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Restrict Watchlist
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Madbuster73
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-06-18 11:28:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Madbuster73
Watchlisting is one of the most used and easy intel assets at the moment.
People just have to put you on watchlist and provide free and easy instant intel.
There are alliances that have every single Super and Titan-pilot watchlisted and it makes it almost impossible nowadays to log in a SUPER or Titan pilot without the enemy instantly knowing it.
This makes boring gameplay and prevents covert CAPITAL operations.
This will also generate big-bloc power projection since nobody wants to fly his Super or Titan with smaller Alliances because they know that big blocs like Pandemic Legion have them watchlisted and will hunt them down as soon as they log in.
So there is only one choice left and that is to join a big bloc or loose your Super to them because they have you watchlisted.


I propose that people can only watchlist you if you accept it. in other words:
If somebody wants to watchlist you, you get a message wich asks you if you agree to have that person watchlist you.

This way people will actually have to do more active scouting and less metagaming in station.

And it will provide more capital action since people will be less scared to log in their capital ships without having the danger of being ganked by big alliances with lots of capital ships that are waiting for you to log in and see you on their watchlist.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#2 - 2014-06-18 11:32:31 UTC
Why would anyone watchlist anyone then?
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#3 - 2014-06-18 11:36:41 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Why would anyone watchlist anyone then?

Because you want to know when your friends log in.

I'm just answering your question, I'm not supporting the OP. Just want to make that clear.
Kaeda Maxwell
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#4 - 2014-06-18 11:41:29 UTC
I have one serious gripe with this;

Currently at least it's an equal intel playing field, small groups can just as easily watch list the Titans/Supers of large groups and thus know whether they are drawing response when they logon their own capital pilots. Or if said large groups have their stuff logged in to start with.

In a system where you would need visual presence to confirm Titans/Supers being logged on you place the intel advantage firmly with the larger organisation because they have more people (and alts) to keep large networks of observers in place.

I suspect that contrary to what you think your proposed change would accomplish it would actually increase the advantage of larger groups purely because they have more manpower for intel gathering.
Madbuster73
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2014-06-18 12:07:14 UTC
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
I have one serious gripe with this;

Currently at least it's an equal intel playing field, small groups can just as easily watch list the Titans/Supers of large groups and thus know whether they are drawing response when they logon their own capital pilots. Or if said large groups have their stuff logged in to start with.

In a system where you would need visual presence to confirm Titans/Supers being logged on you place the intel advantage firmly with the larger organisation because they have more people (and alts) to keep large networks of observers in place.

I suspect that contrary to what you think your proposed change would accomplish it would actually increase the advantage of larger groups purely because they have more manpower for intel gathering.



Actually not, since the larger groups have no idea when you log in and move your capital, they wont know where it is.
Also if the larger alliances see the smaller log in and they log in theirs, the smaller alliances have no other option then to stand down. This standing down is what is making it boring.

It would make a tremendous lot of work for the big alliances to observe everything, and the smaller alliances have more chance of getting in and out of a fight before the big alliances notice.
Dally Lama
Doomheim
#6 - 2014-06-18 12:09:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Dally Lama
Supported. There is no logical reasons why someone should know you've woken up in a station halfway across the cluster. Instant intel is lazy. If the person is important enough use locator agents and scout the systems yourself.

+1

EDIT: Perhaps locator agents could tell you if the person is awake or not. We can attach a bunch of rules and timers to it in order to keep it balanced (i.e. not instant intel once again).

New Fitting Window | Distances above 10km | Maximums for buy orders
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#7 - 2014-06-18 12:15:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Even though you are from TRI, but could you please employ the Search Function of the forum Google Search before posting things that have been posted here countless times before?

--

Dally Lama wrote:
Supported. There is no logical reasons why someone should know you've woken up in a station halfway across the cluster. Instant intel is lazy. If the person is important enough use locator agents and scout the systems yourself.

+1

EDIT: Perhaps locator agents could tell you if the person is awake or not. We can attach a bunch of rules and timers to it in order to keep it balanced (i.e. not instant intel once again).


Why is that? We live in a social age and as much as I despise Facebook and Twitter for what it shows us (I don't use that bullshit), as long as people use these services, there is no logical reason not to see if someone wakes up.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#8 - 2014-06-18 12:34:18 UTC
Madbuster73 wrote:
I propose that people can only watchlist you if you accept it. in other words:
If somebody wants to watchlist you, you get a message wich asks you if you agree to have that person watchlist you.


Another possibility is for interested characters to train a Watch List Delay skill. Untrained, watchlist works as now. Trained to level 1, there's a delay from you log on, and until those who have you watchlisted see you, of 1 minute. Likewise after you log off there's a delay of 1 minute before you actually indicate log-off on everybody's watch list.

Doubled at level 2 to 2 minutes, then 4 minutes, then 8 minutes, then 15 minutes at level 5.

