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Restrict NPC Corporation Posting Abilities.

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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#641 - 2014-06-10 15:58:57 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:

what if they made the ban on the account and not the character? (i think my main got a temp ban once but i could still post with my alts) that and make it so trial accounts cant post on GD?

I think that with tough penilties for breaking rules would work.

that way you are not resticting people who legit dont want to join a corp but still want to participate in GD.


That was part of a suggestion that came up earlier in the thread. My own take on it was, in addition to what I've already suggested in the OP, applying any forum punishment account wide, allowing ISD to 24hr gag people, and an evidence recording system that after so many 24hr gags it automatically refers it to a CCP community manager for review. It keeps the ISDs responsibility pretty much the same while giving them more tools to deal with problems yet not a huge amount of power where people start freaking out because freedoms.

NPC troll alts are a thing and this is what I feel the least intrusive and best option to deal with them. The whole point is to increase the quality of the forums, removing NPC troll alts is one part of the solution to do that.


well with that explained i can support

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#642 - 2014-06-10 16:30:09 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Except it wasn't, the guy was happy to ignore a point that destroyed his argument and has continued to do nothing but bring up the same things that have already been answered/defeated. You should do yourself a favor and read the thread.

Except the only thing which has been destroyed is your credibility as a disputant. The guy's argument, if you did read carefully, was was that no matter how cheap the solution is, it's worthless if it's not working as intended. After all, the best money saving and actually 100% sure way of stopping trolls would be shutting down the forum, wouldn't it? And the only form of answering/defeating this and other concerns which you had offered was accusation of raging, of goon conspiracy, and other ad hominems and fallacies. Don't take my word on it, go read your own posts, I'll wait.

Speaking of fallacies, let's take on two biggest ones:

Quote:
E: All of you posting about play style please remember faceless NPC alt troll is not a play style its a forum rule/EULA/TOS violation.

Well said, except the act of trolling is in rule/EULA/TOS violation no matter whether you're faceless NPC alt, member of small corp or member of big power bloc. And conversely, as long as you don't troll (nor break other rules) you're free to post no matter whether you're faceless NPC alt, member of a small corp or member of big power bloc.

Your wording is quite crude attempt at manipulation, to impose an impression that being NPC alt equals trolling.

Quote:
(repeated many times, not verbatim but to the same meaning:) CAOD is evidence it works

The only evidence the CAOD is of is that it works for CAOD. And even then you don't know why it's working (unless you've got confessions of those trolls). That it would work anywhere else you don't know too nor you have any proof of. Neither you're extrapolating, contrary to your earlier claims. To extrapolate you need a function whose values you know for some input set and then you can estimate what values it may take for inputs outside of this known set. Here not only such function is not defined (what are inputs? what is a 'value' of it?) but also this data set consist of exactly one item.

For the same reason you can't make a statistical argument. But if you think about it, first consult with your math teacher and tell us what happened then.

The only thing you can do is to guess and in this regard your opinion and your arguments are as good as mine. The only difference being you choose to ignore mine because I happened not to agree with you.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#643 - 2014-06-10 16:58:32 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
hmskrecik wrote:

Except the only thing which has been destroyed is your credibility as a disputant. The guy's argument, if you did read carefully, was was that no matter how cheap the solution is, it's worthless if it's not working as intended. After all, the best money saving and actually 100% sure way of stopping trolls would be shutting down the forum, wouldn't it? And the only form of answering/defeating this and other concerns which you had offered was accusation of raging, of goon conspiracy, and other ad hominems and fallacies. Don't take my word on it, go read your own posts, I'll wait.

Speaking of fallacies, let's take on two biggest ones:

Well said, except the act of trolling is in rule/EULA/TOS violation no matter whether you're faceless NPC alt, member of small corp or member of big power bloc. And conversely, as long as you don't troll (nor break other rules) you're free to post no matter whether you're faceless NPC alt, member of a small corp or member of big power bloc.

Your wording is quite crude attempt at manipulation, to impose an impression that being NPC alt equals trolling.

The only evidence the CAOD is of is that it works for CAOD. And even then you don't know why it's working (unless you've got confessions of those trolls). That it would work anywhere else you don't know too nor you have any proof of. Neither you're extrapolating, contrary to your earlier claims. To extrapolate you need a function whose values you know for some input set and then you can estimate what values it may take for inputs outside of this known set. Here not only such function is not defined (what are inputs? what is a 'value' of it?) but also this data set consist of exactly one item.

For the same reason you can't make a statistical argument. But if you think about it, first consult with your math teacher and tell us what happened then.

The only thing you can do is to guess and in this regard your opinion and your arguments are as good as mine. The only difference being you choose to ignore mine because I happened not to agree with you.


