


useless do-nothing morons.

useless desperate attention whores.



right on two counts

lol hilmar must be kicking himself for that email by now - if he cares which is 50/50 in my book - Why dont they just NDA the entire staff so if something like that happens again they can find them and legally prosecute them rather than just firing them - or in the case of the previous leaks - not caring

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.
Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#284 - 2011-09-12 02:45:34 UTC
Pod Amarr wrote:



CCP managed to **** off enough people by them self what are you going to do threaten that all goons leave I wish they did.

I actually hope that eve will go down to 13000 player count so CCP wakes up.


I think if the goons left it would O.o

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.
Richard Aiel
The Merchants of War
#285 - 2011-09-12 02:51:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Aiel
Quote:
Wily Mittani answered Hilmar, all untroubled.

"Remember my repute among thy customer base. I have the ear of many; yea even my enemies listen to my counsel. So too the gaming magazines, who hunger ever for the content of discord, give me heed. Bend not, and I shall bring down 'pon you a great storm of rage-quitting. I shall tell stories to the media that will hearten your enemies and make your investors quail. Then shall the very stars of New Eden flicker and go dark, and with them all your ill-starred designs."

"Nay," quoth Hilmar. "If the unfaithful would rage-quit, let them do so. And let not the gates of New Eden strike them 'pon the ass ere they leave. Thus unvexed, I shall have Microtransactions and the storied wealth they bestow. Yea, even unto golden ammunition should I desire it. Then I shall no longer be hostage to those who tithe but a monthly pittance, yet seek to make themselves my master."

At this, Mittani did but smile and turn to leave.

"You have no power or desire to lay New Eden low," unbending Hilmar called after him. "And even didst thou, it is the stage 'pon which your own reputation struts. Turn off New Eden's lights and you likewise stand in darkness. Where, Mittani, would you go, New Eden having fallen?"

The Mittani paused, and turning unto Hilmar spoke thusly:

"There are other worlds than thine. If New Eden falls, I will lead my minions forth and play at World of Tanks."

"Tanks?" cried proud Hilmar, "Tanks?!"

The assembled host bowed and answered him as one.

"You are welcome, Hilmar."


lol how true

Goons really dont NEED this game.
CCP really does NEED this game.
Goons are apparently in control of the only player-to-CCP communication CCP actually cares to recieve.
this seems bad to me

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/buddahcjcc/SOA-3-2.jpg
Flamespar
WarRavens
#286 - 2011-09-12 03:01:58 UTC
One point that is consistently ignored by the players screaming "Waaaah CCP is ignoring EVE for WoD and Dust514" is that CCP is developing core techonologies that will benefit all three games.

EVE may benefit from WoDs combat system, WoD will benefit from EVEs network optimisations, Dust514 might share art assets with EVE.

Yes Incarna didn't deliver on it's promise in it's first iteration, but it will. Hopefully sooner rather than later. I would hate to see the development of this feature that some of us have been waiting for years (and years) to halt.

Personally I think CCP is still commited to their vision of a complete SciFi simulator.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#287 - 2011-09-12 03:14:31 UTC
Saerathus wrote:



"Council Representatives will communicate with the voting community through
the topic forums mentioned above, but also with individuals as necessary
through any means they agree upon. Although private communications between
Representatives and voters can be kept confidential, transcripts of all CSM
meetings are considered public property and are to be made public."

http://www.eveonline.com/download/devblog/CSM.pdf


Sorry, but this wasn't a CSM meeting. There was no transcript. Perhaps you might quote the portion of that document where it talks about communications between the CSM and CCP and the NDA.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Trolls Troll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#288 - 2011-09-12 03:18:50 UTC
Two step wrote:
CSM and CCP and the NDA.



THAT word again.


ThisIsntMyMain
Doomheim
#289 - 2011-09-12 03:23:25 UTC
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
Hello Everyone,

Stuff

Meissa Anunthiel, Vice-Chairman of CSM 6


To get back to the OP, and putting aside most of the tinfoil rubbish and asshat posting by 13 year old kids in this thread ....

Thanks to all the members of the CSM for doing what the CSM is supposed to do and ensuring that player sentiment gets communicated to CCP Senior management. Whatever the end results turn out to be it's clear that the CSM mechanism at least is working here in a way that doesn't happen with any other video game company. Fingers crossed that it gets a result that keeps customers happy and CCP in business.
Vaako Horizon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#290 - 2011-09-12 04:02:58 UTC
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
Vicar2008 wrote:
No offense I like where this is going, but its just another bone being thrown to us without actually anything concrete being said. Check out the last Dev blogs, plenty of words, no real Comming up content with changes/number crunching etc.


