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Plex Farmer Check

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Endeveren Erata
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#161 - 2014-06-17 19:44:44 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:
2. I spend much of my day defensive plexing my home system. Every. Single. Day. As long as I am online and at the keyboard, no wartarget captures a plex in my system. Yet there I am spending hours deplexing. If I don't, few others will, and the system slowly ticks up. That not pressure?
Do you still spend much of your day defensive plexing, or is this all a pre-Kronos statement?


I do, and I have the stabbed farmer killmails to prove it.

The crappy no-skill ones are sticking to novice plexes, and the others have started using stabbed destroyers. Blaster can can do a large.......


They can't do it effiiciently. It took me a good minute of whacking away at a BC rat with a Moa with 450 dps.\

In addition, the rats have reduced a lot of stabbed plexing, and destroyers are much more expensive and much easier to catch than frigates.


And the BC rats MWD faster than my condor! :P
Anne Dieu-leveut
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#162 - 2014-06-17 22:30:11 UTC
Major Trant wrote:
I don't care for farmers, but I do care that the constant attempt to appease the anti-farmer lobby has damaged solo pvp in the plexes. I went in a novice plex yesterday in a Breacher, a proper PvP fit that I've killed dozens of capsuleer faction frigates, dessies and even cruisers with. But I couldn't kill the frigate rat. I gave up after about 5 minutes and left. That was just the first one, remember they now respawn every 2 or 3 minutes.

This may damage farmers. Some will leave FW, some will change to just deplexing high contested systems and some will start fitting proper combat ships. All that seems to be a good thing, but I can't see it resulting in more fights in the plexes at least for solo players. Very few will actually stand and fight in what is an offensive plex to them. Even if they do clear the initial rat, another will spawn in the middle of the PvP fight and of course instances of attacking an offensive plex with a player in it, where you know a hard rat will definitely be up will reduce considerably. Unless of course the attacker is a neutral.

Instances of gang fights in the plexes could possibly suffer too. Because there will be less need to deplex generally. Thus, you see a 10 man fleet in your home system and there is only 6 or you online, why try to take a one sided fight when it won't make a difference? There won't be the fear that if you leave them, they will run the whole plex stack and reach a momentum that could threaten the system. Instead one man can run down a couple of defensive plex later, cause you don't need to worry about enemy farmers or even solo PvPers continuing the offensive during their off peak times.

The OP has suggested the tears are in the Minmatar militia over this. Well there might be more farmers over here at the moment, but the real victims in this warzone are the Amarr. It is going to be very difficult to swing the warzone back to the Amarr without (offensive) farmers. It is going to be very stagnant IMO and the Amarr are in for a very lean time ahead, stuck with just 18 systems and tier 1. I for one don't think that will be a good thing long term for the PvPers or FW in general. A bigger watershed effect has been created.

Long term there is a ray of hope in that warzone stagnation or stability will reduce burnout and encourage the use of large fleet operations to take systems. Some very good fleet fight could be had. However, I think most FW veterans are currently bordering on plex burnout from the old tidal system. So it might be a few months before we see such large organised operations coming together.

I'm kinda on the fence atm. We need to give it a few months to see how things settle before we can say for sure whether FW will be improved or ruined by these changes. But one thing I am sure about is that farming will return in one guise or another. Only in this case I think it will be in defensive plexing in high contested systems on the dominant side. ie It is going to be bloody hard work for the side on the back foot to recover.


Signed
Iudicium Vastus
Doomheim
#163 - 2014-06-17 23:26:43 UTC
Anne Dieu-leveut wrote:
Major Trant wrote:
I don't care for farmers, but I do care that the constant attempt to appease the anti-farmer lobby has damaged solo pvp in the plexes. I went in a novice plex yesterday in a Breacher, a proper PvP fit that I've killed dozens of capsuleer faction frigates, dessies and even cruisers with. But I couldn't kill the frigate rat. I gave up after about 5 minutes and left. That was just the first one, remember they now respawn every 2 or 3 minutes.

This may damage farmers. Some will leave FW, some will change to just deplexing high contested systems and some will start fitting proper combat ships. All that seems to be a good thing, but I can't see it resulting in more fights in the plexes at least for solo players. Very few will actually stand and fight in what is an offensive plex to them. Even if they do clear the initial rat, another will spawn in the middle of the PvP fight and of course instances of attacking an offensive plex with a player in it, where you know a hard rat will definitely be up will reduce considerably. Unless of course the attacker is a neutral.