Your broken record garbage has already been answered earlier in the thread I'm not going to keep indulging you bring up a salient point if you want anything different than this sort of response. Your incessant need to win an argument over the internet with people you don't know and won't meet is interfering with discussion of my suggestion.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#644 - 2014-06-10 17:32:12 UTC
The Goon Propaganda Machine must really be rusting out, now that they want to silence people.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Ceawlin Cobon-Han
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#645 - 2014-06-14 07:32:09 UTC
Silencing NPC troll alts in this fashion treats all NPC-based players as trolls, when that is not the case. As I'm against people suffering for a situation over which they have no control I'm still against this idea. Case-by-case implementation is the only way of doing this. Good luck with that.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#646 - 2014-06-14 14:15:49 UTC
Ceawlin Cobon-Han wrote:
Silencing NPC troll alts in this fashion treats all NPC-based players as trolls, when that is not the case. As I'm against people suffering for a situation over which they have no control I'm still against this idea. Case-by-case implementation is the only way of doing this. Good luck with that.


Yes this is the unfortunate downside of this necessary suggestion some non-trolls will be snagged by it. I'm sure that was a consideration back pre-CAOD rules as well but, it was found to be worth it much like it would be should it be extended to the rest of the forums.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Ceawlin Cobon-Han
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#647 - 2014-06-15 09:41:22 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Ceawlin Cobon-Han wrote:
Silencing NPC troll alts in this fashion treats all NPC-based players as trolls, when that is not the case. As I'm against people suffering for a situation over which they have no control I'm still against this idea. Case-by-case implementation is the only way of doing this. Good luck with that.


Yes this is the unfortunate downside of this necessary suggestion some non-trolls will be snagged by it. I'm sure that was a consideration back pre-CAOD rules as well but, it was found to be worth it much like it would be should it be extended to the rest of the forums.

Your assertion that it's "necessary" is debatable; which is what we're doing now. My final word is: I will never be for this, for the reason a gave above.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#648 - 2014-06-15 14:35:48 UTC
Ceawlin Cobon-Han wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Ceawlin Cobon-Han wrote:
Silencing NPC troll alts in this fashion treats all NPC-based players as trolls, when that is not the case. As I'm against people suffering for a situation over which they have no control I'm still against this idea. Case-by-case implementation is the only way of doing this. Good luck with that.


Yes this is the unfortunate downside of this necessary suggestion some non-trolls will be snagged by it. I'm sure that was a consideration back pre-CAOD rules as well but, it was found to be worth it much like it would be should it be extended to the rest of the forums.

Your assertion that it's "necessary" is debatable; which is what we're doing now. My final word is: I will never be for this, for the reason a gave above.


I understand your apprehension but, CCP with their CAOD restrictions has tacitly acknowledged that npc alts are a disruptive force on the forums and were degrading the quality of that particular subforum. They're degrading other parts of the forums as well hence the change. My suggestion and yours are not mutually exclusive, I acknowledge in the OP that it is only part of the solution.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#649 - 2014-06-15 14:38:48 UTC
Simple solution...ignore posts from npc alts if you don't like them. Don't quote them or respond to them.
Solecist Project
#650 - 2014-06-20 01:14:06 UTC
I'm in NPC corp, but I'm not an NPC forum alt ...

... and I'm definitely not face-, or bodyless ;) ...

... I approve of this product, service or proposal!


Death to hating npc forum alt shitposters!

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#651 - 2014-06-20 01:58:13 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Simple solution...ignore posts from npc alts if you don't like them. Don't quote them or respond to them.

Ditto
Signed: proud NPC corp alt forum poster that would be targeted by the OP views against freedom of expression, in a non trolling way Big smile

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#652 - 2014-06-20 02:08:15 UTC
Saisin wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Simple solution...ignore posts from npc alts if you don't like them. Don't quote them or respond to them.

Ditto
Signed: proud NPC corp alt forum poster that would be targeted by the OP views against freedom of expression, in a non trolling way Big smile


Private property not government property so you have no more rights than you are afforded in CCP's legal documentation. This is even in the OP. You personally might not be a problem but, for everyone of you there are 100 others who are problems that this suggestion will help solve.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#653 - 2014-06-20 02:27:19 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
You personally might not be a problem but, for everyone of you there are 100 others who are problems that this suggestion will help solve.

I feel so.... Collaterally damaged Sad... even if your judgment is not fully made on my posts qualities...

Here is a proposition: allow every forum user to "mark" other forum users when they post something by a simple button push in the left column where users name and info appears.
Once marked, the forum will auto hide to you threads started by marked users, posts done by marked users (you would still see that someone trolling in your eyes has posted but would not see the post until actively clicking on it to read it), and any quote done of that user would be also not visible unless you actively click on it if by any chance you still had an interest to check it out.