It's not a bone being thrown. Meetings like this one, when they reach their conclusion, take the form of a devblog and CSM posts. I believed it important for you to know that discussion is underway to address the problems, even if I can't disclose in what way yet.



This was a bone... instead of this crap you guys should have been silent...
Reason? well, this bone will now make us long for something again which if it ever happens ( as it feels atm not ever ) its gonna be a long long time until we see it.
Vaako Horizon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#291 - 2011-09-12 04:24:45 UTC
CCP Manifest wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
So far we have Meissa, Mittani, Two Step, and a few other CSM delegates (sorry -- can't be bothered to gather all the names) claiming to have had a meeting with one CCP manager, and claiming that good stuff was talked about, and claiming that we'll hear about it, eventually, maybe. 138 posts and 7+ hours later, and not a single CCP person has chimed to confirm even the most basic of facts; like even the meeting occurred, much less that anything substantial was discussed or that anything will be the result of it or even the vaguest of indications when. I predict that none will be forthcoming in the next several days either, seeing as CCP is incapable of staffing for the weekend.

Face it CSM: CCP has absolutely no respect for you, and by extension no respect for the players. They're just trolling you. Quelle surprise

MDD


This is a very fair point. Thanks for bringing it up.

I'd been talking to the CSM about something entirely unrelated a day or two before, but since I already knew what the content of yesterday's dialogue was going to be, I requested to be a part of the meeting as a fly on the wall. CCP Xhagen graciously accepted my request.

Obviously, since I am also under NDA as an employee (and since I'm part of the evil team of the one single guy in public relations that pursues press opportunities) I too cannot reveal the main bulk of the conversation. Sorry dads I am disappoint.

However, for what it's worth, as an EVE player I can say that I am wet-my-pants-silly-happy about where the meeting content is headed. Yes, this was a preliminary meeting, but it was absolutely positively necessarily so. That does put the CSM temporarily in a bit of a tough spot, but eh, they were elected to be in that tough spot and kinda campaigned to be there.

I'll get it out of the way here. This meeting was not about ponies. Sorry guys.

One of my main takeaways from the meeting (and my dealings with them separate from the meeting) is that the CSM will not be distracted from their stated mission. Their tactical use of a mini-PR campaign is a testament to that. Their immediate first responses to stuff Zulu had to say also speaks volumes to their undeterrability. They haven't "called a truce" or been sated.. yet. See Mittani's Red Meat comments in this thread. Their questions were myriad and delivered stalwartly. Also, they haven't been threatened with the NDA wagged in front of their faces. They have stood quite firm in their priorities--and are very much of the mind of many of you that it's going to be "watch what we do" .

They are right in saying that nothing of detailed substance was said during the meeting--however there was apparently enough vague substance to convince them that the next meeting should be promising indeed. Convinced enough to decide to come to you guys and give a progress report, treading dangeous political waters. If the preliminary meeting didn't smell of enough Red Meat, I severely doubt they would be here at all. We didn't try to convince them to speak to you guys.

Hope that addresses some of the meta-comments here about the CSM's behavior/communications. Sorry about the delay in coming here. I had to sleep.




This adds some + to CSM this one time, havent seen them do anything do award anymore but - before.
This also adds + to CCP from a massive amount of - covering a long time.

Instead of the silence we've had keep these coming so that we can see CCP is alive, other then zym who edits everyones posts.
Also, try and actually add some real info every now and then, the lack of info is getting tiresome....
Dalketh
DRRUSSEL
#292 - 2011-09-12 04:29:43 UTC
Vaako Horizon wrote:



This was a bone... instead of this crap you guys should have been silent...
Reason? well, this bone will now make us long for something again which if it ever happens ( as it feels atm not ever ) its gonna be a long long time until we see it.


THIS EXACTLY. CCP messes up - CSM supposedly to the rescue - CSM satisfied with CCP saying/promising blah blah blah... we wait... and nothing.... CSM angry... summits... emergency meetings... CSM say wait they are optimistic... then NOTHING.... CSM gets up in arms... we supposed to pay attention yet again... then CSM pleased... then NOTHING... over and over. Year after year. 'This time will be different'... don't you understand you are wearing us out? If you can't make a difference... quit. If you can... we haven't really seen it and are tired. Mitten's profanity filled speeches and Trebor's damage control not withstanding... we are feeling hopeless imo.... thats what I see. FYI a nullsec boost (since the current CSM so null-sec heavy) isn't going to cut it if that is current thought.
Richard Aiel
The Merchants of War
#293 - 2011-09-12 04:56:51 UTC
Vaako Horizon wrote:


This adds some + to CSM this one time, havent seen them do anything do award anymore but - before.
This also adds + to CCP from a massive amount of - covering a long time.

