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FW suspect timer for everyone who enter a plex!

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Tamare Altol
NAVY SEALS xD
#61 - 2014-06-19 07:11:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tamare Altol
[TLDR]
Get lost, in space :)

[Prologue]
Greetings,

I wanted to give you a perspective of a Pilot and his friends who recently (few weeks ago) joined the Factional Warfare conflict in hope of gaining some pvp experience and being able to blow stuff up. It quickly came to our attention that indeed there was not a lot going on, if you are in small numbers, between FW-Factions except for hide & seek :) - the only proper fights we got were against pirates.

That is totally fine - since who cares what they are shooting at anyway, as long as it goes "booom", am I aight? Well....not quite. I am sure, for those of you who chose to be a pirate, it is totally fine - but take a Pilot like me for example, I chose FW because it gave me a reason and the opportunity to explore low-sec and fight other pilots (FW targets) without loosing sec-status.

Now I understand that gaining sec-status isn't hard and I am _not_ complaining at all, since it is no problem to get it back, yet time you have to invest - I just wanted to make clear that I understand players who do care about it and why the OP is trying to make his point here. I like my sec-status, don't get me wrong, but If a non FW-Pilot enters a PLEX and I can see that it is a pirate, I'm gonna shoot first, ask later or run.

But that ain't why I am here...

[The Situation]
I'm here to understand, if the current FW-System works as intended, since loosing sec-status as a pilot, enlisted to the militia of an empire while defending/attacking strategic FW areas (e.g. PLEX) versus pirates makes no sense to me; they are the outlaws - not me!

[Concord]
Now as far as I understand, the concord has always kept out of empire matters and therefor not interfered with war related conflicts. This made me think of the concord as a powerful ally, keeping me save in high sec and punishing all those villains :).

[Factional Warfare]
This conflict, bringing war to New Eden lets pilots from one faction to fight pilots from another faction, who are of course at war - without concord interfering or punishing them. Hence there are rules of engagement, making life easy or not - matter not, we have to follow them, if we want to stay upright citizens of the empire.

[Security Status]
This... "reputation"-system with the concord and empires should not be affected by my actions in FW, as long as I follow the rules. Rules that were put in place for low sec, Factional Warfare and pilots in common - meaning that if I shoot someone in low sec, that is not a legitimate target (e.g. flagged/timers/wt), I will lose sec-status.

[Epilogue]
I don't think there is a solution for problems like these, that doesn't somehow affect one side in a negative way, or at least none that is easily implemented, but we gotta try, aight...? Therefor I believe the OP approached the problem and therefore its solution from a wrong view.

Pilots shouldn't get flagged for simply being in a certain area - EVE is a open world, everyone can go anywhere, probably dies, but yeah, they can and should. However... we can turn this around!

[Solution]
I suggest, that all FW-pilots have the right to properly defend themselves versus pirates in strategic FW areas (e.g. PLEX).
Therefor following rule of engagement should be established:

- If a pilot enters a FW-Complex and has a positive (>0) sec standing, pilots of a militia are bound to the rules of the concord and therefor lose sec-status if they are to engage first.
- If a pilot enters a FW-Complex and has a negative (<0) sec standing, pilots of a militia _can_ engage without loosing sec status, as long as the rules are followed.

[Conclusion]
So in the grand scheme of things...what does really change?

Yeah...you will have to take the first hit as pilot of the militia, if your target does not yet have a negative sec status and is a pirate - but let's face it, most of them don't care and are not hitting a positive sec status...or are they :)?

- Pilots of a militia won't lose sec status for defending themselves vs outlaws in FW areas, but still receive penalties for engaging neutral targets (no flag/timer/wt).
- Pirates can still engage other pilots in those areas, nothing really changed.
- There is no global flagging everyone.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#62 - 2014-06-19 07:30:48 UTC
Dally Lama wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Mag's wrote:
No they do get it. But they like me, live by the rules associated with low sec. One of them being that if I aggress a neutral target without the correct rights, I lose some sec.

You on the other hand, seem to think you should be handed a free pass. lol no.


Because entering a military warzone as a neutral carrying heavy weaponry won't get you shot at. Roll
There are often neutrals in military warzones and they may carry weapons. But there are also rules of engagement and consequences if you break them. Blink

Yes.