Instances of gang fights in the plexes could possibly suffer too. Because there will be less need to deplex generally. Thus, you see a 10 man fleet in your home system and there is only 6 or you online, why try to take a one sided fight when it won't make a difference? There won't be the fear that if you leave them, they will run the whole plex stack and reach a momentum that could threaten the system. Instead one man can run down a couple of defensive plex later, cause you don't need to worry about enemy farmers or even solo PvPers continuing the offensive during their off peak times.

The OP has suggested the tears are in the Minmatar militia over this. Well there might be more farmers over here at the moment, but the real victims in this warzone are the Amarr. It is going to be very difficult to swing the warzone back to the Amarr without (offensive) farmers. It is going to be very stagnant IMO and the Amarr are in for a very lean time ahead, stuck with just 18 systems and tier 1. I for one don't think that will be a good thing long term for the PvPers or FW in general. A bigger watershed effect has been created.

Long term there is a ray of hope in that warzone stagnation or stability will reduce burnout and encourage the use of large fleet operations to take systems. Some very good fleet fight could be had. However, I think most FW veterans are currently bordering on plex burnout from the old tidal system. So it might be a few months before we see such large organised operations coming together.

I'm kinda on the fence atm. We need to give it a few months to see how things settle before we can say for sure whether FW will be improved or ruined by these changes. But one thing I am sure about is that farming will return in one guise or another. Only in this case I think it will be in defensive plexing in high contested systems on the dominant side. ie It is going to be bloody hard work for the side on the back foot to recover.


Signed


Amen!

This anti-farmer stuff has indeed put a hamper on solo.
Tossing the baby with the bathwater.

[u]Nerf stabs/cloaks in FW?[/u] No, just.. -Fit more points -Fit faction points -Bring a friend or two with points (an alt is fine too)
Irya Boone
The Scope
#164 - 2014-06-18 00:46:18 UTC
Who said you actually HAVE TO be in the plex .... to solo ? Shocked

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#165 - 2014-06-18 01:08:59 UTC
If you want to argue against the plex changes try not to do so with your farmer alt.
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#166 - 2014-06-18 02:15:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Baron' Soontir Fel
Anne Dieu-leveut wrote:
I don't care for farmers, but I do care that the constant attempt to appease the anti-farmer lobby has damaged solo pvp in the plexes. I went in a novice plex yesterday in a Breacher, a proper PvP fit that I've killed dozens of capsuleer faction frigates, dessies and even cruisers with. But I couldn't kill the frigate rat.


Proper PvP fit Breacher that can't put out 75 dps?

I was wrong. I was looking at level 5 skills.
African Angel
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#167 - 2014-06-18 03:20:13 UTC
The farmers have just changed to farming friendly plexes. They can sit in there in a frig with nothing but wcs and an ab fitted, raking in isk with practically 0 risk and even if someone does go through the effort of fitting 2-3 warp scramblers to kill them the ship they lost is so worthless it's not even a loss. it's mind boggling that the mechanic even exists in the first place.
Endeveren Erata
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#168 - 2014-06-18 10:32:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Endeveren Erata
African Angel wrote:
The farmers have just changed to farming friendly plexes. They can sit in there in a frig with nothing but wcs and an ab fitted, raking in isk with practically 0 risk and even if someone does go through the effort of fitting 2-3 warp scramblers to kill them the ship they lost is so worthless it's not even a loss. it's mind boggling that the mechanic even exists in the first place.


Minmatar ones can. Defensive plexing is drying up really damn fast in Black Rise yet I'm oddly still seeing TLF bots flying around Black Rise trying to O plex with stabbed punishers. I gotta laugh at that they probably have barely gotten any LP all week but they still keep zipping around all day.

Plus Minmatar have so many more systems the farmers can just stab def plex in at tier 3 or 4 or whatever the hell you guys are at right now that I'm pretty sure the Amarrians are screwed for a long, long time.
Endeveren Erata
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#169 - 2014-06-18 10:44:04 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Anne Dieu-leveut wrote:
I don't care for farmers, but I do care that the constant attempt to appease the anti-farmer lobby has damaged solo pvp in the plexes. I went in a novice plex yesterday in a Breacher, a proper PvP fit that I've killed dozens of capsuleer faction frigates, dessies and even cruisers with. But I couldn't kill the frigate rat.


Proper PvP fit Breacher that can't put out 75 dps?

Yea, I call BS.
2 Warrior II's and 3 LML II's with regular ammo - 86 dps.

Fit Hobs, use rockets, use faction ammo, etc. Easily break the 75dps barrier.


Farmer confirmed.


Assuming he has the skills to back up that dps.

