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Boost for new players - 900k SP on first char at start
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Ko Kury Naki
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2014-06-19 17:00:18 UTC
Hi,

I've played EvE since 2011 on 2 accounts.

On this fresh account as a rather veteran player, knowing what I could do and how enjoyable the game becomes after passing some skill level I did some observation how frustrating that game is before reaching some point.

Problem I see is that a new char starts with to low SP. It's not allowing for anything especially for any Trial Account owner it doesn't allow to feel what that game can be and how fascinating it is.

Instead a new player gets (false to some point) impression that it's a prison for newbies.
With 56k SP you feel that you are a "bhanta poodo". Anything you would like try is beyond your reach.

1. You cannot jump and do any missions, you must waste couple of days to train skills which should be BASIC PvE skillset.

2. You cannot do any PvP - you have no tank and no gank - nothing to support that activity.

3. You cannot perform any mining operation - you cannot pilot necessary BASIC MINING ship, nor use a basic mining equipment.

4. You cannot try any industrial activity, nor PI, nor BASIC PRODUCTION, simply again - you don't have a BASIC INDUSTRIAL skills.

What I propose is:
- to raise starting SP pool of the new characters to 900k (first clone filled)
- a new character starts "wiped out" - without any SP allocated to skills
- to support new players a "skill profiles" can be created so a rookie can create a character that be optimal to what he want to try,
that could be something like old "certificate system". As it covers first 900k SP not much work is necessary to make it perfect.


I think that as a result of that change more new players will stay with the game - they will enjoy it since their first minutes.

Cheers,
UG.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2014-06-19 17:06:30 UTC
And how do you deal with gank ready throwaway trial toons?

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Ko Kury Naki
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2014-06-19 17:23:42 UTC
Basic destroyer fit for ganker now is achievable in around 8 hours.

I.e.:

[Catalyst, ganker]

8x Limited Light Neutron Blaster I

Fleeting Progressive Warp Scrambler I

3x Insulated Stabilizer Array I

104x Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S


Requires:

Gallente frigate 3 (7h 19m 3s)
Propulsion jamming 1 (25m)
Weapon upgrades 1 (16m 40s)
Gallente destroyer (16m 40s)

So I don't share your concerns about easier ganking.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#4 - 2014-06-19 17:27:05 UTC
You have Mining III on a new char. So you can use your Noob ship with proper T1 miners and T1 MLUs and mine away. You even have your racial frigate skill at II to fly something else than a Noob ship. You also have your racial preferred small weapon system's skill at II, so you can pew pew.

Industry I is missing, granted.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Iain Cariaba
#5 - 2014-06-19 17:34:12 UTC
The problem isn't a lack of skills. The problem is a lack of imagination on how to use the skills you've already got.

Oh, as this is a repetitive thread.... InB4Lock. Twisted
Ko Kury Naki
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2014-06-19 17:51:30 UTC
To perform some PvE pew pew in a frigate like that:

[Punisher, VERY ROOKIE FRIENDLY]

3x Small Focused Anode Particle Stream I (Multifrequency S)

X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Limited 1MN Afterburner I

Small Automated Carapace Restoration
F85 Peripheral Damage System I
2x 'Refuge' Adaptive Nano Plating I


You need 4 additional skills on new char and a knowledge that exactle these skills you need:
- Propulsion jamming 1 - for web
- Armor repair systems 1 - obvious - for Armor repair module
- Afterburner 1 - self explaining
- Hull upgrades - for Damage Controll mod and ANP mods (very basic armor tank for frigates - in general)

Regarding mining in a noob ship or anything other than a Venture - thats the point - to not bore to death a new player.
Anything bellow specialized mining frigate is inefficient like hell.
Having mining skill at lvl 2 a rookie can mine 55m3 per minute while in a Venture with basic levels of skills it became
over 210m3 per minute.
Do not forget about ore hold - 5000m3 in a Venture and a few hundreds max in a frigate.

