Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Crosslinking to the Ships/Modules thread so that there is a record here, in the actual suggestions area. By tiers, I mean the deliberate nerfing of certain ships (in their fitting space, usually) simply because of their supposed place in the tier system. This eliminates hulls which provide viable combat roles from serious consideration. Balance of those hulls (bonuses, etc) is not the same issue, although it may be related.

Also, highlighting some of the key discussion points.




And the most succint description of the issue...

What seems to happen is favorite ships eventually "graduate" to tech II and all the races from the same hull tier get it at the same time, and then they are given specialization. This isn't proven to make them useful (Electronic Attack Ships) but it's a sort of intuitive way to take something of uncertain value and make it meaningful (even if it's a dud like Electronic Attack Ships).

It would probably be easier to sell to the population to instead create a Tech II variant for every hull, which makes the tiers less significant, pushes people to train more specific skills and possibly makes balancing easier... like at least pre-nerfing like they did for Destroyers.

I support tiericide.

To me, EVE is almost too rigid in some aspects (mostly ships) to be a sandbox. It's good for ships to specialize, but in alot of cases (like the Caldari HACs), they are OVERspecialized, and fit in niche roles that hardly ever come up, whereas there are other ships like Muninn and Vagabond that can be adapted to significantly more situations. Or Ishtar, even.

Un-gimping the cruisers currently being weakened for the sake of tiers would also mean that Caldari pilots wouldn't necessarily have to train hybrids to access their top-tier ships, which has caused LOADS of bawling recently. I don't understand why it should be easy to fit a Moa that can wreck someone's stuff with over 500 DPS after heat, while still having tank and a MWD, but if a Caracal wants to surpass 200 DPS it has to completely scrap tank, and TRY to speed tank while being far too slow to do it, and lacking the low slots for nanos or anything, and thus get stuck at 100km or die.

I also don't get why the Caracal has a fifth med slot that the Moa doesn't have. Inverse tiers?

Can you please be more specific as to where the 'imbalance' lies? The Caracal's fifth med?

Thats exactly the point, the Caracal is physically unable to be used in closer range scenarios, and it more or less has to be used at 100km. The Moa has a choice. You can make it a rail ship for long range or a blaster ship that still outranges the Thorax at reduced DPS.

You cannot fit a HAM Caracal.

This system can never be balanced and never will, honestly, I found the perfect picture to describe the way EVE is 'balanced'.

http://umop.com/images/rps15.jpg

This is pretty much what EVE is, if you take that and copy it twice, you have your tech 2 and tech 3 ships, I'm not saying simplify it because the amount of ships is what makes EVE so interesting, but you're going to have to decide which ship types will beat what and stick with that.

So have frigates beating battleships and destroyers beating frigates and so on.

Agreed.

Remove the tier system.

Add the ROLE system.

This can be achieved easily and gradually by simply adding a pg/cpu/slot/weapon hardpoint here or there. Maybe change a couple of ship bonuses. Increase material costs to make lower tier more expensive to build.

Start with Battlecruisers and work down towards frigates.

Battleships may already be fairly balanced in the tier system and kind of already have a role system to them.

Example of removing tier system from Caldari BC's:

Ferox:
+1 turret hardpoint.
(Maybe) +1 low/mid slot.
Increase base cost.
Job done!

That wasn't hard was it?

Prophecy: Agree with you there but limit the bonus to HAMs. Sticks to Amarr ideology and makes this ship a fantastic close range brawler.

Brutix: Agree but I would also like its bonuses changing to 5% Hybrid RoF and 10% Hybrid falloff.

Cyclone: I think that the only thing a Cyclone needs is more CPU. At a push +1 mid.

I don't understand why it takes CCP so long to balance ships

If we're into the specific changes realm now, I'll just drop my thoughts here. I'll talk Amarr cause that's what I'm most familiar with.

Frigates:

Excecutioner: +1 midslot, +1 lowslot, +base EHP, +pg/CPU as appropriate. Since the frigate class is well populated, this ship can stay in the extremely low cost bracket. It's survivability needs to go up to match other frigates or it'll never be used, but it can safely be left as low DPS. This also gives the Amarr a racial t1 tackle with 3 mids. A similar approach can be given to other races fast tackle frig, like the Atron.

Inquisitor: +1 low slot, + PG/CPU to tier3 level. Merge the 10% EM dmg boost down into 5% everything else boost, and replace the second bonus with an explosion velocity to rockets boost. the This ship is already high DPS (for Amarr) after the rocket change, and runs well with a rockets/neut fit. It is hampered only by fitting space and survivability. Should be balanced as a gank alternative to the Punisher's tank.

Crucifier: +1 mid, +1 low, +PG/CPU as appropriate. +10m^3 of drones (for a total of 2 light drones and 2 unbonused turrets). This should let it serve as EWAR and still carry a long point, and buff it's combat ability along the same paradigm as the Arbitrator and Sentinel without making it into a combat frigate. PG should be balanced in such a way that shield tanking with the extra mid is discouraged, because it's Amarr after all

Punisher: Unchanged. It's my opinion that the problem with this hull -that autocannons are more effective then the racial lasers- is due to the balance of lasers vs AC and not the hull itself. In particular, the obscenely low fitting cost of ACs. Discussion needed here.

Cruisers:

Arbitrator: -1 launcher, +1 turret. Increase PG by about 10%, allowing medium weapons to be fitted. This is already the best cruiser in the Amarr lineup, little change is needed.

Omen: Increase PG enough to allow high caliber lasers and a moderate tank. It's role is currently as a gunboat, but it suffers from not being able to fit a full set of guns and still be able to fit tank/prop to actually fight with.

Maller: +15m^3 of drones. Reduce cost. This is already a powerful ship with flexible fitting space. Alternately, rebalance in Khanid style with HAM bonus to give Amarr a damage type selection option.

Prophecy: A rebuild to a HAM focus is optimal, since options for adding larger turrets also allows for an increase in tank, which is already very strong. Should be balanced as a tanky alternative to the harbinger's gank.