One of those rules: If you are a random capsuleer we do not know and you enter our faction military operations, you may be killed on sight.
Indeed and you can already do that. But you may have to deal with consequences, if you broke rules of engagement. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2014-06-19 07:45:58 UTC
Tamare Altol wrote:

I suggest, that all FW-pilots have the right to properly defend themselves versus outlaws in strategic FW areas (e.g. PLEX).
Therefor following rule of engagement should be established:

- If a pilot enters a FW-Complex and has a positive (>0) sec standing, pilots of a militia are bound to the rules of the concord and therefor lose sec-status if they are to engage first.
- If a pilot enters a FW-Complex and has a negative (<0) sec standing, pilots of a militia _can_ engage without loosing sec status, as long as the rules are followed.

outlaws are players under -5.0 security status, and they are already free to engage to everyone
Tamare Altol
NAVY SEALS xD
#64 - 2014-06-19 08:11:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tamare Altol
Benny Ohu wrote:
Tamare Altol wrote:

I suggest, that all FW-pilots have the right to properly defend themselves versus outlaws in strategic FW areas (e.g. PLEX).
Therefor following rule of engagement should be established:

- If a pilot enters a FW-Complex and has a positive (>0) sec standing, pilots of a militia are bound to the rules of the concord and therefor lose sec-status if they are to engage first.
- If a pilot enters a FW-Complex and has a negative (<0) sec standing, pilots of a militia _can_ engage without loosing sec status, as long as the rules are followed.

outlaws are players under -5.0 security status, and they are already free to engage to everyone


I misused the word "outlaw" in that case, sorry.

I was talking about pilots that are below 0. If a pilot with low sec status enters a militarized zone (FW PLEX), he should be a target (outlaw as in a pirate, but not flagged, since its only in this area) for the militia that can be engaged without a loss of sec-status.
Varathius
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#65 - 2014-06-19 10:10:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Varathius
Back on topic.

For solo pilots, that are not in FW, I would not mind to have a suspect timer if I activate the gate. However, if a FW player can attack a non-FW without standing loss in the plex, then the non-FW should also NOT be losing standings with the corporation of the FW-player nor with concord.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#66 - 2014-06-19 10:30:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Dav Varan
Any rule would need to be a general rule for the whole of low sec, not one applicable only under very specific circumstances.


eg. in low sec.

Firing on a ship that has a warp disruption module of any kind fitted is not a concord security offence.
No sec loss, no suspect flag, just that duel timer thingy that allows response to aggression.

Normal standing hits would stil apply.

Someway of determining the ship as a legitiamate target such as overview colouring would of course be neccessary.



The rational for this rule is.

A ship fitted with a disruption module is a pvp ship designed in part or in whole to prevent the free passage of other vessels.
In a region of space where concord is unable to provide consequences concord recognises the fact that a vessel may need to engage first in order to defend itself against an opponent vessel has the ability to stop them leaving should it gain a tactical advantage.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#67 - 2014-06-19 11:01:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Crimewatch was done to simplify the rules system. There should be no special cases, that remove consequences from a few pilots unwilling to accept them. The only way I would find acceptable, is to remove sec hits for all ship engagements in low sec and move it to pods only. This way everyone benefits and it remains simple.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Onomerous
KARNAGE
Ghostbirds
#68 - 2014-06-19 16:53:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Onomerous
Mag's wrote:
Crimewatch was done to simplify the rules system. There should be no special cases, that remove consequences from a few pilots unwilling to accept them. The only way I would find acceptable, is to remove sec hits for all ship engagements in low sec and move it to pods only. This way everyone benefits and it remains simple.


^^ ends the debate

FW is warfare which implies fighting. The rules are just fine as they are now.
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#69 - 2014-06-23 17:31:42 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Crimewatch was done to simplify the rules system. There should be no special cases, that remove consequences from a few pilots unwilling to accept them. The only way I would find acceptable, is to remove sec hits for all ship engagements in low sec and move it to pods only. This way everyone benefits and it remains simple.


Yup, penalize podkills in low but remove any other security hit. Best solution to get noobs into PvP.

I am not an alt of Chribba.
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#70 - 2014-06-23 18:32:36 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Crimewatch was done to simplify the rules system. There should be no special cases, that remove consequences from a few pilots unwilling to accept them. The only way I would find acceptable, is to remove sec hits for all ship engagements in low sec and move it to pods only. This way everyone benefits and it remains simple.