Instead of the silence we've had keep these coming so that we can see CCP is alive, other then zym who edits everyones posts.
Also, try and actually add some real info every now and then, the lack of info is getting tiresome....


Video of the latest CSM meeting

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/buddahcjcc/SOA-3-2.jpg
Saerathus
Vocatio Ad Virtutem
#294 - 2011-09-12 04:58:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Saerathus
Saerathus wrote:



"Council Representatives will communicate with the voting community through
the topic forums mentioned above, but also with individuals as necessary
through any means they agree upon. Although private communications between
Representatives and voters can be kept confidential, transcripts of all CSM
meetings are considered public property and are to be made public."

http://www.eveonline.com/download/devblog/CSM.pdf


Two step wrote:

Sorry, but this wasn't a CSM meeting.


Meissa Anunthiel wrote:

the CSM just met with CCP's Senor Producer for Eve Online: CCP Zulu.


Meissa Anunthiel wrote:

During that meeting, we discussed the players' concerns with the man who has the ability to resolve them.


Meissa Anunthiel wrote:

We cannot share the details of the meeting itself because it is heavily NDA'd


Because you are too lazy to back up what you say with your own citations..

"CSM representatives and alternates must sign a non-disclosure agreement, as
all volunteers and affiliates are required to since the proximity of their relationship
may expose them to information not intended for public release. Council
representatives and alternates are bound by the terms of that agreement, as all
other participants are."

Has nothing to do with meetings. The document enumerates exactly how many meetings the CSM is supposed to have with CCP each term, how many members of the CSM are required to make a meeting official, having the contents of the meetings determined beforehand.. and so on. Most specifically though is the fact that every CSM-CCP meeting is supposed to have a public transcript. Not notes, not minutes - a transcript. So when someone says "The CSM just met with.." I assume that is a meeting of the CSM.. this isn't a matter of bloody semantics. I don't blame the CSM necessarily for not publishing them because it's obvious that CCP has been putting undue pressure on that whole subject, but don't sit there and say "Sorry, you're wrong." when pointed out that there's a contradiction to the much-touted document that the CSM was founded on.

NDAs are signed not only by you but everyone in the ISD programme (supposedly?) and all third-parties that come into contact with Eve-O. Fair enough. But the CSM should not be having NDA'd meetings outside of its scope. Otherwise, why even bother to pretend that it's a "democratic representation"?
Saerathus
Vocatio Ad Virtutem
#295 - 2011-09-12 05:04:30 UTC
Richard Aiel wrote:

Video of the latest CSM meeting


I fell for this. :(
Richard Aiel
The Merchants of War
#296 - 2011-09-12 05:08:50 UTC
Saerathus wrote:
Richard Aiel wrote:

Video of the latest CSM meeting


I fell for this. :(


I havent seen someone do it for years so bwa ha haaa

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/buddahcjcc/SOA-3-2.jpg
Barricade Dark
#297 - 2011-09-12 08:37:37 UTC
I have to agree with Saerathus on this one, well put by the way. This whole thing just stinks of semantics and cover up. I mean I'm glad to see they are actually having meetings and making some kind of headway with CCP. I always figuired whatever the result would be it definitly would be rolled out slowly over the course of months, while in the meantime CCP would continue with whatever plan they have for the immediate future. I don't see them suggesting that they are suddenly going to drop what they are doing as a company and turn around in response to the CSM and their meeting and start working on the game in the direction the CSM and community would like to see. But rather it would be a statement which basically amounts to "we are going to start looking at this".. which is exactly all that has happened. A commitment to "look at it".

Hardly comferting and certainly not sufficient but at least its an acknolwedgment that their is a problem.

I think the response from CCP should be considerably stronger. It should be a commitment to "immediatly restructure the course of Eve Online to meet the demands of the community".. Period. Anything short of that is a weak response and will (and IS) seen as a weak response.

