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[Proposal] POS Reinforcement Early Exit, Timer Replacement

Author
princess minervia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-06-16 08:02:40 UTC
OK Folks, anyone who has had a POS thrown into reinforced knows that they instantly become a slave to the reinforcement timer. How many times have you tried to get your corp mates up at 3am to start the logistics needed to get your POS shields back up to 50% so you can actually do something with it again?

Proposal 1: EARLY EXIT. There is really no reason whatsoever that the person who puts POS fuel in the reactor, should not also be able to REMOVE THE UNBURNED STRONTIUM from the Strontium Bay, which means that the POS exits reinforced mode at the next 1 Hour fuel inject cycle. This allows the defending corp the option to exit reinforced mode early and start the logistics at a time of their own choosing instead of being a slave to a fixed public timer that is screaming out "Come Back and Kill Me in 1 Day and 16 Hours".
I mean really folks - if CCP is going to give a time option on when to exit reinforced mode for the owner of a POCO - the owners of a POS deserve the same consideration for their hard spent ISK. This allows the defenders to start the logistics and then work on their POS when their corp is online instead of trying to get everybody up at some godawful hour. The attackers, if they are watching (and who have the responsibility to watch since they are the ones BESIEGING the place) can always show up in a huge fleet and go to work on the POS as normal if they are so inclined.


Proposal 2: REINFORCED TIMER. Lets discuss the fixed public timer for a moment. Is there really a reason why my POS is broadcasting to the universe the exact minutes and seconds remaining until it runs out of strontium? You would think that "exactly how long we can maintain the emergency defense shield" would be a carefully guarded military secret. I am not saying that the attackers should not have some indication, but a minute and second timer is ridiculous. I don't have that precision fueling the POS, so why should an attacker have that precision when trying to bash it?
I suggest that that exact minute and second timer be replaced by a percentage power indicator - start off at "100% Reinforced" and drop by 5% increments as the strontium fuel bay is consumed. Attackers can still figure out when to come back if they watch, and when the thing gets down to "10% Reinforced" you know you are in that last 4 Hours of that 41 Hour Reinforced Timer on a Medium POS and can act accordingly. If you do 5% increments then the exit can be timed to a two hour window, same as a POCO.


Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2014-06-16 10:36:22 UTC
So, basically, you didn't time your POS right, so now you want CCP to make it virtually impossible to kill the things?
princess minervia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-06-16 18:01:47 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
So, basically, you didn't time your POS right, so now you want CCP to make it virtually impossible to kill the things?


No - I did not time it wrong, I am just damn tired of getting up at 3am to jerk around with this.

With all the tools available (watch lists, alts in system, etc.) do you really think the Attacker won't know what you are doing?
The only benefit the defender gets is to actually have his corp online when the POS comes out of reinforced. Allowing the selection of reinforced exit on POCOs sure has not made them "indestructible".

This becomes even more critical with the POS changes coming in Crius.

CCP - Do you really expect people to lay out Billions of ISK on all those arrays and a POS just to watch it get popped by POS looters 5 time zones ahead who will be there at 8am while your corp mates are asleep at 3am??

Good luck with that.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2014-06-16 20:23:35 UTC
You can already time your POS to come out when you want it to. Being able to push a button, have it come out and rep it up before the guys attempting to take it down can scramble a fleet to stop you is not the same at all. Your idea gives the defender every advantage, and hell, ensures no-one is going to take an R64 from a coalition ever again.

(before you say that never happens, go ask mordus angels, black legion and the guys who live in NPC fountain/delve what they get up to.)

Not only that, but it gives CSAAs a truly stupendous buff, making them a hell of a lot harder to kill and thus making supercap production even easier.
princess minervia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5 - 2014-06-17 02:02:51 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
You can already time your POS to come out when you want it to. Being able to push a button, have it come out and rep it up before the guys attempting to take it down can scramble a fleet to stop you is not the same at all. Your idea gives the defender every advantage, and hell, ensures no-one is going to take an R64 from a coalition ever again.

(before you say that never happens, go ask mordus angels, black legion and the guys who live in NPC fountain/delve what they get up to.)

Not only that, but it gives CSAAs a truly stupendous buff, making them a hell of a lot harder to kill and thus making supercap production even easier.


No, what you can do is take a GUESS and put in an odd amount of Strontium in the bay and hope that you miss the attackers peak time when it comes out of reinforced - not really the same thing at all. Being able to remove strontium from a tower in reinforced is not all that different except that you are guaranteed to be able to pick your peak time within an hour or two.

Again - you take the POS out of reinforced, the defender then has to rep it - which is not done at the push of a button. Yes, the buff is to the defender but it is a NEEDED buff, and will not stop a determined foe who can keep coming back to put it in reinforced again, camp the system, post cloaked scouts, etc.




Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#6 - 2014-06-17 12:43:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
princess minervia wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
You can already time your POS to come out when you want it to. Being able to push a button, have it come out and rep it up before the guys attempting to take it down can scramble a fleet to stop you is not the same at all. Your idea gives the defender every advantage, and hell, ensures no-one is going to take an R64 from a coalition ever again.

(before you say that never happens, go ask mordus angels, black legion and the guys who live in NPC fountain/delve what they get up to.)

Not only that, but it gives CSAAs a truly stupendous buff, making them a hell of a lot harder to kill and thus making supercap production even easier.


No, what you can do is take a GUESS and put in an odd amount of Strontium in the bay and hope that you miss the attackers peak time when it comes out of reinforced - not really the same thing at all. Being able to remove strontium from a tower in reinforced is not all that different except that you are guaranteed to be able to pick your peak time within an hour or two.