So for a Venture a potential player, a Trial Account user needs:


Mining III
Mining Upgrades I
Afterburner I
Shield Operation I
Mining Frigate I
Drones I
Drones II
Drones III
Light Drone Operation I

7 unique skills, 9 skill levels; Total time: 9 hours, 21 minutes, 10 seconds

plus another 9 hours to get Mining Frigate III

I think that is not a newbie friendly in any way ...

It could be 10 or 5 years ago but not now.
Saelem Black
Cog Banking
#7 - 2014-06-19 17:56:17 UTC
Eh, 900k seems a bit high, though I'm not against the idea. I'd just like to see them bring back the new player bonus for the first two weeks, or something similar. A wise character could get in the 600k ballpark after that time.
Ko Kury Naki
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2014-06-19 17:57:06 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
The problem isn't a lack of skills. The problem is a lack of imagination on how to use the skills you've already got.

Oh, as this is a repetitive thread.... InB4Lock. Twisted


So you think that experienced player like me who started in 2011, drives 2 chars, who lived in LS and WH, performed PVP and PVE and some industry, mining and PI don't have imagination how to use skills ?

No dude, that player has big enough imagination to notice something wrong and say - hey, fix that problem please.
We discuss here not a problem that some newbies will be able to fly a shiny ships.
We talk here about increasing player base for the sake of all of us.

Cheers,
Ko Kury Naki
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2014-06-19 18:06:40 UTC
Saelem Black wrote:
Eh, 900k seems a bit high, though I'm not against the idea. I'd just like to see them bring back the new player bonus for the first two weeks, or something similar. A wise character could get in the 600k ballpark after that time.


600k could be enough, how much thats a technical detail. But something must be d
Just imagine if you invite a friend to EvE - can you advice him how to spend X SP to have fun for both of you.
Him trying the game first time with your help and for you helping a newbie to discover great world ...

If you come in any ship you can fly now to help him in his duties - you will intimidate and demotivate him
as now with 55k starting SP he would be unable to do anything near your capabilities.
RavenTesio
Liandri Corporation
#10 - 2014-06-19 18:11:09 UTC
New Characters used to start with quite a bit of usable skills initially, but the thing was while that was nice - it did pigeon hole players a bit because most of the skills were purely focused on the race you chose.

That said Training was a damn sight slower back then too, as you had the Learning Skills... now you get that boost out of the gate with an implant that increases that even further; that is actually quite cheap even if you don't use it yourself.

What I think tends to be a deterrent for "New" players not just Alts... is there is very little in the way of explanation or experience that they get to really understand the scope of available things you can do in the game. I'm not talking about more tutorials, god no - the ones we have at the moment are frankly god awful and there is a much better way that information could be fed to the player without the hand holding before throwing them off the ledge hoping they'll learn to fly before they go splat and quit.

Things like Scanning though, the tutorial teaches scanning but not WHY you would want to use it.
It has the most gross bullet points for Industry, but it never explains that unlike other MMOs where crafting usually is done simply because you want something cool; the majority of what is available for purchase on the market is almost 100% player crafted... actually I don't recall the tutorial even mentioning the market let alone how the hell it works.

Wormholes again, simply not mentions. Hacking Ghost Sites, Anomalies, basic Fitting Tips, etc...
None of that is information available to the player from the start, even Skill Queue management is glossed over; assuming the player will naturally pick it up - and sure some do, but most don't understand why they can't.

I think a small mechanic change to when you're not training something you're gaining "unspent" SP would go a long way for players to see and realise that even when you aren't playing your "Gaining Experience" that can be spent on whatever "Traits" you want.

Also think that any trial account that isn't activated within 14 Days of it running out of time, should be removed.

Most of the Tutorials personally I'd overhaul along with A LOT (if not ALL) of the PVE Content, specifically so that it's passively teaching rather than hand-holding with a direct "You do this" type tutorial.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#11 - 2014-06-19 18:11:18 UTC
900k already set skills or unallocated?
unallocated would be abused to no end and already trained would ruin our skillpoint lossless alts.

In either way NO THANKS.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Dally Lama
Doomheim
#12 - 2014-06-19 18:19:21 UTC
You have some good points. Players should not have to train anything to do basic mining, PVE or PVP.