It will be interesting to see how quickly and how deep they will go into the proposed issues, at this point it doesn't really matter what they attack first as far as FIS is concerned, you could throw darts at a board with the hundreds of problems and just work from their. It would be great if they just started on something.. anything.. at this point. I hope CCP realizes that their next patch better include some actual results from these meetings... actual implemented action.
Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
#298 - 2011-09-12 08:52:12 UTC
Barricade Dark wrote:
I have to agree with Saerathus on this one, well put by the way. This whole thing just stinks of semantics and cover up. I mean I'm glad to see they are actually having meetings and making some kind of headway with CCP. I always figuired whatever the result would be it definitly would be rolled out slowly over the course of months, while in the meantime CCP would continue with whatever plan they have for the immediate future. I don't see them suggesting that they are suddenly going to drop what they are doing as a company and turn around in response to the CSM and their meeting and start working on the game in the direction the CSM and community would like to see. But rather it would be a statement which basically amounts to "we are going to start looking at this".. which is exactly all that has happened. A commitment to "look at it".

Hardly comferting and certainly not sufficient but at least its an acknolwedgment that their is a problem.

I think the response from CCP should be considerably stronger. It should be a commitment to "immediatly restructure the course of Eve Online to meet the demands of the community".. Period. Anything short of that is a weak response and will (and IS) seen as a weak response.

It will be interesting to see how quickly and how deep they will go into the proposed issues, at this point it doesn't really matter what they attack first as far as FIS is concerned, you could throw darts at a board with the hundreds of problems and just work from their. It would be great if they just started on something.. anything.. at this point. I hope CCP realizes that their next patch better include some actual results from these meetings... actual implemented action.


I'm informing you of a process in place, not of CCP saying "we'll look at it somewhere down the line". One process that should generate progress or at least an answer because they're looking at it now...

Before you decry the results of that process to be meaningless, why don't you wait for the result to come out?

Whether that process produces the necessary outcome or not, I'll be posting here again to tell you what came of it anyway. The good thing is that there's *something* going on.

As soon as there's developments, there will be an update. In the meantime I'm reading this thread and others to make sure I get your collective opinion to relay it to CCP for the next meeting.

Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7
Flamespar
WarRavens
#299 - 2011-09-12 09:19:04 UTC
After listening to all the raging on these forums I am of the opinion that what Hilmar should have said in his email was

"We will watch what the silent majority does rather than listen to the vocal minority."
Barricade Dark
#300 - 2011-09-12 09:39:55 UTC
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
Barricade Dark wrote:
I have to agree with Saerathus on this one, well put by the way. This whole thing just stinks of semantics and cover up. I mean I'm glad to see they are actually having meetings and making some kind of headway with CCP. I always figuired whatever the result would be it definitly would be rolled out slowly over the course of months, while in the meantime CCP would continue with whatever plan they have for the immediate future. I don't see them suggesting that they are suddenly going to drop what they are doing as a company and turn around in response to the CSM and their meeting and start working on the game in the direction the CSM and community would like to see. But rather it would be a statement which basically amounts to "we are going to start looking at this".. which is exactly all that has happened. A commitment to "look at it".

Hardly comferting and certainly not sufficient but at least its an acknolwedgment that their is a problem.

I think the response from CCP should be considerably stronger. It should be a commitment to "immediatly restructure the course of Eve Online to meet the demands of the community".. Period. Anything short of that is a weak response and will (and IS) seen as a weak response.

It will be interesting to see how quickly and how deep they will go into the proposed issues, at this point it doesn't really matter what they attack first as far as FIS is concerned, you could throw darts at a board with the hundreds of problems and just work from their. It would be great if they just started on something.. anything.. at this point. I hope CCP realizes that their next patch better include some actual results from these meetings... actual implemented action.


I'm informing you of a process in place, not of CCP saying "we'll look at it somewhere down the line". One process that should generate progress or at least an answer because they're looking at it now...

Before you decry the results of that process to be meaningless, why don't you wait for the result to come out?

Whether that process produces the necessary outcome or not, I'll be posting here again to tell you what came of it anyway. The good thing is that there's *something* going on.

As soon as there's developments, there will be an update. In the meantime I'm reading this thread and others to make sure I get your collective opinion to relay it to CCP for the next meeting.




Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

It would be one thing if CCP had a reputation worthy of our faith, but they don't, so while I don't decree that the processes is meaningless, I do decree that I have no faith in the process because that is the reputation that CCP has created for themselves. You are right, at this moment nothing has happened but conversations, but given that we have had many meaningless conversations with CCP in the past that resulted in no action at all, how else do you expect the community to react?