That way, characters who find it worth the training time, such as capital pilots, can train this skill a bit, or a lot, to confound and confuse their enemies.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#9 - 2014-06-18 12:51:33 UTC
OP is a good idea. We work for every piece of intel we gather in the game except for two: Watchlists and Local. Local isn't going away anytime soon but there is no logical reason for being able to watchlist someone who doesn't agree to share that information

Salpad wrote:
Madbuster73 wrote:
I propose that people can only watchlist you if you accept it. in other words:
If somebody wants to watchlist you, you get a message wich asks you if you agree to have that person watchlist you.


Another possibility is for interested characters to train a Watch List Delay skill. Untrained, watchlist works as now. Trained to level 1, there's a delay from you log on, and until those who have you watchlisted see you, of 1 minute. Likewise after you log off there's a delay of 1 minute before you actually indicate log-off on everybody's watch list.

Doubled at level 2 to 2 minutes, then 4 minutes, then 8 minutes, then 15 minutes at level 5.

That way, characters who find it worth the training time, such as capital pilots, can train this skill a bit, or a lot, to confound and confuse their enemies.


This idea, however, is just painfully dim. How is adding an extra arbitrary skill to train that only exacerbates and confuses a bad design decision for both parties and doesn't improve gameplay in any manner going to help the situation?

Just make watchlisting on a consent only basis. Everybody will be happier.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
#10 - 2014-06-18 13:47:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Xaldafax Caerleon
Madbuster73 wrote:
Watchlisting is one of the most used and easy intel assets at the moment.
People just have to put you on watchlist and provide free and easy instant intel.
There are alliances that have every single capital-pilot watchlisted and it makes it almost impossible nowadays to log in a capital fleet without the enemy instantly knowing it.
This makes boring gameplay and prevents covert capital operations.


I propose that people can only watchlist you if you accept it. in other words:
If somebody wants to watchlist you, you get a message wich asks you if you agree to have that person watchlist you.

This way people will actually have to do more active scouting and less metagaming in station.

And it will provide more capital action since people will be less scared to log in their capital ships without having the danger of being ganked by big alliances with lots of capital ships that are waiting for you to log in and see you on their watchlist.



While I use a watch list for a specific person that I want to know is online it really is a cheap way of knowing who is playing. It is an exploit of game mechanics actually. Why should I know that someone is online on the other side of the galaxy just because they turned on their computer and logged in.

I agree it should be consent only BUT I want to add a feature to it...

Why not try to create some type of tracking device or skill set around this for those that do NOT consent. Maybe I can then use a locator scout to find that guy I want to track.. find him in a the system and somehow tag him with a tracking device or something. Then I can see he is online and maybe even find him. Of course there would need to be some way he could find and remove the tracking device with some skill and technology tool.

We have it now... tracking devices, gps, and scanners to detect the device and remove it. Why not have it here and expand the "tracking" area of EVE to be more fun than just "add them to watchlist and I know they are around".
Kaeda Maxwell
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#11 - 2014-06-18 14:49:46 UTC
Madbuster73 wrote:
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
I have one serious gripe with this;

Currently at least it's an equal intel playing field, small groups can just as easily watch list the Titans/Supers of large groups and thus know whether they are drawing response when they logon their own capital pilots. Or if said large groups have their stuff logged in to start with.

In a system where you would need visual presence to confirm Titans/Supers being logged on you place the intel advantage firmly with the larger organisation because they have more people (and alts) to keep large networks of observers in place.

I suspect that contrary to what you think your proposed change would accomplish it would actually increase the advantage of larger groups purely because they have more manpower for intel gathering.



Actually not, since the larger groups have no idea when you log in and move your capital, they wont know where it is.
Also if the larger alliances see the smaller log in and they log in theirs, the smaller alliances have no other option then to stand down. This standing down is what is making it boring.

It would make a tremendous lot of work for the big alliances to observe everything, and the smaller alliances have more chance of getting in and out of a fight before the big alliances notice.



We'll have to agree to disagree. Mostly because I think you severely underestimate the intel gathering capabilities of some of New Eden's larger entities.

The amount of smaller entities which will deploy capitals with any regularity or effectiveness is small enough that it wouldn't be that hard to keep them under reasonably effective surveillance. And then I'm not even taking into account how many medium sized entities are riddled with spies and people with divided loyalties.

Anyway, we'll just have to disagree I fear Big smile
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-06-18 14:50:03 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Even though you are from TRI, but could you please employ the Search Function of the forum Google Search before posting things that have been posted here countless times before?

--

Dally Lama wrote:
Supported. There is no logical reasons why someone should know you've woken up in a station halfway across the cluster. Instant intel is lazy. If the person is important enough use locator agents and scout the systems yourself.

+1

EDIT: Perhaps locator agents could tell you if the person is awake or not. We can attach a bunch of rules and timers to it in order to keep it balanced (i.e. not instant intel once again).