I do not think 800,000 SP is needed though. Perhaps they just need to make civilian versions of most modules, make them have 0 training requirements, and make them something 25% less useful than the Meta0.

Venture should require no training to sit in, I agree with that.

New Fitting Window | Distances above 10km | Maximums for buy orders
Ko Kury Naki
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2014-06-19 18:20:34 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
900k already set skills or unallocated?
unallocated would be abused to no end and already trained would ruin our skillpoint lossless alts.

In either way NO THANKS.


Please give an example of such abuse.
Ko Kury Naki
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-06-19 18:30:30 UTC
RavenTesio wrote:
I think a small mechanic change to when you're not training something you're gaining "unspent" SP would go a long way for players to see and realise that even when you aren't playing your "Gaining Experience" that can be spent on whatever "Traits" you want.


I do fully support idea of collecting unspent SP.
I would gladly keep active subscription on my chars with that feature at times I was too overwhelmed by RL things.
I have a job demanding very much at times (deployment of complicated IT systems for big companies) and at some
moments I'm just to tired or absorbed to play EvE even if it's limited to "Skill Queue Online" ;)
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2014-06-19 18:40:56 UTC
Ko Kury Naki wrote:
RavenTesio wrote:
I think a small mechanic change to when you're not training something you're gaining "unspent" SP would go a long way for players to see and realise that even when you aren't playing your "Gaining Experience" that can be spent on whatever "Traits" you want.


I do fully support idea of collecting unspent SP.
I would gladly keep active subscription on my chars with that feature at times I was too overwhelmed by RL things.
I have a job demanding very much at times (deployment of complicated IT systems for big companies) and at some
moments I'm just to tired or absorbed to play EvE even if it's limited to "Skill Queue Online" ;)



Only if they accumulate at the lowest possible speed by combining your 2 current lowest attributes so you cannot use full remap in 2 attributes to grind SP to allocate on skills requiring other attributes faster than you should by having a skill in queue.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#16 - 2014-06-19 18:55:00 UTC
30 second disposable cyno toons?


the original buffs to new toons were removed because they gave players the ability to get into ships they couldn't afford to buy.

even now, with proper implants and skill training, you can get into a T2 fitted drake in 12 days, or T2 raven in 25 days with a new toon. you plan to give them their first 30 days training in an instant?
imagine the thousands of throw away bot ratting ravens turning up in nullsec on trail accounts, which just send the isk to a toon a few mins before the account expires and and ejects the ship in a pos for the replacement char to use.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#17 - 2014-06-19 18:55:06 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
[Rifter, Newbie PVP]

Damage Control I
Adaptive Nano Plating I
200mm Reinforced Steel Plates I

1MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor I
Stasis Webifier I

125mm Gatling AutoCannon I, EMP S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon I, EMP S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon I, EMP S
[empty high slot]

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

(note: everything fits with no skills)

I think you are a little off the mark OP. Only two things are absolutely necessary when starting out in PvP; warp disruptor/scrambler and a MWD. That's it. Everything else is fluff and can be worked on.

Will you do a lot of dps? Nope.
Will you be able to rep? Nope.
There is no point in either (largely because you simply do not have the stats to make any difference) until you have learned other ways to mitigate damage... like using speed (you can burn around 2000 m/sec) and range... which will count a lot more in the long run.

So what can a newbie do? Scout and tackle.
These are boring jobs you say? Not at all... they are very necessary (and critical) roles when working in a group. And again, they teach people more than just "tank-F1-gank."
Is it suicidal? Often, yes. But as with most things, humans learn better from their failures than their successes. Looking back when I was a newbie... I died, a lot. I got pissed off quite often. But I kept learning and getting better with what I had because I did not like dying.


As for the rest of your idea... awhile ago people complained about there being too many skills when you started out. It was argued that...

- a newbie would never know or figure what skills he/she had or what they all did. They have no need to look at them since they already have them, right?

- it added "bloat" to characters that people wanted to be "pure"... with no "extra" skills that they did not personally add (apparently it's an OCD thing that more than a few people are REALLY adamant about).