This way you would be able to build your own filters to see the postings you want, while leaving everyone chose to do as they wish...

Does that sounds fair?

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#654 - 2014-06-20 03:55:12 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Saisin wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Simple solution...ignore posts from npc alts if you don't like them. Don't quote them or respond to them.

Ditto
Signed: proud NPC corp alt forum poster that would be targeted by the OP views against freedom of expression, in a non trolling way Big smile


Private property not government property so you have no more rights than you are afforded in CCP's legal documentation. This is even in the OP. You personally might not be a problem but, for everyone of you there are 100 others who are problems that this suggestion will help solve.

"its a privilege not a right!" isn't an argument for removing a privilege.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#655 - 2014-06-20 04:18:47 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Saisin wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Simple solution...ignore posts from npc alts if you don't like them. Don't quote them or respond to them.

Ditto
Signed: proud NPC corp alt forum poster that would be targeted by the OP views against freedom of expression, in a non trolling way Big smile


Private property not government property so you have no more rights than you are afforded in CCP's legal documentation. This is even in the OP. You personally might not be a problem but, for everyone of you there are 100 others who are problems that this suggestion will help solve.

"its a privilege not a right!" isn't an argument for removing a privilege.


No but the quality destroying behavior of the NPC alts is also you cannot remove what was never there in the first place.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#656 - 2014-06-20 04:22:10 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Saisin wrote:

I feel so.... Collaterally damaged Sad... even if your judgment is not fully made on my posts qualities...

Here is a proposition: allow every forum user to "mark" other forum users when they post something by a simple button push in the left column where users name and info appears.
Once marked, the forum will auto hide to you threads started by marked users, posts done by marked users (you would still see that someone trolling in your eyes has posted but would not see the post until actively clicking on it to read it), and any quote done of that user would be also not visible unless you actively click on it if by any chance you still had an interest to check it out.

This way you would be able to build your own filters to see the postings you want, while leaving everyone chose to do as they wish...

Does that sounds fair?


Yeah collateral damage is one of the cons of the suggestion which was considered when CAOD was put in place and deemed acceptable. I haven't seen a compelling argument that it does more harm than good as of yet so I stand by my primary suggestion. Thankfully the :effort: wall is not too high so if you really want to post you have your method to get around it. Your addition looks similar to what Malcanis proposed, ignore by corp and standings to allow the ones you don't mind through.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#657 - 2014-06-20 06:18:33 UTC
A lot of babies are going to get thrown out with that bathwater.

Being in an npc corp CAN be a playstyle, it is just not yours. Being in a 1 or 5 man corp, same thing. It is a choice that player made. While I fully support your right to not listen by clicking the little triangle next to my name and saying Block. I do not think this also gives us the right to block every new player, every forum alt, every damn person who decides to play a more personal game from also having a voice, such as it is.

CAOD made snese because to be talking about corps and alliances it kind of made sense to have to be in one. But would you say the same goes for 'Out of Pod'? How about Sisi feedback? How will you choose who has a right to speak and where?

no. not listening is fine. silencing preemptively is not.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#658 - 2014-06-20 07:15:13 UTC
I support this idea, not because I don't want people in here trolling. I do. I just want to be able to war dec anyone I find irritating. If that means no npc corp posting and people have to start their own little troll corps, that's fine. War dec on the off chance they ever undock in that alt.

Alternately, set all npc corps to permanent war with each other. But that's another topic.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Maz Ngomo
#659 - 2014-06-20 07:28:10 UTC
Contrary to popular belief, the forums aren't actually part of the game EVE, they are an out of game resource and as such shouldn't be subject to the in-game rules or mentality. Blocking NPC corp characters from the forums would restrict them from asking legitimate questions or replying to issues others have been having that they might have a solution to. The idea that all NPC corp posters are trolls is a fallacy on par with the idea that all miners are bots.

People also need to take into account that a lot of us can't post with our mains due to being forbidden from posting on the forums when we join a corp or alliance. Many organisations have official public relations/diplomatic representatives who are the only ones entitled to speak for said organisation in the media. Some people think this is overly harsh, but to be honest it solves the organisation a lot of headaches and backlashes when people are drunk or stupid and log in with an attitude.

Personally I'd like to see a harsher system of punishment due to rules infringements on the forums applied by the moderators themselves. Maybe a 3-strike system that results in a posting ban for 3 months (or even permanently in severe cases). Not original admittedly, but it seems more fair to me than what is being suggested.
Tracy Smith
Doomheim
#660 - 2014-06-20 07:30:08 UTC
The solo PVE players outnumber the rest of the community by 4 to 1. I don't have the info on the proportion of those players who remain in their NPC corps but I'm going to assume it's the majority, or at least a significant minority. I hope CCP isn't dumb enough to deny access to their forums to such a large proportion of their customers.