Those of us with lower sp put out a lot less dps and are effectively locked out of offensive plexing entirely. The best I got so far is about 60 something dps with a rocket fit condor , web, scram, td which has been able to slowly chew through a novice npc and leave me with enough shield to pretend if something jumped me I would at least start with most of my pathetic EHP but it forces a brawler fit on a lot of ships in order to offensive plex when it would have been more interesting had they simply made it so beacons made stabs not function (for the larges) or that stabbed people couldn't enter plexes.

I've already seen TLF people in mediums and larges with stabbed navy vexors running ogre Is lol. The farmers are just going to adapt while people actually trying to try a fit out for pvp are getting screwed.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#170 - 2014-06-18 11:37:12 UTC
Minmatar tier 4 will only last as long as the non farmer members continue to contribute to the ihubs. Once they get tired of supporting the farmers and the depreciating LP I expect the Amarr/Minmatar front to be tier 1/2 on both sides. The wild high tier swings won't happen anymore. At that point in time we can draw a more accurate picture on the future of farming.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#171 - 2014-06-18 14:00:54 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Minmatar tier 4 will only last as long as the non farmer members continue to contribute to the ihubs. Once they get tired of supporting the farmers and the depreciating LP I expect the Amarr/Minmatar front to be tier 1/2 on both sides. The wild high tier swings won't happen anymore. At that point in time we can draw a more accurate picture on the future of farming.

It's gonna be a long time until that happens since nobody is offensive plexing. The system has almost settled and it appears that half people are running plexes at about half the pace as before the rules changes - and from my observations it mostly seems to be defensive plexing.

At this rate the mission running whores should be able to keep up with the LP drain.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#172 - 2014-06-18 14:22:50 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Minmatar tier 4 will only last as long as the non farmer members continue to contribute to the ihubs. Once they get tired of supporting the farmers and the depreciating LP I expect the Amarr/Minmatar front to be tier 1/2 on both sides. The wild high tier swings won't happen anymore. At that point in time we can draw a more accurate picture on the future of farming.

It's gonna be a long time until that happens since nobody is offensive plexing. The system has almost settled and it appears that half people are running plexes at about half the pace as before the rules changes - and from my observations it mostly seems to be defensive plexing.

At this rate the mission running whores should be able to keep up with the LP drain.



I have no strong predictions on this. But farmers probably need to train some drone skills and gallente cruiser skills. Once that is done we will see if we get more oplexing.

What amounts of vp were amarr and minmatar hitting the weeks before the patch?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#173 - 2014-06-18 15:02:41 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
https://api.eveonline.com/eve/FacWarTopStats.xml.aspx


"VictoryPointsYesterday"
Gallente Federation 21880
Caldari State 16500
Amarr Empire 9000
Minmatar Republic 8080

The truth is revealed. Gallente are a bunch of carebear farmers.

For reference: before expansion Gallente/Caldari were near 30k/day.


This was right after the patch. Gallente/Caldari were at about 30k vp/day before. I don't know what the Amarr/Minmatar rate was for sure, but I think is was 11-12k vp / day (?)
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#174 - 2014-06-18 15:54:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Baron' Soontir Fel
Endeveren Erata wrote:


Assuming he has the skills to back up that dps.

Those of us with lower sp put out a lot less dps and are effectively locked out of offensive plexing entirely. The best I got so far is about 60 something dps with a rocket fit condor , web, scram, td which has been able to slowly chew through a novice npc and leave me with enough shield to pretend if something jumped me I would at least start with most of my pathetic EHP but it forces a brawler fit on a lot of ships in order to offensive plex when it would have been more interesting had they simply made it so beacons made stabs not function (for the larges) or that stabbed people couldn't enter plexes.


Yea, I just ran the numbers for new pilots and missile ships. I changed my mind.

You can hit above 75dps with T2 missiles (Rage) and a damage rig, but it still won't be easy with that little tank.

In my opinion, CCP made a big step forward with the DPS check, but made a huge mistake with the DPS check implementation.

The problem is that Merlins can put out large amounts of DPS with nothing but blasters. You put the same pilot in a missile ship and your DPS is only 60% of the Merlin can do. They need someway to modify the DPS tank of the rat based on what weapons type you're using. It sounds weird and bad, but to do it effectively, that's the only way they can do it.
Rocket condors are cool and effective counters to blaster ab ships, but put out such pathetic dps that they can't handle novice rats.
LML Kestrels, Breachers, and Condors should be able to deal with the AB meta, but when they put out 90 dps (max) and dealing with 3-4 rat spawns, it's a major problem.


The rep of the rat should be something like 50 dps for missile ships (condors, kestrels, breachers), 50 dps for support ships (griffins/crucifiers/mauluses), and 75 dps for turret ships (merlins, incursus, tormentor, etc)
For numbers (t1 ammo):
Meta Kestrel puts out (With a BCS) - 75 dps
T2 Rocket Condor puts out (no BCS) - 73 dps
LML Kestrel puts out (with dmg rig/ t2weaps) - 75 dps
These are all solo fits I've gotten multiple kills with in the past.