How would gate guns/station guns work? Would they shoot nothing? Remain how they are now? I wouldn't mind this at all.

Crimewatch is in need of a re-vamp though. Recent example. 40v40 cruiser fleet against E-Uni. I lost sec status for each of the 30 ships I shot at. The rules of engagement shouldn't apply to me and only me especially in a game that touts teamwork and huge fleets. Something like if you shoot 3-5 different fleet members you get a limited engagement with the entire fleet.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#71 - 2014-06-24 09:28:00 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Crimewatch was done to simplify the rules system. There should be no special cases, that remove consequences from a few pilots unwilling to accept them. The only way I would find acceptable, is to remove sec hits for all ship engagements in low sec and move it to pods only. This way everyone benefits and it remains simple.


How would gate guns/station guns work? Would they shoot nothing? Remain how they are now? I wouldn't mind this at all.

Crimewatch is in need of a re-vamp though. Recent example. 40v40 cruiser fleet against E-Uni. I lost sec status for each of the 30 ships I shot at. The rules of engagement shouldn't apply to me and only me especially in a game that touts teamwork and huge fleets. Something like if you shoot 3-5 different fleet members you get a limited engagement with the entire fleet.
Well gate and station guns could remain as they are now I guess. Probably the most balanced way to approach it.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#72 - 2014-06-24 16:03:17 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Sowek Kazakov wrote:
I think both sides stated their opinions. FW players made their points, trying to explain to other pilots, which obviously didn't understand the situation because of their lack experience of 'plexing' and FW mechanics, or tried to fix a mentality of people who defend their imaginary advantage of 'having chance to attack if someone has messed up overview, and don't notice them entering'.
No they do get it. But they like me, live by the rules associated with low sec. One of them being that if I aggress a neutral target without the correct rights, I lose some sec.

You on the other hand, seem to think you should be handed a free pass. lol no.


Because grinding REP is fun. Oh you play wow.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#73 - 2014-06-24 16:11:18 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Sowek Kazakov wrote:
I think both sides stated their opinions. FW players made their points, trying to explain to other pilots, which obviously didn't understand the situation because of their lack experience of 'plexing' and FW mechanics, or tried to fix a mentality of people who defend their imaginary advantage of 'having chance to attack if someone has messed up overview, and don't notice them entering'.
No they do get it. But they like me, live by the rules associated with low sec. One of them being that if I aggress a neutral target without the correct rights, I lose some sec.

You on the other hand, seem to think you should be handed a free pass. lol no.


Because grinding REP is fun. Oh you play wow.
Never played WoW or done any grinding in Eve. If I ever wish to fix my security standing, I would buy tags.

Sorry, what was your point again? If you even had one, that is.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#74 - 2014-06-26 12:07:04 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Sowek Kazakov wrote:
don't shoot first? Are you kidding? Most of the fights in plex are about who catch who first. If he's MWD and im AB, i need to scram him first. Otherwise, I'm dead.


Well, in real PvP, if he's MWD and you're AB, you're already dead.


Not necessarily. I once caught a nice Assault frigate with a AB-Caracal.
Elusive Panda
Void Covenant
The Initiative.
#75 - 2014-06-26 16:39:05 UTC
Being someone who likes to go shooting up everything that moves in FW, I really don't mind getting set suspect, I'm usually suspect anyway or will be soon enough.

HOWEVER, it gives another advantages to the defender, since if he's watching local and d-scan, he can know which pilot is warping in.

I feel like the defender already has enough advantages.

Limited engagement maybe? Both pilot knows then, but what if you're warping in fleet vs fleet, everyone gets a limited with everyone? That's madness.

In the end, is the sec status hit really so bad? High-sec is a horrible place to be anyway, sending an alt in your place works pretty well and if you really MUST go to HS, tags are at a record low price thanks to Mordu's.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#76 - 2014-06-26 17:01:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Rift
I enjoy entering FW just to annoy the person inside if they shoot I shoot back but there have been times they waited for me to aggress first to take the sec hit and when I didn't we just orbited each other. I imagine it was a very stressful rest of the plex for him.


Sometimes you can get them to plead in local to leave "their" plex, sometimes they chicken out and leave the plex unfinished and the brave few who finish the plex warp off to there next plex without any trouble from me.