- too much SP too soon makes the newbies hit that 900,000 SP limit... effectively meaning that death starts having "consequences" much earlier which leads to more more conservative behavior.



@ Saelem Black... when CCP removed learning skills they also removed the SP acceleration thing for newbies... largely because they thought it would be a bad idea for a veteran to be able to focus-train a new character from 0 to mostly T2-fit Drake with decent "core skills" in about a month (this is more or less the DEVs' exact words too).


And I do not support training unallocated SP in any way, shape, or form. Even if they are accumulated at the lowest SP rate they are still MUCH MORE valuable than any amount of well-placed SP. Why? Simply because it allows you to instantly train into whatever you want, whenever you want it... like the latest FOTM.

How did you Veterans start?
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#18 - 2014-06-19 19:03:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
Again the same nonsense.

All depends on players perception. I started : I did not expect anything, skills were fine, training felt awesome for what I could afford an achieve, well balanced.
Now creating an alt or a new toon after a while, of course it feels underskilled, but it s a new toon, that's what dual training or the character market is for if you want to speed things up.

In the end it all comes down to perception, since the system works, is fine, should not be changed etc. etc. etc. skill point rubbish....
... and with that I mean, you get 200k now, in latest 6 months someone posts "200k, laughable, need min 350k"... that gets implemented, 6 months later, "350k you kidding, need 600k or its super boring" .. again in 6 months "600k, newbies are treated like retards, can't do anything in game super slow skill grind " ... never ends....

Point is, even 0 skill points are fine to start with, stop jabbing, your problems are elsewhere.
Ko Kury Naki
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2014-06-19 19:35:40 UTC
Ncc 1709 wrote:
30 second disposable cyno toons?

Thats good point but can and need to be somehow addressed. Maybe by requiring 3 days old char or so ...

Ncc 1709 wrote:

even now, with proper implants and skill training, you can get into a T2 fitted drake in 12 days, or T2 raven in 25 days with a new toon.


Realistic, full t2 fit PVE drake requires at least 30 days not counting support skills, example of passive full T2 Drake,
set up against Guristas (with 1 med slot spare):
[Drake, Passive guristas ubertank]

6x Heavy Missile Launcher II (Scourge Heavy Missile)

Thermic Dissipation Field II
2x Kinetic Deflection Field II
2x Large Shield Extender II

3x Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I
Damage Control II

3x Medium Core Defense Field Purger I

Let's not discuss if it's overtanked or so, it's just an example of quickiest trainable T2 Drake I found in my cache.
Add there fitting skills, missile support skills and drone skills and you land far, far beyond 12 days.
Maybe I'm wrong so an example of your T2 Drake would be nice.

Based on above I will not comment claim of "T2 fit BS" as it's even less possible.

Ncc 1709 wrote:

you plan to give them their first 30 days training in an instant?

Exactly thats the idea.

Ncc 1709 wrote:

imagine the thousands of throw away bot ratting ravens turning up in nullsec on trail accounts, which just send the isk to a toon a few mins before the account expires and and ejects the ship in a pos for the replacement char to use.

Looks really great.
1. Someone must produce these thousands of hulls and fit for them, someone must mine materials for that, someone must transport and sell them.
I see this as great economy boost.
2. If they are in null then someone will hunt them - more pvp even for rookies as these bots will not defend too strongly.
Just another kind of NPC to kill. After killing them they must buy a new ship ... so again an economy boost.
I think many players will find it funny to board few interceptors and make a raid to hunt these Ravens.
More fun for all but these poor bot drivers :)
Ko Kury Naki
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2014-06-19 19:45:18 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Point is, even 0 skill points are fine to start with, stop jabbing, your problems are elsewhere.


Let say I'm your RL friend.
Let say you want me to play EvE Online with you.
Let say I'm starting Trial Account having your invitation.

Please describe next week of playing EvE with me. Please describe fun you have and I have.

I invited couple of friends, so remember well what they were complaining about.
I rolled this char to test myself if they are right ...

They were right, but does it matter ?
They don't decided to play EvE.
"This is boring game, we can't do anything funny" they said ...
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