Again - you take the POS out of reinforced, the defender then has to rep it - which is not done at the push of a button. Yes, the buff is to the defender but it is a NEEDED buff, and will not stop a determined foe who can keep coming back to put it in reinforced again, camp the system, post cloaked scouts, etc.



Op, do you not understand the advantages your proposal gives to defenders?

It takes 6 Chimera's ONE 5-minute triage cycle to repair a POS. That is 10 minutes for 3 carriers, which isn't all that hard to come by. I point this out to show you that repairing a POS can be done within minutes of a POS exiting RF.

Now, you might wonder why a big alliance ever loses POS's then, especially those with supercapitals building. A 100b isk titan is certainly worth enough to sacrifice half a dozen carriers! The only reason these POS's are destroyed is because the attackers can reach the field first, and prevent the carriers from repping the tower.

With your proposal, the attackers no longer know when the tower exits. This means they have to monitor the tower for the next 40 hours and instantly form a fleet to stop someone ninja-repping it. When we are talking alliances and coalitions with 20k members each, the only balanced manner for POS defense to work is for the defenders to "set the RF exit time", and for the attackers to be told when that RF time is, allowing both fleets the opportunity dominate at the tower.

If you find tuning the POS RF timer by controlling the amount of stront in the tower is inadequate, a much more logical and balanced approach is request CCP alter POS RF mechanics to mimic POCO or Station RF timers: With those structures, you get to designate an "exit window" like 0100-0300, and the structure will exit RF around or during that time window. There will still be a countdown, and everyone and their mother can show up at the publicly broadcasted exit time, you just have to micro-manage the POS less to get your desired exit time.
Auric Megastryke
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-06-20 00:24:15 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
princess minervia wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
You can already time your POS to come out when you want it to. Being able to push a button, have it come out and rep it up before the guys attempting to take it down can scramble a fleet to stop you is not the same at all. Your idea gives the defender every advantage, and hell, ensures no-one is going to take an R64 from a coalition ever again.

(before you say that never happens, go ask mordus angels, black legion and the guys who live in NPC fountain/delve what they get up to.)

Not only that, but it gives CSAAs a truly stupendous buff, making them a hell of a lot harder to kill and thus making supercap production even easier.


No, what you can do is take a GUESS and put in an odd amount of Strontium in the bay and hope that you miss the attackers peak time when it comes out of reinforced - not really the same thing at all. Being able to remove strontium from a tower in reinforced is not all that different except that you are guaranteed to be able to pick your peak time within an hour or two.

Again - you take the POS out of reinforced, the defender then has to rep it - which is not done at the push of a button. Yes, the buff is to the defender but it is a NEEDED buff, and will not stop a determined foe who can keep coming back to put it in reinforced again, camp the system, post cloaked scouts, etc.



Op, do you not understand the advantages your proposal gives to defenders?

It takes 6 Chimera's ONE 5-minute triage cycle to repair a POS. That is 10 minutes for 3 carriers, which isn't all that hard to come by. I point this out to show you that repairing a POS can be done within minutes of a POS exiting RF.

Now, you might wonder why a big alliance ever loses POS's then, especially those with supercapitals building. A 100b isk titan is certainly worth enough to sacrifice half a dozen carriers! The only reason these POS's are destroyed is because the attackers can reach the field first, and prevent the carriers from repping the tower.

With your proposal, the attackers no longer know when the tower exits. This means they have to monitor the tower for the next 40 hours and instantly form a fleet to stop someone ninja-repping it. When we are talking alliances and coalitions with 20k members each, the only balanced manner for POS defense to work is for the defenders to "set the RF exit time", and for the attackers to be told when that RF time is, allowing both fleets the opportunity dominate at the tower.

If you find tuning the POS RF timer by controlling the amount of stront in the tower is inadequate, a much more logical and balanced approach is request CCP alter POS RF mechanics to mimic POCO or Station RF timers: With those structures, you get to designate an "exit window" like 0100-0300, and the structure will exit RF around or during that time window. There will still be a countdown, and everyone and their mother can show up at the publicly broadcasted exit time, you just have to micro-manage the POS less to get your desired exit time.


DAMN - THAT IS A FAST POS REP! Too bad it is not available in HISEC, where a POS rep typically takes us all damn day with Basilisks. Maybe that is why hisec is littered with the abandoned small and medium towers of the small 5-10 man corps.

OK - now I understand that big objection from Nullsec - with a 10-minute rep, nobody would ever lose a POS.

This is definitely needed in Hisec tho - the exit window approach would be better than nothing. The hi-sec war dec pos bash for profit business is doing quite well and running out all the small corps with POSes. Even with this approach, I think we are going to need some kind of hi-sec POS shield repper that is a serious cut above the old Basilisk - I'll have to do the math as to how much POS you can rep in a 2 hour window using hisec equipment only.

Would the "exit window" approach radically change nullsec / lowsec? Would the change be bad??
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-06-20 01:18:52 UTC
Auric Megastryke wrote:
Would the "exit window" approach radically change nullsec / lowsec? Would the change be bad??


Yes. Towers would never die.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

princess minervia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-06-20 02:08:31 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Auric Megastryke wrote:
Would the "exit window" approach radically change nullsec / lowsec? Would the change be bad??


Yes. Towers would never die.


I wouldn't say that if both the Attacker and Defender know when it comes out of reinforced. It will make the battle harder as you are coming in on the defender with his guard up this time, but aren't we all interested in having those huge epic big-fleet battles? I thought that was the reason you folks all spent all that time building capitals and supercapitals - so that you could use them to blow up the other guys capitals and supercapitals.

Giving us an exit window for POSes reinforced in Hisec is the LEAST they could do - if it is good enough for a stinking POCO it is good enough for a $2B ISK Dread Guristas POS.