Edit: can someone tell me correct me on this fact, concord deals with sec status? because if its so then the mechanic shouldn't be changed cause concord couldn't care less about your war and your faction. When in low and high sec you have to abide by concords rules. Your faction and who you are at war with isn't relevant.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#77 - 2014-06-27 08:22:55 UTC
Sowek Kazakov wrote:
*Snip* Removed reply to a deleted post. ISD Ezwal.

Quote:
Well, in real PvP, if he's MWD and you're AB, you're already dead.


Not. My 1v1 stats prove it. That's why I have advantage of being in plex. If he wants to come, he needs to risk that I can scram it. If i do scram him, I'm losing Security Status.



Poor man. You do not have offgrid links alt? I thought everyone has one.

On a more serious note - perhaps indeed it would make sense to give "neutrals" coming into complexes some kind of flag. They are, after-all interfering with empire business and it is highly unlikely that anyone would take a FW plex gate by "accident".

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#78 - 2014-06-27 12:48:16 UTC
Ciara McCandless wrote:
Sowek Kazakov wrote:
I'm tired of it.

There is bunch of pirates, that keep their Security Status over -5. Thanks to that they can't be atacked on gates, but can roam in low-sec, and find targets in plexes. It's cool. I love fighting them. I do it often and even more often i win. Because of me not running away from them I'm losing security status. While being in plex. Defending my beloved militia.

So this is some missunderstanding on concept of low-sec roamers. CCP, please make everyone who enter a plex having a suspect timer. Neutrals who enter a plex, don't go there for nothing. In 99% they go for a kill. 1% is for a noobs that don't know what plexes are.

Sowek.


You should be watching your back, if any ship appears on grid or within D-scan range then you are in danger, so how is a suspect timer going to make it easier to see something you should be on the lookout for anyway?

Oh wait, I get it now, you are not watching grid or D-Scan!

In that case send me your location and I will come "help" you to stay safe while you are not being careful in a dangerous place.

...you're missing the point entirely. OP is not about avoiding fights or making it easier for the person running the plex, it is ONLY about making the fight so both sides don't lose sec status they don't have to. Dscan has no bearing other than preparedness for a fight, and making sure you know what's outside/inside the plex. Read before you post.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#79 - 2014-06-27 12:49:34 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
Sowek Kazakov wrote:
*Snip* Removed reply to a deleted post. ISD Ezwal.

Quote:
Well, in real PvP, if he's MWD and you're AB, you're already dead.


Not. My 1v1 stats prove it. That's why I have advantage of being in plex. If he wants to come, he needs to risk that I can scram it. If i do scram him, I'm losing Security Status.



Poor man. You do not have offgrid links alt? I thought everyone has one.

On a more serious note - perhaps indeed it would make sense to give "neutrals" coming into complexes some kind of flag. They are, after-all interfering with empire business and it is highly unlikely that anyone would take a FW plex gate by "accident".


That's the main plus with a universal suspect timer; neutrals coming into the plex can fight the mlitia people too without taking a standing hit; everybody wins (except the guy who gets blow'd up). :)
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#80 - 2014-06-27 12:52:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Mag's wrote:
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Sowek Kazakov wrote:
I think both sides stated their opinions. FW players made their points, trying to explain to other pilots, which obviously didn't understand the situation because of their lack experience of 'plexing' and FW mechanics, or tried to fix a mentality of people who defend their imaginary advantage of 'having chance to attack if someone has messed up overview, and don't notice them entering'.
No they do get it. But they like me, live by the rules associated with low sec. One of them being that if I aggress a neutral target without the correct rights, I lose some sec.

You on the other hand, seem to think you should be handed a free pass. lol no.


Because grinding REP is fun. Oh you play wow.
Never played WoW or done any grinding in Eve. If I ever wish to fix my security standing, I would buy tags.

Sorry, what was your point again? If you even had one, that is.

universal suspect timer means BOTH sides are suspect, meaning it's equal benefit for both sides to implement this. It wouldn't be too difficult to extend the timer so the militiaman stays suspect; an idea would be shooting the NPC spawns trigger suspect again, which would be fair assuming the timing was spaced correctly. That, or a new rat spawn that would balance the current amount of time under suspect with what's on the beacon, after the initial suspect timer triggered by entering the plex. The timing is what's tricky to work out here, since normal universal suspect timer doesn't line up with how long is on the plex beacon most times.