Contrast this with a meta Merlin with t1 ammo with no magstab and no damage rigs - 91 dps.

This is with full level 5 skills. CCP just took a dump on all new missile pilots. There's no way you can compete with the raw dps of blasters. The whole point of missiles is to keep range and have fully applied dps, not pure dps.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#175 - 2014-06-18 16:30:53 UTC
i am selling slicers at a discount for poor lml boat farmers if interested. You get the money back if you can't kill the novice rat with it.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Thorin Matarielle
The All-Seeing Eye
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#176 - 2014-06-18 20:19:41 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
i am selling slicers at a discount for poor lml boat farmers if interested. You get the money back if you can't kill the novice rat with it.



ROFL Bien comment of the day! ^^ :) Epic topic Zarnak look at all those salty Minmatard farmer tears... Cant solo the novice in my breacher lol... xD
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#177 - 2014-06-18 22:05:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Baron' Soontir Fel
Thorin Matarielle wrote:


ROFL Bien comment of the day! ^^ :) Epic topic Zarnak look at all those salty Minmatard farmer tears... Cant solo the novice in my breacher lol... xD


Because nobody ever wants to PvP in <10mil ISK ship right? Everybody has 100mil SP and 100 billion ISK.

It's like you forget what it's like to PvP without level 5 skills across the board.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#178 - 2014-06-19 01:57:12 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Thorin Matarielle wrote:


ROFL Bien comment of the day! ^^ :) Epic topic Zarnak look at all those salty Minmatard farmer tears... Cant solo the novice in my breacher lol... xD


Because nobody ever wants to PvP in <10mil ISK ship right? Everybody has 100mil SP and 100 billion ISK.

It's like you forget what it's like to PvP without level 5 skills across the board.


When I started this game a wise man told me that I would not be truly lethal until I had 20m - 30m skillpoints. He was for the most part right. At that point I could fly a few ships perfectly with all the requisite skills at level 5. That doesn't mean you shouldn't pvp until you reach an arbitrary point - but it does mean that you should have realistic expectations. Fleets? Corporations with rookie programs and/or ship replacement? Friends to help you with fits? That's where someone interested in PvP should start. If you still want to solo you will learn a lot very quickly. But you should expect to lose more then you win.

We are in a game that is over a decade old. Not only do people have level 5 skills across the board, but they have them across multiple ships and races. On top of that - boosters, pirate implants, links... shall I go on? Your new people struggling solo with novice plexes in systems like Huola, Kourm, Siseide, or Sahtogas don't have a snowball's chance in hell once they are noticed.

A Breacher with two BCU and a couple hobs will push 150 DPS. Most T1 frigates can hit that mark. The people I see complaining the most are either farmers or those so enamored with kitey fits that they won't consider anything else. It's a shame about the latter but the benefits of the reduced farming far outweigh the price. I log in to a home system at 4% contested rather then 15%. I no longer have to deplex for hours every day. I can do things I want to do rather then what I have to do.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#179 - 2014-06-19 06:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
...or those so enamored with kitey fits that they won't consider anything else...


Kiting is a legitimate strategy. A PVE mechanic that nullifies kiting is unwelcome. It also kills unexpected breacher/atron anti kite scram boats from the meta thru lack of targets.

Less options + better. Rats =/= the answer.

Im not even convinced that the current occupancy stasis is a better condition than it was before the recent changes. Sure, its better for gallente and minmatar, but im not convinced its better for the war zone in general... Time will tell...
Thorin Matarielle
The All-Seeing Eye
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#180 - 2014-06-19 07:00:04 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:


Because nobody ever wants to PvP in <10mil ISK ship right? Everybody has 100mil SP and 100 billion ISK.

It's like you forget what it's like to PvP without level 5 skills across the board.



You believe or not, im not flying anything with lvl 4 skills. Each level on a faction frig means 20% damage. Thats a lot! It takes like uhm... 4-5 days to train it? If you like your ship it worth it if you dont, still worth it but you should find something you like. Pretty much all of my ship worth over 10mil or a lot more but you have to pay the price to be able to kill the rat in the novice lol. And yeah, I am also kiting a lot and I enjoy that kind of engagements because its much more complicated then brawling. Train that skill to 5 and learn to fit a ship and you wont have any problems even with the rats in the small. And the feeling when you kill that rat with a T1 kiter frig is another level of orgasm. Im happy with the changes but this cloak ban is *** WCS's should be banned from FW plexes but they are sitting backwards on that horse again... :)