Why is that? We live in a social age and as much as I despise Facebook and Twitter for what it shows us (I don't use that bullshit), as long as people use these services, there is no logical reason not to see if someone wakes up.


People willingly post on these services. Why can't the watchlist also be limited to only those willingly sharing the info?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-06-18 14:53:35 UTC
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
Madbuster73 wrote:
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
I have one serious gripe with this;

Currently at least it's an equal intel playing field, small groups can just as easily watch list the Titans/Supers of large groups and thus know whether they are drawing response when they logon their own capital pilots. Or if said large groups have their stuff logged in to start with.

In a system where you would need visual presence to confirm Titans/Supers being logged on you place the intel advantage firmly with the larger organisation because they have more people (and alts) to keep large networks of observers in place.

I suspect that contrary to what you think your proposed change would accomplish it would actually increase the advantage of larger groups purely because they have more manpower for intel gathering.



Actually not, since the larger groups have no idea when you log in and move your capital, they wont know where it is.
Also if the larger alliances see the smaller log in and they log in theirs, the smaller alliances have no other option then to stand down. This standing down is what is making it boring.

It would make a tremendous lot of work for the big alliances to observe everything, and the smaller alliances have more chance of getting in and out of a fight before the big alliances notice.



We'll have to agree to disagree. Mostly because I think you severely underestimate the intel gathering capabilities of some of New Eden's larger entities.

The amount of smaller entities which will deploy capitals with any regularity or effectiveness is small enough that it wouldn't be that hard to keep them under reasonably effective surveillance. And then I'm not even taking into account how many medium sized entities are riddled with spies and people with divided loyalties.

Anyway, we'll just have to disagree I fear Big smile


Spies and watchers are network you have to build/work for. If people let spies in their corp/alliance/on their watchlist, it's their own damn fault. The game giving the info pretty much free of effort is wrong.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#14 - 2014-06-18 14:58:19 UTC
How about:
Make watchlists agreement restricted and mutually visible; any side can cancel the watching.
Add surveillance agents, like locator agents that let you watch one person as a service, limited time, limited number, costing ISK and being one sided.
Bonus: Surveillance agents could be used for counter surveillance cancelling a random other agent on you if it is the same agent level or lower than the one you use.

Actually, the whole intelligence gathering aspect could use being aggregated into a whole feature of its own.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Blakow
Doomheim
#15 - 2014-06-18 15:06:39 UTC
Absolutely terrible idea. The watchlist works great as is.

If anything, I'd like to see a watchlist added as an API so we can do some real intel gathering :)
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#16 - 2014-06-18 15:15:04 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
How about:
Make watchlists agreement restricted and mutually visible; any side can cancel the watching.
Add surveillance agents, like locator agents that let you watch one person as a service, limited time, limited number, costing ISK and being one sided.
Bonus: Surveillance agents could be used for counter surveillance cancelling a random other agent on you if it is the same agent level or lower than the one you use.

Actually, the whole intelligence gathering aspect could use being aggregated into a whole feature of its own.


That's the idea. The mechanic could easily be worked into the locator agents as they stand. Locate the person for the usual fee, once they are found you can have them observed for a period of time for an extra fee.

Alternatively: Players do this themselves and we see a whole lot of extra paranoia as everyone tries to figure out who the mole is.

I like both, honestly.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
Dig Mangeiri
#17 - 2014-06-18 16:30:54 UTC
+1

The system doesn't make sense at all.

It's nice to know when your friends are on though.

That's about it.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#18 - 2014-06-18 16:37:30 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

People willingly post on these services. Why can't the watchlist also be limited to only those willingly sharing the info?


Why should it? By logging in you agree to be seen by people, ie. you are willing to use these services. Similar to the policy "You undock and agree that other people shoot at you."

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2014-06-18 16:42:44 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

People willingly post on these services. Why can't the watchlist also be limited to only those willingly sharing the info?


Why should it? By logging in you agree to be seen by people, ie. you are willing to use these services. Similar to the policy "You undock and agree that other people shoot at you."


As long as they are in the same system as me sure I have no problem with that because we currently can't really get rid of local. Not half way across the universe just because I was once seen so people could log my character name. Undocking does not let the other player kill your ship if he is not in the same system. Hell he even pretty much can only do it from the same grid.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#20 - 2014-06-18 16:48:09 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

People willingly post on these services. Why can't the watchlist also be limited to only those willingly sharing the info?


Why should it? By logging in you agree to be seen by people, ie. you are willing to use these services. Similar to the policy "You undock and agree that other people shoot at you."


As long as they are in the same system as me sure I have no problem with that because we currently can't really get rid of local. Not half way across the universe just because I was once seen so people could log my character name.


Why not half-way across the universe? That's the point of secret surveillance. Bugs and wire-taps work in the same fashion. And you are also not asked for permission.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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